I agree with you on corporations ( no reason for them to be "persons"). But disagree on Second Ammendment.Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon
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I agree with you on corporations ( no reason for them to be "persons"). But disagree on Second Ammendment.
This is an interesting article:
The crescent and the company
http://www.economist.com/node/18008627
The crescent and the company
“A scholar asks some profound questions about why the Middle East fell behind the West.”…”For most of its history the Middle East was just as dynamic as Europe. The great bazaars of Baghdad and Istanbul were full of fortune-seekers from hither and yon. Muslim merchants carried their faith to the far corners of the world. “…”The standard explanations for this decline are all unsatisfactory. One is that the spirit of Islam is hostile to commerce. But if anything Islamic scripture is more pro-business than Christian texts. Muhammad was a merchant, and the Koran is full of praise for commerce. A second explanation is that Islam bans usury. But so do the Torah and the Bible. A third—popular in the Islamic world—is that Muslims were victims of Western imperialism. But why did a once-mighty civilisation succumb to the West?
In “The Long Divergence” Mr Kuran advances a more plausible reason. The Middle East fell behind the West because it failed to produce commercial institutions—most notably joint-stock companies—that were capable of mobilising large quantities of productive resources and enduring over time.Europeans inherited the idea of the corporation from Roman law. “…
“Culture’s long shadow
The “long divergence” also helps to explain some of the Islamist rage against capitalism. Traditional societies of all kinds have been uncomfortable with corporations which, according to Edward Thurlow, an 18th-century British jurist, have “neither bodies to be punished, nor souls to be condemned”.” …
…. “The Protestant work ethic and the scientific revolution no doubt mattered. But they may have mattered less than previously thought. People who want to ensure that economic development puts down deep roots in emerging societies would be well advised to create the institutional environment in which Thurlow’s soulless institutions can flourish.”
Recently, we bought a piece of property. As is common these days, my brothers and I set up a Limited Liability Corporation (LLC) to hold the property. We had the LLC established and a federal tax id in less than 24 hours. I am dubious about allowing corporations or LLCs to have political roles, but that we can set up these types of arrangements so easily is a source of strength in our economy. In other places in the world, it can take years to set up a corporation and sometimes the charters for corporations are only granted to the politically favored.
We have been well served as a society with the ease and availability of corporations.
James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton
Hopefully no one will take this a criticism but rather an observation on my part. I'm surprised that the debate over gun laws has go on this long. I see this issue as a 3T culture wars debate. And it really is cultural. Note the facebook post I just saw from my hometown.
The fact this topic is still being debated makes me wonder if the cultural wars aren't really more part of the 4T crisis than we actually realize. In the end, are the problems we are facing as country going back to cultural and class division? On the economic front, the catch phrase we hear all the time is "Wall Street vs Main Street." And I believe that much of the division between the Democrats and the Republicans boils down to being purely cultural.Generations (a bar) is hosting a Wild Game Feed on Super Bowl Sunday to benefit Main Street! $5.00 for all of the tasty food.
I've heard others make comments from to time on this forum that the 3T cultural wars are over... No, they aren't...(shrugs shoulders)
I don't know, Amy. I don't think the debate about gun control is so much about cultural differences as it's about defining the role of government in citizen's lives -- that is, guns are just a symptom of a larger desire to control. It's the same thing with Internet access, freedom to speak/criticize/assemble and other Constitutional rights.
If you consider that those who advocate for banning guns are also the ones calling for limited debate, greater scrutiny/security, fewer economic freedoms, more authoritarian control, etc., you begin to see where the real divide is occurring. Is that cultural? Or something else?
Last edited by Xer H; 01-28-2011 at 03:15 PM.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein
"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein
Who, specifically, is calling for gun bans? I've seen plenty on registration and licensing, but we do that with cars and drivers. It doesn't seem to have any effect on traffic. This entire gun-ban brouhaha is a fantasy, as far as I can tell.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
No no, the gun debate is not cultural, except in the sense that there is a ridiculous gun culture in this country. Gun control is simply a matter of product safety and saving lives. The primary divide now is not cultural, but is over free market economics aka the trickle-down theory and the "role of government." Guns are also a part of that debate.
Possession of guns is not really a constitutional right, except that our Bush Supreme court thinks so. But even they say that gun control is constitutional. Banning guns is not on the horizon, except that Americans who can't think straight say that it is whenever anyone speaks up about the crying and long-overdue need for gun control. The resistance is cultural (American machismo, the wild west, revolution, etc.); the reality of the need is not cultural. But obviously you are right that gun control is an issue that concerns the role of government.
You lump together things Mr. XerH that are not common among any group of people or advocates. Those calling for "fewer economic freedoms" are usually calling for adequate protection and oversight of rapacious corporate tyranny. These lovers of REAL freedom are largely Democrats and progressives. Those calling for greater security are afraid of terrorists; not at all the same people, but are predominantly Republicans, such as George W. Bush. Authoritarian control and "limited debate" are the desire of perhaps some Republicans as well, but noone on the Left. Gun control advocates cross party and ideological lines, but are more often progressive and left-- but some on the left or far left as well as the far right mistakenly think citizen possession of guns is an answer to government tyranny.
People living in cities may not see this as cultural, but those living in rural areas do see hunting as part of their culture. When a son goes hunting with his dad for the first time, it's seen as right of passage. Most of the people I know who own guns don't have them for self protection. They own them for hunting purposes. Because I grew up in a rural environment and most of my contact with gun owners are those people who are avid hunters I do kind of have an idea of how their thinking lies. Like I said before, when they hear the word "gun control" they think gun ban and they see it as people trying to take away part of their heritage and their way of life. I can't speak for those people living in the city who own them for protection, perhaps it's not seen as cultural to them.
Last edited by ASB65; 01-29-2011 at 09:02 AM.
This is very accurate, in my experience. Even people who were raised in the country and who've moved to cities and suburbs have shotguns and rifles. Two very liberal men I know (one early Silent, one early Boomer), having grown up in the country, were hunters and own guns.
My father bought my brother a .22 when he was 12. It was a family tradition, passed down from his father. I grew up in a semi-rural area, although it's not now. Lots of people went hunting.
Many of those hunters are avid environmentalists.
Amy, I want to ask you to think of this from a different perspective.
Why do those rural citizens think "gun ban" when they hear "gun control," since there is essentially no constituency, and never has been, that wants to ban guns for hunting? I really want to know.
David Kaiser '47
My blog: History Unfolding
My book: The Road to Dallas: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy
If only the NRA could distinguish sport hunters from terrorists, drug traffickers, and family-annihilators! But it can't! It's under the thumb of the weapons industry, and there is far more to the gun and ammunition trade than the firearms and bullets that sport hunters and other legitimate gun users need and want.
Sport hunters don't need fully-automatic arms or 30-round clips.
I hope that everyone thinks of Representative Gabrielle Giffords: that could as easily be my Representative in my district. Assassination is the worst way to shape political life.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
I agree with you on the fully-automatic arms and it seems that we should be able to reach a conensus on these weapons.
Jesus...
None of you can walk out and buy an automatic weapon.
That depends David. You haven't even defined what you mean by "gun control" yet. What gun control laws would you like to see in place?
I can answer that one. It's because people like Eric the Green - no offense, Eric - make the Sign Against Evil when they hear any mention of either guns *or* hunting, and cry "No! Guns bad! Hunting bad!"
And don't get me started on Zero Tolerance in the schools. The latest: a 5-year-old brought a gun to school and it fell out of his backpack. Instead of investigating the parents for carelessness, they're investigating both parents *AND* child. The child has been suspended from school pending the investigation, and one of the officials argued against the "innocent child' defense by pointing out that this was a bright and articulate kid.
For 5.
After a long string of stories over the years in which a high school kid who didn't even know Dad's hunting rifle was in the car being considered a "gun criminal" and suspended or disciplined.
I'm a city gal and have never hunted in my life, and a liberal to boot, but even I can recognize nonsense when I see it. Not to mention obsession.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."
"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.
Now, don't go throwing logic at the discussion...
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein
"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein
An illogical obsession, for some, at that.
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Yes, we mustn't deprive Philosophy teachers of their niche in society. If we started to apply logic to situations then they'd be out of a job, well except for the Sophists...Now, don't go throwing logic at the discussion...
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Ha! True enough, my friend. Chalk it up to my INTJ-ness. Philosopher I am not. Analyst, I am.
But you have to admit, this discussion has a whole lot of emotion and very little critical thinking to it.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein
"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein
And we've got a whole lot more emotion to trudge through before we get to a somewhat rationally driven period of time, unfortunately.
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Some I know think that a ban on certain weapons will lead to stronger more extensive bans on other weapons.
Generation: Millennial (Gen Y)
(or whatever hell you want to call it....)
What makes Jared Loughner so special then?
It's the people in the city that are the issue. David's point is well taken.
From my point of view, I guess I don't see why some rural people can't progress beyond an old fashioned culture. People want to destroy gun control, thinking gun ban, at the price of assassinations and murder, in order to protect their cultural heritage. It is nonsense of course.
Indeed, we do.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein
"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein
