Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Why is it offensive to you for me to be against hunting? I have that right, and the right to say so, and why. And why do you feel it is civilized to go shoot animals for sport? Why not take up another sport? And no I'm not telling you to do it. I said that before.

Does your state have good gun control laws? No. Does it allow people to carry concealed weapons? Yes. Bottom line, your state is barbaric to that extent, because you guys think you need to carry weapons to defend yourselves instead of depending on civilization to do it. It is a culture of fear.

Where am I wrong? Rationally?

Horsepucky. Minnesota is one of the most progressive states in the country. The poor and disabled have state health coverage. We have very good environmental laws. We have the best educational system in the country. And you call us barbaric because we like to hunt? How DARE you!!!

If you are are any indication what the "Left" in California is like then it deserves the scorn it gets from the rest of the country.

Originally Posted by jadams

It is my constitutional right to stockpile and fire as many caps as I want. Are you some kind of commie to deny me my rights as a natural born American? Wanna cookie? They are very yummy. Especially on a cold night by a warm fire.

(I don't know how to bold things so I must use the tools at hand)

Highlight the text you wish to bold, then click the bold B just above and to the left of the text window.

Originally Posted by Wes84

Here is my thought on the debate about hunting:

I am not an avid hunter, but I am not against the practice either (population control reasons). That said, I think Eric makes a perfectly rational point in that it is unethical to kill animals for sport. Asking what have living creatures done to deserve a death for fun is a question worthy of asking. This type of thinking is not particular to those on the lunatic fringe. Their are a lot people that I have met in my lifetime that are sane and capable of forming rational thoughts that make the argument Eric does. To add to this, all of these people that I know are not from San Francisco.

City folks are completely cut off from Nature, even most self-professed Greens. To them a deer is Bambi, not a part of the ecological food web that it is, they are completely ignorant about issues about overpopulation in the deep population without predation, and then bitch when deer destroy their gardens. Humans are a predator species, we eat meat.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

Highlight the text you wish to bold, then click the bold B just above and to the left of the text window.

I can't see any such thing. I usually just look at what someone did in their post, after I quote it. I could see that you can type lower-case left-bracket b right-bracket before the words I want to bold, and left-bracket slash b right-bracket afterward.

Quote me and see what I did.

Originally Posted by ASB65

I don't really have much of a stake in this debate either because personally I could care less. I just don't like people being characterized in a way that is not factual. It's another form being prejudice. I'm not saying what you are saying about some people isn't true, but I don't know if I would say that describes the majority of people who hunt. It probably more accurately describes the minority of people who hunt. Every hunter that I have known in my life hunts because they like to eat the meat. I have never known anyone who has not brought the animal home, cleaned it and eaten it. I'm not saying they don't like the sport aspect of it either, but the main purpose in hunting of all the guys I know who hunt, is for the meat.

I've been listening to these guys talk about this for over 20 years now. They get all excited before hunting season opens and start talking when they can get together and go. The conversation then always immediately shifts to how good pheasant is or how much they love deer meat. Next thing you know, they are swapping recipes. It's the same conversation, year after year.

Venison burgers are Da Bomb!

Originally Posted by David Krein

Come on, Sean. Friend is not a verb.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

It is now! Damn the Grammar Nazis!

Originally Posted by Odin

City folks are completely cut off from Nature, even most self-professed Greens. To them a deer is Bambi, not a part of the ecological food web that it is, they are completely ignorant about issues about overpopulation in the deep population without predation, and then bitch when deer destroy their gardens. Humans are a predator species, we eat meat.

We city green liberals are fairly well-informed. You have deeply offended me with your post. You think I am ignorant, cut off, etc...

Humans are omnivores, and can get along quite well as vegetarians. These days you don't have to shoot animals yourself in order to eat meat, or be well fed. The ecological food web works fine without us intervening with our technology. If humans don't ban and kill wolves and other real predators, then the deer population does not get too big.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

I'm sorry, this is too much. There is no one more media-savvy and sound-bite happy than Palin. She would never have used those words if she did not absolutely intend them to be the headline on every web page in the country. They were probably suggested to her by her pal Bill Kristol. . .

It's dog-whistle code-speak to her base, and probably a subtle insult to Gifford, who is Jewish.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

I'm sorry, this is too much. There is no one more media-savvy and sound-bite happy than Palin. She would never have used those words if she did not absolutely intend them to be the headline on every web page in the country. They were probably suggested to her by her pal Bill Kristol. . .

Sarah Palin used the words blood libel grossly outside their ordinary use. If she saw someone like Bill Kristol use them for rhetorical effect to describe one of the oldest and most devastating lies against Jews and compare perhaps some Palestinian propaganda of similar vitriol but also similar fraudulence, she put them into a context in which they are never used.

Sarah Palin knows how to use words and symbols for maximal impact -- but she doesn't know how to use them judiciously. She is the sort who soups up a race car yet removes the brakes because those might slow her down. You do have to stop the carat the end of the race, don't you?

Originally Posted by Odin

Venison burgers are Da Bomb!

They've got nothing at all on venison lasagna.

Oh yeah... 'ats-a good-a bambi.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Sarah Palin knows how to use words and symbols for maximal impact -- but she doesn't know how to use them judiciously. She is the sort who soups up a race car yet removes the brakes because those might slow her down. You do have to stop the carat the end of the race, don't you?

I would think you'd need breaks a lot sooner than that. Without breaks, you either can't get going very fast on the straight part of the track, or you get into a lot of trouble when you get to the curve. Breaks are needed to move fast.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

I would like to think you are right, there. To a great extent I think you are. As deeply partisan as we are on these forums, one can find evidence of similar partisanship in other places. The disgust at both political parties by more and more people seems to be mounting. I also believe that The People will continue voting whatever party is more or less in power out of power so long as the vague 'something is horribly wrong' feeling persists.

People are aware that the system is broken. What we haven't got is an articulate advocate with fixes that can attract enough followers to matter. Said individual or group has to care more about America and the people who vote than power or money or becoming part of the elite.

I don't care at all for the Tea Party's policies. I don't care for the aspect of the Tea Party that hints at violence. I don't care for the aspect of the Tea Party that wants to cut taxes more than it wants to balance budgets.

But the anger at Washington I can entirely appreciate. I sense a similar anger among my liberal friends, on line and off. It is getting rather obvious that there is a need for a Hercules to come along and clean the stables.

But there is no common vision for what ought to replace that which needs to be torn down.

Amen. Amen. Do you believe it might be too early in the shift to a new mode of production for a big change to occur? Are we ready to tip over into 21 century jobs. Do we know what they are? Is the old broken down capitalist system holding us back? When will be ready? Is our old governmental system holding us back. What kind do we need?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Catch' em and lock 'em up, and take away their guns.

And its just that easy. Bad dog, no gun for you. You are so incredibly naive.

Originally Posted by Dedalus

And its just that easy. Bad dog, no gun for you. You are so incredibly naive.

It's not easy, but it's the only way to get the guns off the streets and out of criminal hands. Let the police do their job. Reduce the criminal population, and the population of guns.

The way to perpetual violence, like in Tuscon Arizona and many other places: give up, assume there will always be lots of criminals with guns, cut off all rehabilitation and social programs (the Republican program iow), and allow everyone to carry guns and outgun the police. Do nothing except pack heat by your bed, fully loaded and ready for intruders.

That way doesn't work either. The guns are stolen by the criminals, or used by the owners no matter how law abiding, or used by friends and family accidentally.

Americans such as you D. need to decide sooner or later whether we ever want to live in a civilized society. Right now we don't apparently, to judge by comments by you, copperfield, and some others here; and yes James, by how too many Americans vote. And how few effective gun controls laws there are in the USA.

I didn't like westerns when I was a kid, and I don't like them in real life in heartland America today.

I know, if I speak my mind, I am close minded. If you speak your mind, you are not. That is perfectly logical.

But not that there is anything wrong with you speaking your mind. That's what discussions are for. I welcome it. Best wishes to you in gun land. Be careful, if you can; it's very dangerous. Happy trails.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I disagree with Amy, Copperfield, you and anyone else who believes in the 2nd Amendment.
I think the fact that Americans have this obsession, or fetish, with guns, is the primary index that we are a backwards, barbaric society that doesn't know the meaning of the word "civilized." We now live in a society where you can't walk anywhere on the streets without fearing that someone might pull a gun on you; whether they own that gun legally or illegally. There are too many guns. There ought to be none.

Thus speaks Eric and so we should all bow down to him and give up our fundamental rights. Not a chance!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

The only way to get guns out of the hands of thugs is to make them illegal, and enforce the law. That's what people in NY and LA have decided, because they KNOW. You notwithstanding Roadbuilder.

Yes, just like the War on Drugs and Prohibition. How is that working out?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

And no, I don't want to visit "gun land" Heartland America. I value my life, and really don't want to associate with folks who carry guns and are afraid for their lives because of what their neighbors or some thugs from down the street might do.

It's a pity because I have spent much time in such places. People mind their manners and their own business. Truth is, the thugs tend not to last very long in such places.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I understand both sides of this issue. I know about fear, and about fun toys. Just because one understands both sides of an issue, does not mean one cannot take a stand on it.

Eric, I thought I explained this before. Please read this very carefully:
GUNS ARE NOT TOYS!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I say let red or Heartland America split up from those of us who don't want to live in fear, and form their own wild west sub-nation. Then you guys in Red America wouldn't have to listen to us blue folks harp on you about guns. I think it would be great. Smaller is beautiful.

I do believe that this is the first sensible thing you have suggested. Unfortunately, the last time anyone tried, they got invaded, had their cities burned and then got to suffer the indignity of being occupied during the Reconstruction, all in the name of the sacred Union. Such a pity, since it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides to have let them go in peace.

Originally Posted by jadams

Hey! Do you write for Palin?? I never heard that expression before tonite. Did you write this before she said it?

Man this is weird, do you guys have a phone tree that calls you with the buzz words of the week?

Does it really mean lies told about Jews drinking babies blood? Where'd you hear that expression?

I think we read the same article. As I stated earlier, it is an accurate term. That's probably why I repeated it.

For example:

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' blood is on Sarah Palin's hands

Originally Posted by Galen

Thus speaks Eric and so we should all bow down to him and give up our fundamental rights. Not a chance!

Owning a gun is not a fundamental right, just cause some of you think so. Not in a civilized society. But I realize you're not going to change your mind anytime soon. But even so, you still resist reasonable gun control laws. What's the matter with you?

Yes, just like the War on Drugs and Prohibition. How is that working out?

Guns are not addictive substances. They are dangerous products that kill people.

It's a pity because I have spent much time in such places. People mind their manners and their own business. Truth is, it is the thugs that don't tend to last very long in such places.

You can keep your town. Maybe I don't like the way it's run.

I guess the thugs get shot down there. I'd rather lock them up and rehabilitate them. A different culture I live in, I guess.

Eric, I thought I explained this before. Please read this very carefully:
GUNS ARE NOT TOYS!!!!!!

Uh, it is you guys who keep referring to how much you love guns because you like to go hunting.

I do believe Eric this is the first sensible thing you have suggested. Unfortunately, the last time anyone tried this they got invaded, had their cities burned and then got to suffer the indignity of being occupied during the Reconstruction. A pity really, since it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Catch' em and lock 'em up, and take away their guns.

Yes, the universal solution ban it and lock everyone jail.

We already imprison more people per capita than any other nation on Earth. Is there any chance that this one sentence yours, substituting anything else for guns, is the reason that our society is getting more violent. After all if they resist then men with badges will show up and shoot them but because the government it doing it, well that’s just peachy.

Oh, I get it, you are just against freelance violence.

Both the Democrats and Republicans are guilty of this.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

I think we read the same article. As I stated earlier, it is an accurate term. That's probably why I repeated it.

For example:

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' blood is on Sarah Palin's hands

Wow, interesting article. I only wish the Earp Brothers were back to enforce their gun laws. Shootout at the OK Corral happened in HER district! That's ironic too considering some of my earlier comments about it. That's what you JPT and Galen and copperfield etc. idealize, and even Giffords, out of political expediency no doubt.

No, I don't want to go there. That doesn't mean I think all the people there are bad, James. Overall, the culture of the place and many more like it (I'm sure the places Galen visits among them), does not appeal to me. When I decide to travel, I'll go to Europe or Asia instead. Far more interesting than the OK Corral, thank you very much. How utterly boring!

Originally Posted by Galen

Yes, the universal solution ban it and lock everyone jail.

We already imprison more people per capita than any other nation on Earth. Is there any chance that this one sentence yours, substituting anything else for guns, is the reason that our society is getting more violent. After all if they resist then men with badges will show up and shoot them but because it is the government doing it that is just peachy.

I get it, you are just against freelance violence.

Both the Democrats and Republicans are guilty of this.

Most people we lock up are minorities due to profiling, for non-violent offenses we should not be holding people for anyway, repeat offenders not rehabilitated, etc. Yes we do lock up too many people. But if there are violent criminals on the street shooting people, we should lock them up, and take away their guns. Gun ownership should be as restrictive as the community wishes it to be.

And it's too bad you Republicans want to take away all the programs that help people that might help prevent some of the criminal activity. Just join the Tea Party instead. I'm Taxed Enough Already. Just cut all the spending; that's the answer; yeah!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Owning a gun is not a fundamental right, just cause some of you think so. Not in a civilized society. But I realize you're not going to change your mind anytime soon. But even so, you still resist reasonable gun control laws. What's the matter with you?

Nothing at all, I am doing just great.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Guns are not addictive substances. They are dangerous products that kill people.

You truly are the master of completely missing the point.

You see when there a large demand for something, it doesn't matter what, and they think the government is being stupid, which seems to be most of the time, people just decide to ignore the law. On the supply side, there are people who have decided to ignore the law for fun and profit. When these two groups get together the result is a black market and no matter how hard the government tries they will never get control of it. Indeed, they will be making so much money that they will be bribing everyone from Congressmen on down to cops and thus end up running the government, which will then completely fail to do what you want.

I hate to break this to you but the state, no matter how hard it tries, is not omnipotent.

The gun issue is probably the #1 example of why the Electoral College needs to go.

I'll let everyone here connect the dots, and offer their comments.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

And it's too bad you Republicans want to take away all the programs that help people that might help prevent some of the criminal activity. Just join the Tea Party instead. I'm Taxed Enough Already. Just cut all the spending; that's the answer; yeah!

I haven't voted for a major party candidate since I was eighteen. I got tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. It was too much like voting for Satan or one of his minions, it make take a little longer to get there but the destination is still the same.

If by some miracle Ron Paul makes it on the ticket I will then be able to vote for a major party candidate and not be voting for evil. That will be a nice change.

Originally Posted by Galen

You truly are the master of completely missing the point.

You see when there a large demand for something, it doesn't matter what, and they think the government is being stupid, which seems to be most of the time, people just decide to ignore the law. On the supply side, there are people who have decided to ignore the law for fun and profit. When these two groups get together the result is a black market and no matter how hard the government tries they will never get control of it. Indeed, they will be making so much money that they will be bribing everyone from Congressmen on down to cops and thus end up running the government, which will then completely fail to do what you want.

I hate to break this to you but the state, no matter how hard it tries, is not omnipotent.

The fact is, gun control laws work; but not in uncivilized societies like heartland America, the wild west reborn.

Whether or not my party label for you was quite accurate or not, my comment still applies; unless you want to miss the point. You think the solution for crime is for more people to have more guns, and to cut off all funds for the programs that might help prevent people from committing crimes. I'm sure that's what Ron Paul thinks.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Here's a well-informed anti-hunting argument, I think?
HOW DEER HUNTING INCREASES THE RATE OF DEER STARVATION

Excellent article, I thought.