Originally Posted by Chas'88

Okay, this is just a question I have: why the hell is it that the majority of people who post here have either

a) met or meet in person
b) have had offline relationships and "relationships" with one another

The reason why I'm asking this is it makes me curious: Did you come here first and meet online then meet in person, or did you meet in person first and through getting to know one another eventually "recruit" or "convert" each other to post here?

As far as I know, those of us who have met in person did so after having "met" here.

And the why? Simply, why not? We had a poster for a while who's a professor in Moscow. I happened to be in his burg for a few days one time, with a bit of time to spare, and we managed to hook up for dinner and some bullshitting. Why not meet new people? Worst-case, you just make the minimal effort to never see them again. And even then, there's something to be said for broadening your scope of experience.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

As far as I know, those of us who have met in person did so after having "met" here.

And the why? Simply, why not? We had a poster for a while who's a professor in Moscow. I happened to be in his burg for a few days one time, with a bit of time to spare, and we managed to hook up for dinner and some bullshitting. Why not meet new people? Worst-case, you just make the minimal effort to never see them again. And even then, there's something to be said for broadening your scope of experience.

Admittedly, the first question was more of a turn of expression than an actual question. The second question was the actual question.

And if you read the other thread that's popular "Crisis will appear when institutions shut down" or something like that, you'd know we're in agreement about meeting new people.

I'm just curious as to how it all started.

Personally, I'd like to meet the majority of people here on this forum. And I know if I ever will travel to a certain state I'll ask if the person would care to meet up in person. TX, MN, NC, NM, OR, and NB are on the short list for the moment. And if I could find out where Tybalt lives, I'd definitely add that to the list as well.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Deb C

Maybe someone can answer this for me. I'm really curious about something. Can people who have been removed from the Fourth Turning Forum for ugly attacking posts, return under a new name? It just appears that some of the nasty posts as of late sound way too familiar.

New name but same attitude?

JDG66 is Glick, whose old login was banned. I have him on ignore because he harasses me for the fact that I get government assistance. I can't figure out who Exile is.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Admittedly, the first question was more of a turn of expression than an actual question. The second question was the actual question.

And if you read the other thread that's popular "Crisis will appear when institutions shut down" or something like that, you'd know we're in agreement about meeting new people.

I'm just curious as to how it all started.

Personally, I'd like to meet the majority of people here on this forum. And I know if I ever will travel to a certain state I'll ask if the person would care to meet up in person. TX, MN, NC, NM, OR, and NB are on the short list for the moment. And if I could find out where Tybalt lives, I'd definitely add that to the list as well.

~Chas'88

You would NOT want to come to Fargo right now, it's -20 out!

Originally Posted by Odin

JDG66 is Glick, whose old login was banned. I have him on ignore because he harasses me for the fact that I get government assistance. I can't figure out who Exile is.

Perhaps KIA (going solely off of birth years), though I don't think KIA was ever banned for anything. Not that I keep up with things like that.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Odin

You would NOT want to come to Fargo right now, it's -20 out!

So PA's low 20s and high 10s is Spring weather for you?

~Chas'88

It's in the mid 40's in Seattle right now. Of course, it rains like nearly every day.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

So PA's low 20s and high 10s is Spring weather for you?

~Chas'88

Pretty much!

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

In your opinion, is it OK to label the advocates for socialism and their supporters socialists?

Clinton brushes his teeth. Hitler brushed his teeth. Does this make Clinton like Hitler?

The old Soviet Union was both socialist and totalitarian. For years, pure socialism where the government owns the means of production and pure totalitarian government where there is no concern at all for the rights of individuals have been the antithesis of everything the United States stands for.

It is possible to redefine words like 'socialist,' 'totalitarian,' or 'fascist' to cover broad spectrums of people, then use the labels in a provocative, demeaning, inflammatory way. During the Bush 43 years, the 14 Points of Fascism was popular as a justification for calling Bush 43 a Fascist. In a similar way, some will use 'liberal,' 'progressive,' and 'socialist' interchangeably. If one has personally redefined 'socialist' such that this is true in one's own mind, is this OK? That would be Humpty Dumpty language theory. `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

If an individual's political beliefs are in the mainstream of 'liberal' or 'progressive,' and on the fringe of what is considered 'socialist,' I believe the persistent choice to use the word 'socialist' is deliberately provocative and insulting. The individual who insists on doing this is not looking for a civil conversation. I'd as soon see less of it, preferably none of it.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Admittedly, the first question was more of a turn of expression than an actual question. The second question was the actual question.

And if you read the other thread that's popular "Crisis will appear when institutions shut down" or something like that, you'd know we're in agreement about meeting new people.

I'm just curious as to how it all started.

Personally, I'd like to meet the majority of people here on this forum. And I know if I ever will travel to a certain state I'll ask if the person would care to meet up in person. TX, MN, NC, NM, OR, and NB are on the short list for the moment. And if I could find out where Tybalt lives, I'd definitely add that to the list as well.

~Chas'88

There are people who I've "met" on forum, that I would love to meet in person. If I were in the area that they lived in, I would make a point to try and see them. And, Chas, you already know you are one of them. I have only exchanged phone numbers with one friend who I've met here and I think we will probably meet in person one day since she lives close to where I have family. I also have a family member in Vancouver, Wa., so my Oregon and Washington friends may just see me on their door step one day.

As far as my real life friends or family, becoming members of the forum, I have thought about it that too and I'm not so sure I'd like that. There is a certain anonymity to this forum and I feel like I can express myself freely about my thoughts on politics, more personal things from my past or even my feelings about certain family members that I wouldn't comfortable talking about with people who I really know. And I believe that may be the case for a lot of the posters here.

As far as people who tend be combative on this forum, I'm just not so sure they are really like in person. Something tells me they would never talk to a friend or someone else the knew like that in real life. I think it's a just a game to a lot of them. Now I do try not offend people, because I understand there is a real live person sitting at the end of the computer and try to treat everyone in my real life and on this forum with respect. Sometimes I do hurt people's feelings or they take something I've said the wrong way and not how I intended. Then I feel bad. It can be hard just reading something, because you don't see the person's expression or their tone of voice. So if I ever say anything hurtful to any of you, I apologize. I don't know you or your history and I could easily press a button with you that I wasn't even aware of.

But to all my friends out there, and you know who you are, if you are ever in the Dallas area, you better let me know. I have come to care about my good friends on this forum just the same as I care about my real life friends.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

I dunno, Rani's primary crime here is she's an independant minded person who won't back down or take shit from herd minded idiots.

I like Suj, but she has a skill set that no one else has. She may or may not intentionally manipulate people into taking a position they shouldn't, but the manipulation is there.

Originally Posted by ASB65

As far as people who tend be combative on this forum, I'm just not so sure they are really like in person. Something tells me they would never talk to a friend or someone else the knew like that in real life. I think it's a just a game to a lot of them.

Some people are just fairly combative in real life. Back in the mid-1990's, before The Fourth Turning was published, I was trying out a kind of proto-generational argument with some friends at a Denny's. In short order, things got heated and voices were raised until one of my friends bellowed, "That's... That's... That's MENGELE SHIT!" (It really wasn't, but he has always been fond of invoking the Nazis when the argument is going against him!)

When I was in Iraq, I served with a really bright guy who, in civilian life, had been a Republican political operative. Every night after chow, we'd stake a claim to the smoking area and, invariably, we'd end up getting into it over something or other -- we'd argue over everything from Star Wars to America's shrinking industrial base, and some of them would turn into these really blazing rows. We'd actually draw crowds. But when the dust settled, we still had each other's backs, and we're still good friends. He has even come down to Philly. There may have even been a fairly legendary night of drinking involved.

And that's to say nothing of the dinner table when I was growing up! I've said before to The Rani in private that her style of argumentation and discussion is a dead ringer for my brother's, which explains why I've never really been bothered by it.

I wouldn't assume that people are necessarily playing games. I think that some people just move in different circles, where a more robust style (or even a combative one) is a lot more common.

Originally Posted by Semo '75

Some people are just fairly combative in real life. Back in the mid-1990's, before The Fourth Turning was published, I was trying out a kind of proto-generational argument with some friends at a Denny's. In short order, things got heated and voices were raised until one of my friends bellowed, "That's... That's... That's MENGELE SHIT!" (It really wasn't, but he has always been fond of invoking the Nazis when the argument is going against him!)

When I was in Iraq, I served with a really bright guy who, in civilian life, had been a Republican political operative. Every night after chow, we'd stake a claim to the smoking area and, invariably, we'd end up getting into it over something or other -- we'd argue over everything from Star Wars to America's shrinking industrial base, and some of them would turn into these really blazing rows. We'd actually draw crowds. But when the dust settled, we still had each other's backs, and we're still good friends. He has even come down to Philly. There may have even been a fairly legendary night of drinking involved.

And that's to say nothing of the dinner table when I was growing up! I've said before to The Rani in private that her style of argumentation and discussion is a dead ringer for my brother's, which explains why I've never really been bothered by it.

I wouldn't assume that people are necessarily playing games. I think that some people just move in different circles, where a more robust style (or even a combative one) is a lot more common.

I know there are people out there who truly enjoy a good argument. They thrive on it. I've known a few people like that myself. And they certainly don't see it as personal. Kind of like you and your old friend. I did have a poster from this forum (who likes to argue) send me a PM a while back and he basically said that he just gets a kick out arguing with people on the forum and sees it as stress relief and even though he comes off in his posts as being "mad", he really isn't. He is actually sitting there laughing the entire time he is posting. He basically said to me, take whatever I say with a grain of salt. I'm not really like this in real life and if I ever say anything to offend you, send me a PM and let me know.

Now this is only one poster and doesn't represent all the posters, but I think he may not be alone.

Originally Posted by Semo '75

Some people are just fairly combative in real life. Back in the mid-1990's, before The Fourth Turning was published, I was trying out a kind of proto-generational argument with some friends at a Denny's. In short order, things got heated and voices were raised until one of my friends bellowed, "That's... That's... That's MENGELE SHIT!" (It really wasn't, but he has always been fond of invoking the Nazis when the argument is going against him!)

When I was in Iraq, I served with a really bright guy who, in civilian life, had been a Republican political operative. Every night after chow, we'd stake a claim to the smoking area and, invariably, we'd end up getting into it over something or other -- we'd argue over everything from Star Wars to America's shrinking industrial base, and some of them would turn into these really blazing rows. We'd actually draw crowds. But when the dust settled, we still had each other's backs, and we're still good friends. He has even come down to Philly. There may have even been a fairly legendary night of drinking involved.

And that's to say nothing of the dinner table when I was growing up! I've said before to The Rani in private that her style of argumentation and discussion is a dead ringer for my brother's, which explains why I've never really been bothered by it.

I wouldn't assume that people are necessarily playing games. I think that some people just move in different circles, where a more robust style (or even a combative one) is a lot more common.

That reminds me of a Republican co-worker I always like to have friendly arguments with. One time I told him that Pro-Lifers only care about kids before they are born and that set him laughing so hard I thought he was gonna fall over.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

Gun laws are not the only variable that effect violent crime rates. If you see anyone selling you a simplistic picture, it isn't likely the complete picture. As in the Global Warming debates, partisans will cherry pick data bases in efforts to defend their position. The data is messy enough that one can find lots of ways to present it.

Anyway, folks might want to follow those links and spend a bit of time scanning the numbers.

I agree with all that. Gun laws are not the only variable. I disagree though, that it is NOT a variable.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Okay, this is just a question I have: why the hell is it that the majority of people who post here have either

a) met or meet in person
b) have had offline relationships and "relationships" with one another

The reason why I'm asking this is it makes me curious: Did you come here first and meet online then meet in person, or did you meet in person first and through getting to know one another eventually "recruit" or "convert" each other to post here?

It's a question that's bugged me for a while.

~Chas'88

A subject for another thread. Quite interesting though.
Personally I had some sort of "relationship" with two people here, only after coming here. One of them is also the occasion for this discussion.

By the way, has publius (Marc Lamb) now been banned? (again??)
I don't like bannings too much. Fruitcake was a numbskull too, and a racist; but sometimes I felt, without him, who am I going to argue with?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

y the way, has publius (Marc Lamb) now been banned? (again??)

I don't like bannings too much. Fruitcake was a numbskull too, and a racist; but sometimes I felt, without him, who am I going to argue with?

I wouldn't think you'd have that much trouble finding someone to argue with. Those two are hardly worth the effort.

But if one comes here for the purpose of having an argument, there might be something off from the start.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

I wouldn't think you'd have that much trouble finding someone to argue with. Those two are hardly worth the effort.

But if one comes here for the purpose of having an argument, there might be something off from the start.

Well, all that's true.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

But if one comes here for the purpose of having an argument, there might be something off from the start.

Totally agree. If one is here to feed their ego needs, like have arguments, then I put them on my ignore list. I will participate in debates and civil discussions like I have had with you and others. I prefer to keep the reality show theatrics out of my conversations.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Totally agree. If one is here to feed their ego needs, like have arguments, then I put them on my ignore list. I will participate in debates and civil discussions like I have had with you and others. I prefer to keep the reality show theatrics out of my conversations.

No kidding, I don't have to go the internet to find someone to argue with. My kids argue with me all day long. And they provide plenty of theatrics to boot.

In the late 1990s, shortly after the site went up, we had three gatherings for posters, two in DC and one in Nashville, where a junior high teacher who was a major original poster worked. However, I seem to be just about the only one of those original posters who is still at it here. I did take pretty much of a break for a couple of years--I can't remember exactly when--but I've been back for quite a while. I am still in touch with at least three of those original posters and chat with one of them frequently but they have given the site up. I did meet Jenny, Roadbldr and a couple of others at the Strauss memorial, at which I also spoke.

I think the discussions have been somewhat more elevated lately than they were for awhile there. Although I do keep my own blood pressure down with liberal use of the ignore list. I don't actually know Craig, the webmaster, but he seems to temper justice with mercy--he bans people but eventually lets them come back.

As for calling people socialists, the problem is one of definition. The actual definition of socialism is a belief in the common ownership of the means of production, but the epithet is now often applied to anyone who believes in progressive taxation, which is a bit ridiculous. Obama was accused of wanting to take over the banking and auto industries at the time of the bailouts, but that, clearly, was ludicrous, as was obvious at the time to anyone who actually paid attention.

Count me among those who enjoy a good argument.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Count me among those who enjoy a good argument.

We have had our disagreements. Yet we have never accused, abused, or degraded one another. I see arguments as degrading one another, name calling or making a point at the expense of another. I've experienced you as a gentleman even in the heat of disagreement.

So I guess we are now having an argument about what defines an argument. Time for one of those silly funny faces.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

In the late 1990s, shortly after the site went up, we had three gatherings for posters, two in DC and one in Nashville, where a junior high teacher who was a major original poster worked. However, I seem to be just about the only one of those original posters who is still at it here.

I was at Nashville. That was about the time of Monica and the Clinton impeachment thing. I don't think I quite count as an 'original poster' though.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

I was at Nashville. That was about the time of Monica and the Clinton impeachment thing. I don't think I quite count as an 'original poster' though.

Ahh... Monica Lewinsky, a time period of my childhood I'll never forget.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

I dunno, Rani's primary crime here is she's an independant minded person who won't back down or take shit from herd minded idiots.

and hates it when the herd shoots back:

http://www.cowswithguns.com/cwglyrics.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI