Originally Posted by KaiserD2

And this raises a critical question which I don't have time to address: is the black rate high because of race, or because blacks have southern roots? In 1968 all this was a hot political issue, and George Wallace was running on an anti-crime platform. Researchers discovered that Alabama had the highest murder rate in the nation and Wallace naturally blamed it on the black population. But in fact, it had the highest rate among both blacks and whites. (I learned this from a race relations professor, himself a Virginian, who stressed the traditional role of autonomous violence in southern life.)

On target. Thread on gun violence over.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Did you read it? I was discussing implicit v. explicit threats. If we're talking abut Loughner, his threat were explicit and public. If we're talking about Wally and you, among others, then a look in the mirror might be in order. You bait people as a matter of course - intentionally or not. People consider you callous. I wonder why?

My mirror shows an ugly, old, pot-bellied piece of white trash, with lots of issues. And that's being nice about it.

At least I come up with new intel.

Wally.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Maybe someone can answer this for me. I'm really curious about something. Can people who have been removed from the Fourth Turning Forum for ugly attacking posts, return under a new name? It just appears that some of the nasty posts as of late sound way too familiar.

New name but same attitude?

I changed my callsign, but have not concealed who I am. "The old rivalries dieth not."

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

The national discussion on civility reminds me of our own periodic calls for civility. Craig's Proposed New Forum Rules documents a previous go around. Back around July of 2008 the issue was an excess of comparisons with Hitler, Stalin and various secret police organizations that routinely violated traditional human rights. Part of that discussion was that Mr. Saari thought my use of the phrase 'get rid of' was excessively threatening. I hadn't anticipated he would read it that way, but did edit my post to reflect a willingness to strive for a more civil conversation.

I am pleased that the discussion here has become somewhat less juvinile than it was before the new forum rules. The mode of discussion where we question whether this poster is more like Hitler than that politician is like Stalin has faded considerably. Both on this forum and in the greater world I still see the word 'socialist' used to describe any advocate of social safety net programs, and 'totalitarian' used for anyone concerned with fighting terrorism. I believe this is poor use of both words. Neither is anywhere near the traditional word use, and doing so degrades the conversation while providing no redeeming value.

And, of course, there are those who think death threats are a proper way of expressing political opinions.

I do believe commonly expressed approval of killing changes the culture. If one wants to research the idea, I would recommend Dave Grossman's On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society. Before a war and after a war, the society has to teach its warriors to ignore traditional taboos against taking human life. Before the war, the enemy is demonized. After the war, there are parades and awards that attempt to make the killer a hero. These are part of a complex social tradition that attempts to make sure only those that deserve to die in fact die while giving honor and accepting into the community those who help preserve the culture.

The uncivil discourse we see here on the forum and elsewhere in the media is no where near as blatant as what one might expect to see in the build up to a war. It is still, however, an attack on the usual taboos that inhibit deadly behavior.

Count me as among those who would as soon see much less of it.

Where is Virgil now, anyway? I'm serious.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

I joined the forums in 2000. A few months later, Bill Strauss invited people to see a high school performance of one of his plays that he wrote. We also got together for dining and seeing movie clips of various ads.

Some time later, Roadbldr'59 started crushing on me and we arranged to meet in person. We hit it off and got involved in a 6-year long-distance relationship, that just ended in early 09. We're still friends. The two of us met Neisha and Justin '77, who used to live near Roadbldr '59. We also met Zarathustra in San Francisco in '06 and Bob Butler '59 in '07. A number of us got together in the DC area in 2008 for Bill Strauss's memorial service. I also met Marx & Lennon once because he lives near where my late brother lives.

There are others who have posted for a long time who I've never met in person who I'd love to meet.

I've spoken by phone to several members of the forum. Good interactions.

Originally Posted by ASB65

There are people who I've "met" on forum, that I would love to meet in person. If I were in the area that they lived in, I would make a point to try and see them. And, Chas, you already know you are one of them. I have only exchanged phone numbers with one friend who I've met here and I think we will probably meet in person one day since she lives close to where I have family. I also have a family member in Vancouver, Wa., so my Oregon and Washington friends may just see me on their door step one day.

As far as my real life friends or family, becoming members of the forum, I have thought about it that too and I'm not so sure I'd like that. There is a certain anonymity to this forum and I feel like I can express myself freely about my thoughts on politics, more personal things from my past or even my feelings about certain family members that I wouldn't comfortable talking about with people who I really know. And I believe that may be the case for a lot of the posters here.

As far as people who tend be combative on this forum, I'm just not so sure they are really like in person. Something tells me they would never talk to a friend or someone else the knew like that in real life. I think it's a just a game to a lot of them. Now I do try not offend people, because I understand there is a real live person sitting at the end of the computer and try to treat everyone in my real life and on this forum with respect. Sometimes I do hurt people's feelings or they take something I've said the wrong way and not how I intended. Then I feel bad. It can be hard just reading something, because you don't see the person's expression or their tone of voice. So if I ever say anything hurtful to any of you, I apologize. I don't know you or your history and I could easily press a button with you that I wasn't even aware of.

But to all my friends out there, and you know who you are, if you are ever in the Dallas area, you better let me know. I have come to care about my good friends on this forum just the same as I care about my real life friends.

ABS, I have first cousins in DFW, Palestine, and Marshall. Also in Port Jackson, but that's a bit far. PM me if you wish.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

I like Suj, but she has a skill set that no one else has. She may or may not intentionally manipulate people into taking a position they shouldn't, but the manipulation is there.

My dad always said to thank a liar who admits it on first contact, and to kill them as cleanly and politely as possible (we're white trash). I just use ignore.

Originally Posted by Odin

That reminds me of a Republican co-worker I always like to have friendly arguments with. One time I told him that Pro-Lifers only care about kids before they are born and that set him laughing so hard I thought he was gonna fall over.

Good one. Make the pro-lifers adopt the unwanted kids, and the Roe vs. Wade argument would be a dead issue. Literally.

Originally Posted by ASB65

No kidding, I don't have to go the internet to find someone to argue with. My kids argue with me all day long. And they provide plenty of theatrics to boot.

So do my co-workers and clients.

If our Cybrarian is on the air, I need to schedule kennel time for Scruffy, and put in for vacation time. Convention site again, please?

Originally Posted by Poodle

Good one. Make the pro-lifers adopt the unwanted kids, and the Roe vs. Wade argument would be a dead issue. Literally.

I shouldn't have to pay for someone's else's abortion. That is her body and she gets to pay for the abortion. I agree with a woman's right to choose (and pay for her choices.)

Originally Posted by ASB65

See Pat, this is one of the difference between men and women. I know exactly what you are saying and the harm they could do to me would not necessarily be shooting or robbing me. As a matter of fact, those things are not the first thing that comes to mind. Men don't worry about being ganged raped. It happens to women all the time and most times there aren't any weapons involved. But as a woman, it's always on your radar.

I see your point. I'm seriously wasn't trying to make light of your fears and admittedly rape wasn't even on my worry list. I bet if it was , then I would have hit the gas too.

Originally Posted by Yorick's Skull

I see your point. I'm seriously wasn't trying to make light of your fears and admittedly rape wasn't even on my worry list. I bet if it was , then I would have hit the gas too.

Apology accepted, although unnecessary. I didn't think you were laughing at me nor did I feel insulted.

Originally Posted by Poodle

I changed my callsign, but have not concealed who I am. "The old rivalries dieth not."

The only thing I can find about you is that your name is Wally.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

I joined the forums in 2000. A few months later, Bill Strauss invited people to see a high school performance of one of his plays that he wrote. We also got together for dining and seeing movie clips of various ads.

Some time later, Roadbldr'59 started crushing on me and we arranged to meet in person. We hit it off and got involved in a 6-year long-distance relationship, that just ended in early 09. We're still friends. The two of us met Neisha and Justin '77, who used to live near Roadbldr '59. We also met Zarathustra in San Francisco in '06 and Bob Butler '59 in '07. A number of us got together in the DC area in 2008 for Bill Strauss's memorial service. I also met Marx & Lennon once because he lives near where my late brother lives.

There are others who have posted for a long time who I've never met in person who I'd love to meet.

It seems Roadbuilder has been upset about relationships a lot longer than that.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

I joined the forums in 2000. A few months later, Bill Strauss invited people to see a high school performance of one of his plays that he wrote. We also got together for dining and seeing movie clips of various ads.

Some time later, Roadbldr'59 started crushing on me and we arranged to meet in person. We hit it off and got involved in a 6-year long-distance relationship, that just ended in early 09. We're still friends. The two of us met Neisha and Justin '77, who used to live near Roadbldr '59. We also met Zarathustra in San Francisco in '06 and Bob Butler '59 in '07. A number of us got together in the DC area in 2008 for Bill Strauss's memorial service. I also met Marx & Lennon once because he lives near where my late brother lives.

There are others who have posted for a long time who I've never met in person who I'd love to meet.

Actually, you were the one with the crush. I merely...facilitated its development

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

It seems Roadbuilder has been upset about relationships a lot longer than that.

No I am upset about Boomers trashing the house...leaving the mess for younger people to clean up...and waxing nostalgic over the process.

Even still...it isn't like I obsess over it.

Originally Posted by Poodle

Where is Virgil now, anyway? I'm serious.

I've no idea. He just stopped posting.

Originally Posted by Poodle

If our Cybrarian is on the air, I need to schedule kennel time for Scruffy, and put in for vacation time. Convention site again, please?

Sorry to take this thread off topic, but I've wanted to ask you if you have poodles. We have this little cookapoo that showed up on our doorstep last summer and we adopted him. This dog has got to be the most independent dog I've ever run across. He will mind if he if feels like it, but he also be can very naughty too. Some days I feel like I'm pulling my hair out with this dog. But that being said, he is a funny little dog and we are quite taken with him, so he is here to stay.

If you have any pointers on how I may be able to get this dog to behave, I'd love to talk you in a PM and explain some of issues I'm having with him.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

I've no idea. He just stopped posting.

He made a single post not too long ago.

Originally Posted by Poodle

Good one. Make the pro-lifers adopt the unwanted kids, and the Roe vs. Wade argument would be a dead issue. Literally.

Except that the number of children available for adoption plummeted after Roe, IIRC.

Originally Posted by Earl and Mooch

Except that the number of US-born children available for adoption plummeted after Roe, IIRC.

Note the change. I work with a colleague who has two daughters adopted from China.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

No I am upset about Boomers trashing the house...leaving the mess for younger people to clean up...and waxing nostalgic over the process.

Even still...it isn't like I obsess over it.

Well, you do enough for it to affect your political and social views. And "trashing the house" meant, as I understood you to say years ago, making it harder for you to find a significant other in a traditional relationship, because of the pressure to have sex, be uninhibited, etc. Not that you don't have some good points about it all. But remember that the family life many of us boomers grew up in was very alienating, lonely, and stifling. I could think of little less fulfilling to me growing up than a traditional family. It was confining, repressive, unspiritual, and boring. We needed to seek out alternatives, although we didn't do a very good job of it.

Originally Posted by Poodle

Where is Virgil now, anyway? I'm serious.

Virgil is nice, but it is always a strain to understand what he says. His sarcasm always needs translation.

Originally Posted by Wallace 88

-BB points out that you missed an important part of that:

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am2.html

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

BB covers some of the rest, by something needs to be made explicit:



-Yes, it is. That's why it says "the people." If the 2nd Amendment is not a civil right, then neither is any other right which the constitution recognizes as belonging to "the people."

I don't think you want to go there...

BTW, was your misquote intentional, or just sloppy?

While I regret the omission, I don't think it was that important.

The primary clause is obviously very important and clearly distinguishes the spirit of the Second Amendment from the First, the Fifth, and various others. The rights of free speech, assembly and religion were granted for their own sake without restriction. The right of the people to keep and bear arms was granted for a purpose--the purpose of maintaining the militia they thought necessary to the security of a free state. But we no longer believe that.