Originally Posted by Wes84

Here is my thought on the debate about hunting:

I am not an avid hunter, but I am not against the practice either (population control reasons). That said, I think Eric makes a perfectly rational point in that it is unethical to kill animals for sport. Asking what have living creatures done to deserve a death for fun is a question worthy of asking.

Honestly, I've only ever been in one situation where the animals that were killed hunting weren't also eaten. And that was hunting wolves in an area where they are known to kill a couple of people in the villages every winter (although in that case, the pelts were saved, and something happened to the meat; maybe fed to pigs?). The fact that hunting is fun doesn't mean that fun is its only purpose, or the only benefit derived from the death of whatever animals. The incidence of that in the real world is, I suspect, vanishingly small.

Originally Posted by Wes84

Here is my thought on the debate about hunting:

I am not an avid hunter, but I am not against the practice either (population control reasons). That said, I think Eric makes a perfectly rational point in that it is unethical to kill animals for sport. Asking what have living creatures done to deserve a death for fun is a question worthy of asking. This type of thinking is not particular to those on the lunatic fringe. Their are a lot people that I have met in my lifetime that are sane and capable of forming rational thoughts that make the argument Eric does. To add to this, all of these people that I know are not from San Francisco.

I don't really have much of a stake in this debate either because personally I could care less. I just don't like people being characterized in a way that is not factual. It's another form being prejudice. I'm not saying what you are saying about some people isn't true, but I don't know if I would say that describes the majority of people who hunt. It probably more accurately describes the minority of people who hunt. Every hunter that I have known in my life hunts because they like to eat the meat. I have never known anyone who has not brought the animal home, cleaned it and eaten it. I'm not saying they don't like the sport aspect of it either, but the main purpose in hunting of all the guys I know who hunt, is for the meat.

I've been listening to these guys talk about this for over 20 years now. They get all excited before hunting season opens and start talking when they can get together and go. The conversation then always immediately shifts to how good pheasant is or how much they love deer meat. Next thing you know, they are swapping recipes. It's the same conversation, year after year.

Originally Posted by ASB65

I don't really have much of a stake in this debate either because personally I could care less. I just don't like people being characterized in a way that is not factual. It's another form being prejudice. I'm not saying what you are saying about some people isn't true, but I don't know if I would say that describes the majority of people who hunt. It probably more accurately describes the minority of people who hunt. Every hunter that I have known in my life hunts because they like to eat the meat. I have never known anyone who has not brought the animal home, cleaned it and eaten it. I'm not saying they don't like the sport aspect of it either, but the main purpose in hunting of all the guys I know who hunt, is for the meat.

I've been listening to these guys talk about this for over 20 years now. They get all excited before hunting season opens and start talking when they can get together and go. The conversation then always immediately shifts to how good pheasant is or how much they love deer meat. Next thing you know, they are swapping recipes. It's the same conversation, year after year.

That's similar to my experiences with hunting. Nearly all of the hunters I know make use of the animals they kill, thus nothing goes to waste (ok, the skin does). I typically stay out of these debates, but having experiences with hunting growing up, and with nonhunters in college, I feel that I have a good understanding of where both sides are coming from.

I am seeing an interesting thing on Facebook. I am friended with the younger sister of a high school buddy - she is a born-again Christian in the Dallas, TX region with a whole network of born-agains on FB. I have debated some among them who have some serious right-wing libertarian views. Interestingly, the discussion among them is coming down hard against Palin's use of "blood libel". I was actually surprised, but maybe shouldn't have been.

Anyone else got their ear to the ground in Red State America?

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

I am seeing an interesting thing on Facebook. I am friended with the younger sister of a high school buddy - she is a born-again Christian in the Dallas, TX region with a whole network of born-agains on FB. I have debated some among them who have some serious right-wing libertarian views. Interestingly, the discussion among them is coming down hard against Palin's use of "blood libel". I was actually surprised, but maybe shouldn't have been.

Anyone else got their ear to the ground in Red State America?

I live in Texas in the Dallas region. I haven't seen any comments from my Texas friends regarding this issue. We are just mainly bitching about the cold on our facebook posts. But then most of my friends rarely post political opinions on their facebook page. Politics is such a sensitive issue around here, that I think most people just don't want to go there. But then we live in a small town too. You don't make enemies over anything in a small town if you have any sense at all. If I do hear something from any of my conservative or born again friends regarding Palin, I'll let you know.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

But if southerners are republicans now because of "The whole south used to be solidly Democrat. Guns, abortion, other conservative issues turned it." I'd say that's pretty backwards thinking anyway, whether it includes racism or not.

But in some southern states, the voters split by race, red or blue, in numbers like 80 to 90 percent. You'd have to think that all whites agree with themselves on all issues, and all blacks on all issues too, to dismiss the possibility that this is a racial divide.

The history could not be more clear. The south became solidly Democratic in about 1860 for one reason, and one reason only: civil war and reconstruction and the issue of black rights. The Republicans then were the majority party of the North and the party of Lincoln and black freedom. The Democrats were the party that hosted and tolerated the pro-slavery, pro-confederacy southerners, so white southerners became Democrats. And blacks were denied their right to vote.

Fast forward to 1964. Congress passes the civil rights bill. Freedom Summer begins black registration in the South. Barry Goldwater carries 5 southern states by wide margins for the first time since Reconstruction. 1965: voting rights act passed which enforces black right to vote. 1968: Nixon appeals to the South for votes and appoints Agnew VP. Ever since then, the only time southern states vote Democratic is if a southerner is running for president; except in 1968 Texas voted for LBJ's vice president. Bottom line: when the racial policies of the Democratic Party changed, the South went solidly Republican, and stayed there.

I note that Virginia and North Carolina (not to mention Florida) broke the spell and voted for Obama. I was hoping that was the start of a new day. But now the Tea Party has come along...

Okay, you are one of those. No point in trying to explain anything to you, provide an alternative viewpoint, because you have it all figured out, and you are clearly here to enlighten all of us morons. It couldn't possibly be any way other than the way you see it. I hope for your sake you are never in a situation where you or your family are in any real danger waiting for the police to come save you.

Good luck with all that, and thank God we have a Constitution to protect us from know it all's who would impose ill-conceived laws on the rest of us.

Come on, Sean. Friend is not a verb.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Originally Posted by Dedalus

thank God we have a Constitution to protect us from know it all's who would impose ill-conceived laws on the rest of us.

I can only hope fondly that people realize some day that we do need good laws to protect us.

The facts I spoke of, speak for themselves, not about me.

Originally Posted by radind

It’s not the raw stats that are in question. It is the interpretation. The fact that ~ 90% of blacks vote Democratic does not constitute proof that race is the main issue. Just as the fact that ~60% of whites voted Republican does not provide proof that race is the main issue. And I have seen some claim that racism is at work, which I maintain is an unsubstantiated assertion.

It's not 60, it's 90%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Green
But guns may indeed one issue that splits up the United States. I say let red or Heartland America split up from those of us who don't want to live in fear, and form their own wild west sub-nation. Then you guys in Red America wouldn't have to listen to us blue folks harp on you about guns. I think it would be great. Smaller is beautiful.

Well gee Eric. I live in a solidly blue state with one of the most pro-firearm population and state constitution in the country (This basically describes all of New England with the exception of Massachusettes). What should we do?

Gee, I guess there will some folks in Blue America who are pro-firearm. It does seem like about 37 states are even against gun control, even if some people in them are for it. There are other issues of concern too, aren't there? I really am kidding in actually answering your question "what should we do?" I'm not telling you where to go. I'm sure you are fine where you are, since you don't seem to be prohibited from having that gun by your bed.

Originally Posted by James50

radind, I have been down this road before. Eric will not accept anything positive about any state which votes Republican nor will he visit such states. He makes his decisions about the worth of a people based on how the majority votes. Its very simple - Democratic: good; Republican: bad. It is really useless to argue with him. He has facts but his facts are all about elections. No other facts are important to him and certainly having people who actually live in the south talk about the south matters not at all.

Of course, he thinks we are the provincial ones.

James50

One thing for sure about the words we use and what we say to each other. It is important not to be too offensive. It is also important not to take things too personally and get too offended. Letting it go is sometimes a good thing.

Originally Posted by Tone70

Handguns are quite useful for self defense. Particularly indoors. How do you feel about them being available for purchase, but very expensive? Think it would encourage people to monitor (i.e.secure) their weapons or no?

Making something prohibitively expensive historically creates black markets. Law abiding citizens will have less access to weapons; criminals (and the government) will have more access to weaponless citizens. Instead I encourage everyone who wishes to own a firearm to train, train, and train with it. Then train some more. There is no shortage of gun ranges, training classes, instructional videos and books available. There are many places around the country that offer very serious, very regimented firearm operations instruction to everyone from soldier to police to civilian and these classes are often more in depth than what the military provides.

Having the ability to take a life if necessary is a great power to wield and huge responsibility. It should be treated and respected as such.

I am not interested in any solutions that remove personal responsibility from the individual.

Originally Posted by The Rani

If you read her entire speech, it's actually pretty good.
That a news story distorts the content, making it all about two words, is to be expected.

I've said it before ... come on people, stop playing into their hands. Read things for yourself and make up your own mind.

I'm sorry, this is too much. There is no one more media-savvy and sound-bite happy than Palin. She would never have used those words if she did not absolutely intend them to be the headline on every web page in the country. They were probably suggested to her by her pal Bill Kristol. . .

Originally Posted by David Krein

Come on, Sean. Friend is not a verb.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Thanks to Mark Zuckenburg, it is now. You have to keep up with the times.

Originally Posted by The Rani

I've said it before ... come on people, stop playing into their hands. Read things for yourself and make up your own mind.

Sigh...

Still with 'em, I see.

Originally Posted by ASB65

Yep, same thing happened down here in Texas after Obama was elected. All these people feared with a Democrat in the White House, there would be tougher gun laws. It didn't happen. But this is a highly emotionally charged issue for gun owners and hunters.

Indeed, and only the gun dealers profited from the paranoia.

Originally Posted by ASB65

I would imagine that Wisconsin, Iowa, Indiana and so on have similar laws. But since I have never lived there, I can't say for certain. But I would be surprised if they didn't.

Ok, I do want clear up one misconception of Illinois and it being a blue state. Yes, Illinois is considered a blue state because of Chicago. All the folks in Chicago cancel out the others in the rest of the state because the high concentration of the population of that city, which is primarily Democrat. If you get about an hour outside of the suburbs you will find most of Illinois, which is rural, is really pretty conservative. The liberals are for the most part are concentrated in the far northeastern corner of that state. But geographically, most of people through out the state aren't. And when you get into southern Illinois. Forget it. There are very few democrats down there. That part of the state might as well be Kentucky.

Don't I know it.

One of my old adversaries was from far southern IL. His town glows in the dark from the Union Carbide plant.

Originally Posted by Dedalus

Okay, you are one of those. No point in trying to explain anything to you, provide an alternative viewpoint, because you have it all figured out, and you are clearly here to enlighten all of us morons. It couldn't possibly be any way other than the way you see it. I hope for your sake you are never in a situation where you or your family are in any real danger waiting for the police to come save you.

Good luck with all that, and thank God we have a Constitution to protect us from know it all's who would impose ill-conceived laws on the rest of us.

Don't worry... take a look at that Gallup poll I posted earlier. Americans are increasingly in favor of their Constitutional rights. They're not giving them up any time soon.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

. Whereas the left was able to get away with this kind of wanton slander and blood libel during the 90s, nobody is buying it now. In fact, people are getting a very clear lesson about who it actually is that has been poisoning the public discourse with divisive rhetoric.

The left is imploding, all of this is backfiring on them, and they don't even realize it.

Hey! Do you write for Palin?? I never heard that expression before tonite. Did you write this before she said it?

Man this is weird, do you guys have a phone tree that calls you with the buzz words of the week?

Does it really mean lies told about Jews drinking babies blood? Where'd you hear that expression?

Originally Posted by ASB65

I live in Texas in the Dallas region. I haven't seen any comments from my Texas friends regarding this issue. We are just mainly bitching about the cold on our facebook posts. But then most of my friends rarely post political opinions on their facebook page. Politics is such a sensitive issue around here, that I think most people just don't want to go there. But then we live in a small town too. You don't make enemies over anything in a small town if you have any sense at all. If I do hear something from any of my conservative or born again friends regarding Palin, I'll let you know.

She started by putting, "Blood libel? . . . Really?" and there have been 48 posts so far.

Originally Posted by David Krein

Come on, Sean. Friend is not a verb.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Common parlance on Facebook. "To Friend": to make/accept a "Friend Request". Just stayin' hip.

Originally Posted by Weave

The Liberal media Im referring to is the cabal of reporters, correspondents, actors, directors and writers who largely inhabit the major networks, the NY Times, WaPo and many news magazines as well as the entertainment industry. Many of them are from privileged backgrounds and attended prep school and Ivy league schools together and really havent a clue who most middle class Americans live. Like you, they consider anyone who doesnt reside in Beverly Hills, San fran or Manhatten as a dumb hick who cannot think for himself. Thier attitude is on display daily in the industry they work in. Notice how many "new" anchors and personalities are fomer staffers to Democrats....Russert (deceased) George Step-on-all-of-us, Brian Williams.
Jim Carney from Time who is now Bidens spokesman...it goes on and on. One big incestuous group of sycophants and backslappers.....

See what I mean, it's the Civil War Redux. THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT LIBERALS!!! THEY ARE THE YANKEE ESTABLISHMENT!!!!!!!!! THATS WHY YOU HATE THEM. And frankly I am not a big fan either.

BUT THEY ARE CONSERVATIVE ... OLIGARCH WANNA BEs. Look, these people are not leftists. They are not socialists. Or communists. They are house slaves. Leftists dislike the establishment as much as you do.

You know, the downtrodden whites in America know something is wrong. They just don't know what.

YOU ARE RIGHT!!! SOMETHING IS WRONG, but the crazy blather of the Palins and Limbaughs, and Fox News IS A TRICK!!!!! TO CONFUSE YOU INTO LETTING THEM STEAL EVERYTHING NOT NAILED DOWN.

It is a trick designed to turn the excluded against each other. This isn't geographic, or racial. It doesn't have anything to do with gender or gender preference. It doesn't have anything to do with Christians or Jews or Arabs. IT HAS TO DO WITH MONEY AND POWER CONCENTRATED AT THE TOP.

Don't think for one minute I believe the main stream media. The establishment is not only dangerous because it is greedy, but because it is stupid. And it is stupid because it is too inbred. That is why we need more democracy. in a way I understand your frustration. No Matter which way you turn there is a wall. So maybe that's why right wingers turn to their guns, and left wingers to their organic gardens. Me, I am going for cookies.

Originally Posted by jadams

See what I mean, it's the Civil War Redux. THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT LIBERALS!!! THEY ARE THE YANKEE ESTABLISHMENT!!!!!!!!! THATS WHY YOU HATE THEM.

BUT THEY ARE CONSERVATIVE ... OLIGARCH WANNA BEs. Look, these people are not leftists. They are not socialists. Or communists. Leftists dislike the establishment as much as you do.

You know, the downtrodden whites in America know something is wrong. They don't know what.

YOU ARE RIGHT!!!? SOMETHING IS WRONG, but the crazy blather of the Palins and Limbaughs, and Fox News IS A TRICK!!!!! TO CONFUSE YOU INTO LETTING THEM STEAL EVERYTHING NOT NAILED DOWN.

Caps lock is not needed.

Originally Posted by Rose1992

Caps lock is not needed.

It is my constitutional right to stockpile and fire as many caps as I want. Are you some kind of commie to deny me my rights as a natural born American? Wanna cookie? They are very yummy. Especially on a cold night by a warm fire.

(I don't know how to bold things so I must use the tools at hand)

Originally Posted by Xer H

I really do, after hearing the water cooler conversations, seeing the Facebook posts, hearing the radio call-ins, reading online blogs, etc. that we're getting ever closer to a realization -- of the majority, anyway -- that things are horribly wrong and something big must be done to right them. And people are walking away from the talking heads that want us to keep fighting each other, rather than the destruction of our country.

I would like to think you are right, there. To a great extent I think you are. As deeply partisan as we are on these forums, one can find evidence of similar partisanship in other places. The disgust at both political parties by more and more people seems to be mounting. I also believe that The People will continue voting whatever party is more or less in power out of power so long as the vague 'something is horribly wrong' feeling persists.

People are aware that the system is broken. What we haven't got is an articulate advocate with fixes that can attract enough followers to matter. Said individual or group has to care more about America and the people who vote than power or money or becoming part of the elite.

I don't care at all for the Tea Party's policies. I don't care for the aspect of the Tea Party that hints at violence. I don't care for the aspect of the Tea Party that wants to cut taxes more than it wants to balance budgets.

But the anger at Washington I can entirely appreciate. I sense a similar anger among my liberal friends, on line and off. It is getting rather obvious that there is a need for a Hercules to come along and clean the stables.

But there is no common vision for what ought to replace that which needs to be torn down.