Godwin's law, you lose.Originally Posted by Weave
Speaking of being a loser it's good to see that your handiling your election loss well.I doubt your "side" want to pick a fight with the Right. Given the sympathy we garner with the majority of the police and military and the fact that we are well armed ourselves you lefties might find out that your "side"are the ones at the end of a rope.
Ahem.
Yeah...Im not the one advocating the hanging of a Governor for signing in a law. Nor am I advocating civil war like Jimmy Hoffa jr. Im simply pointing out the dire consequences that could happen if the left wishes to continue threatening violence and anarchy. Be careful what you wish for....
Jimmy Hoffa Jr wasn't the only one, I think Don Trump tweeted that there should be a civil war as Obama was claimed to have won... and quickly deleted that tweet. I think both cases point to the class warfare Odin mentioned being started by those in the highest earning brackets.
These guys to me are examples of the expression, "absolute power corrupts absolutely." These guys crave empowerment and receive gratification by lording over people who are often significantly less-educated, less-secure than they are (on the surface).
With that being said, any talk of real violence shouldn't be tolerated and debating who started what is pretty immature.
Nice back down.:
You have a point. I think the only chance for our side is people power. It seems to work as often as not though. It does seem to require that at least the military/police be sympathetic enough to stand back and not interfere. On many of these issues, the police and military would side with the Left. Why? Because they are public employees, and that's who your side are most strongly attacking.
The people in many northern heartland states made a drastic mistake, just because they were impatient with the slow pace of the recovery and were easily swayed by your side's propaganda against "big government" and "taxes." (I mean who likes "big government" and "taxes"?) So they voted into office these goons whose only desire is to take away the rights of working people and boost those of "free" enterprise.
The Gov. of Michigan has a lot of damn nerve to turn his heavily-unionized blue state into a "right-to-work" state. It is going to rile up people there into a fury. At least come the next election, if not before, some of them are going to be thrown out of office, just like the people of Wisconsin with people power and voting took away the governor's majority in his legislature there. But if the Republican goons continue this type of assault, it will surely fuel the rising calls for civil war or secession or other signs of the increasing divide in our country that is the very essence of this 4T. And if you Republicans think you can count on public employees to protect you in your assault on them, you might have another thing coming.
Its not a "right" when you are forced to join a union. The only people it has riled up is the Democrat Party as they see the cash cow they rely on dwindle. An initiative was just voted down 58%-42% which would have codified unionism in the state constitution. This was in a year that Obama won handily and Dem turnout was at its peak. If the majority supported the unions so badly that wouldn't have been defeated. The people the Michigan have seen what the unions gave to Michigan, high unemployment, jobs bleeding to other places. It will be like Wisconsin all over. A bunch of union thugs trying to unseat Repubs only to be soundly defeated.
If we can't count on the cops to protect our citizens, I guess we're going to have to provide armed security. Hey union boy, show me your fist or club. I need to justify the use of my Smith & Wessen. Oh, when I'm asked, where were the cops? My answer will be the cops were busy standing around, watching this guy get beat and doing nothing about it, over there.
Anyone can avoid joining a union. Choose your sweatshop carefully, for you will consign yourself to a life of poverty.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Oh, like, the Democrats don't engage in class warfare and drive class warfare.
I preferred to choose my company wisely.
The economic elites of America want an absolute plutocracy -- a dictatorship of capital. They want government responsible only to economic power. Workers of any kind are but livestock at the most charitable and vermin to be disposed of if rebellious or 'unworthy'. Public institutions are to become mere tools of the economic elites.
Nothing about America's tycoons, executive elite, and big landowners gives me cause for hope in their decency. As elsewhere and in other times they do any good for humanity either to make a profit, make showy monuments to themselves through some pompous display of charity, to avoid trouble with legal authorities, or to avoid burning in Hell should they begin to fear that. Needless to say they will force the laws to accommodate their desires, which will probably mean the reintroduction the 'freedom' to voluntary unpaid overtime, the freedom of children to work in mines and factory. If given the chance they will make the government represent them and government employees such as police and soldiers will be obliged to mow down any dissidents. Teachers will be obliged to teach complete obedience to the whims of owners and bosses.
Elite education? You tell me what about the norm in college education teaches people to show any altruism, any restraint in personal indulgence, or any moral principle. Religion? The Protestant fundamentalists whose votes they seek have a religion of modesty and self-sacrifice on behalf of economic elites. To whom would our elites defer? Self preservation? It wouldn't take long for these people to establish the private, politicized militias to enforce their will even if they let the weak government show signs of separation. Death squads that the weak government would be unable to stop would render some perverted sort of justice. Profit maximization is a
low level of ethical value, as gangsters demonstrate.
Am I excessively dramatic about gangsters? No matter how completely Al Capone controlled the booze trade in Chicago, one could avoid his power. In the more genteel sort of thug state like Chile under Pinochet one could hardly avoid being a victim or perpetrator. It's safe to say that a political gangster like Pinochet could do far more harm than a 'king of bootleggers'.
Wherever tycoons, financiers, executives, and big landowners have had complete control, life has been miserable irrespective of the level of economic development. Suicide rates in Nazi Germany were high.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Resistance to pure, amoral plutocracy is as noble as the struggles against George III, slavery, fascism, and segregation. Blaming workers for opposing the dictatorial methods of Rick Snyder in Michigan is as pointless as blaming the Jews for the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto (if less desperate).
Is life for working people to have meaning or is it to be a new form of serfdom? Such may be the key issue of this Crisis Era.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Right-to-work laws are just union-busting laws. You exaggerate as Republicans like you usually do. Maybe it was a bit much for people to "codify unions in the state constitution." That does not mean 58% of the people oppose unions. The reverse is the truth. Unions give the people of Michigan high wages, job security and better working conditions. Those companies who move away from blue states should not be missed; they just don't care about their state so it's fine with me and other Dems if they move away. And don't bother to close the door on your way out to Mississippi. The union "thugs" unseated enough Reps to take away the governor's majority in his legislature; I'd say that's not "defeat," even if the governor was able to use Citizens United to buy his victory in the recall.
Your armed security would only be "protecting" you guys, who are attacking with your guns the people who are using their non-violent people power. But if you rile up some union extremists to act like thugs, with attacks on their livelihood and union rights, then you should look at yourself and your unnecessary and malevolent attacks on them as a cause, even if I agree that their violence is not the answer to their problems. If you do get into a civil war, then you'll have to rely on your Smith and Wesson against whatever the police have, contrary to you said in your previous post that you might have hoped for. The police, no more than other public employees, are going to easily tolerate your attacks on public and other union employees.(classic Xer)
If we can't count on the cops to protect our citizens, I guess we're going to have to provide armed security. Hey union boy, show me your fist or club. I need to justify the use of my Smith & Wessen.
Most corporations offer employment on a 'take it or leave it' proposition, and conditions can go from morality clauses to dress codes. Company dress codes can cost an employee dearly, but if you want to work you go along. It can sell you the uniform and dictate how often it is dry-cleaned.
As for the (state) Constitutional amendment that Michigan voters turned down the Governor had recently given assurances that Duty to Starve Law would not be enacted. Within a month and a half he and his Party sucker-punched Michigan workers. Voters were told that they needed no such Amendment and then found that they needed it. Michigan voters, especially in rural areas with few union jobs, do not always follow the UAW line.
The purpose is to cut wages and give employers even more power over workers. The jobs likely to appear in Michigan are sweatshop jobs with largely transitory employees who take the jobs only in desperation and leave at the first opportunity. Such jobs ensure poverty.
Unions gave Michigan a pattern of life that makes a state with bad weather as a rule for most of the year (hot, sticky summers and cold, stormy winters in Tornado Alley) and few obvious attractions. Strong unions have given industrial workers the means of a middle-class living that allow a consumerism that Corporate America wishes to bring to an end. Unions have forced more parity in wages between men and women -- and whites and blacks. The Master Class of Corporate America wants working people to suffer for the greed and indulgence of the few. What can one expect of cruel, rapacious, amoral people out only for themselves when they get stooge government?
The Republican Party of Michigan acts like a Fascist Party. It may yet revive the only institutions capable of resisting it -- strong, militant unions.
By the way, Weave -- union people are generally good people. They may not have the polished intellect that one might expect from degreed professionals (as if you have that - irony intended), but they are more politically aware than you think. They get the point to small businesses and professionals that the economic success of union worker fosters solid incomes and and a strong tax base. But who needs a solid tax base when Corporate America can induce children to work in their 'dark, Satanic mills' (William Blake) out of necessity?
120 years ago the norm for the industrial worker was the 70-hour workweek and a 40-year lifespan. 75 years ago the norm became the 40-hour workweek and the 70-year lifespan. Corporate elites can live very well either way, but they had more power over people and higher profits as a share of income 120 years ago.
...Michigan is somewhat similar to Wisconsin -- but the electorate is much more liberal. Exchange Milwaukee for Detroit and you get the difference between the two states. Someone will poll Michigan to determine how popular Governor Snyder is after sucker-punching Michigan workers -- and that pollster got the 2012 election very well. Because Michigan has a larger African-American population as a percentage of the electorate than does Wisconsin, Snyder will be more vulnerable than Walker ever was. Voters will get to determine who the thugs and their enablers are before they vote.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Omg,
may God help us
Connecticut school shooting claims nearly 30 lives, source says
Newtown, Connecticut (CNN) -- In one of the deadliest school shootings in U.S. history, a gunman opened fire Friday in a Connecticut elementary school, killing nearly 30 people -- most of them children, a law enforcement official receiving information from the scene told CNN.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
Right to work is a terrible thing. Let me tell you why, first off I live in one of the right to work states, and it is not a good thing.
Right to work means that with no union to represent you wages will be low. I make right now what my father did in 1987 doing the same job he did. The difference is that in 1987, $15 an hour was good money. Very good money. The water treatmnent and wastewater treatment people *had* a union then.
So much misdirected anger in this country... so much dysfunction.
I know it's a 4T and all, but I don't see this level of insanity in Europe or other post WW2 crises.
Something's really, really wrong with America...
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
The union made sure that no one person or collective small group of people worked all the holidays and all the weekends, the insurance was better and there was a very nice 401(k) match to the tune of 10% match. Promotions were based on actual perfomance and test scores.
Ok, let's fast forward from my Dad's old company/union handbook from the collective bargaining agreement of 1985 that ran to 1988, to today 2012.
I actually work for the same company just a different location than he did with the same job title he had in 1987, making exactly the same amount of money per hour he did in 1987.
The water treatment union was busted up altogether in 1995 here in Mississippi.
(sorry for the multiple replies, but the post limit will catch me.)
Now pay is at the discretion of the management, who stand to lose bonuses if they are too free with the raises, employees eat into the profit margin.
Now, no one makes sure that the weekend rotation of work or holiday rotation of work is fairly shared among all. At our main plant, a core group of 35-45 year olds have been working all the holidays, all the weekends for the same 7 years I have. The last holiday I had off was Memorial Day 2008. I only got that one off because I had a death in the family and bereavement leave is not deniable by company policy, otherwise I would have had to work it.
The 401(k) match now is 3%. The insurance that cost my father $50 a month to insure all of us, costs me $245 dollars out of every check to insure myself, my husband, and our 2 children.
I have not been home on Christmas Day in so long my kids, the youngest is 10, don't even cry over it anymore.
My degree, if used, would actually pay less because the teachers in MS do not have unions. 1st year teachers make $26K a year, and top out in richer areas at about $32K. But it takes nearly a decade and a half to get there.
The last promotion given out, went to a 64 year old that could not pass the operator licensing test. He was promoted by a friend in the company, also in his age range. He is systematically running the operations department into the ground. They have had 4 reportable to the EPA spills or overflows of raw sewage in the last 12 months.
Justin, a 39 year old operator with 13 years experience, who passed not only the class 2, 3, and 4 wastewater operator licensing tests, but took the initiative to go out and pay for and get the water treatment operator license class 2, 3 for drinking water treatment, was passed over for this job. No reason given as to why.
This guy has never called in sick even once in the years I have worked with him. Not once.
Collectively none of the 35-45 year olds I work with have had a raise in 5 years. The over 55 crowd has had raises real regularly. You hear them talk in the breakrooms about it. There is a serious issue, with right to work states and laws.
No unions, is no protection, it is not equal treatment and there is no job security.
Wages stagnate and the area becomes poorer, while prices continue to rise because of the greed of the fat cats who want more money.
As wages stagnate, the level of education decreases, just look at my state. It is the poorest in the nation, we are last in education. You can't get more money out of broke people. People just barely keeping a roof over their heads and food on the table.
Home ownership is at an all time low in our state and has been for about 10 years.
Most people I know that do eventually get a home aren't always getting a traditional house, most of them are getting a used mobile home set up in a trailer park, that even after the thing is paid for, they will always owe rent for where it is setting at.
Probably. Russians just generally drank themselves to death back in their 4T era. There were big shootouts, don't get me wrong... but those were targeted -- at competitors, debtors, rival gangs. The semi-random murder thing seems to be an American specialty.
Then again, we are a country founded mainly by fringe religious cultists and individuals sufficiently socially-dysfunctional to be willing to leave everything and everyone they knew to go live out in the woods by themselves. If it's in our cultural DNA, you can't say that we weren't pretty heavily selected to it.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
Right to work is just a real fancy way of saying, Welcome to Poverty, the likes of which you have never known.
It also means, congratulations, you will never break even, your children won't see you on holidays, and I don't think you will be able to retire.
I'm still shocked a bit every now and then that my dad supported a family of 5 on $15 an hour with my mom making $9 as a secretary. They owned a home in a nice neighborhood, both had newish cars, we took vacations every year to the Gulf Coast. And Christmas, while not extravagant, was actually abundant.
My husband and I combined make about $20K more a year than what my parents did in 1987, we just got our first house this year. We got it cheap because it had been empty for a decade and needed so much work to be livable and safe. We are paying for and doing the repairs ourself as money allows. We both drive old, used cars that by no stretch can be called new-ish. We have yet to get more than a 2 day getaway anywhere every couple of years.
Right to work is a huge joke and it benefits only the companies. I really wonder when they will just stop paying us and say that they own us the way things are going in society.
For the longest time, whenever I would encounter someone in / from "The Old Country" who would snear at us whilst implying we were losers who could not make it across the pond, I would write it off as elitism and jeolosy. I'm starting to waver now. While to an extent, migrants to the New World were a cross section of the Old World, on the other hand, there is no doubt truth to the notion that a significant fraction of the migrants were fleeing the law, the debt merchant or both. So maybe we have bred a certain criminality and tendancy toward lawlessness. Add to this the decimation of the earlier convention that "American" culture would be a British "mini me." So now there is a much weaker cultural fabric and all the bad things that ensue from that.
We have a depraved mass culture, political interests intent on turning every common man against each other, elite education that promotes none of the old virtues that made leaders contemplate the consequences upon subordinate and clients, economic inequality approaching that characteristic of a fascist dictatorship, and political leaders who would have fit well in the Chamber of Deputies in Italy in the early 1930s. We have the tools to do good yet we use them solely for selfish and even evil ends.
Seventy years ago Americans could see evil in the personalities of foreign leaders who exemplified evil. Such allowed a very simple world view and an obvious solution to which Americans of all classes, regions, religions, political persuasions, and ethnic origins could dedicate every possible resource. That solution, of course, was utter defeat of the war machines of Nazi Germany and Thug Japan even if such would require great expenditure of life and treasure because the alternative was for the gangster regimes to defeat America and inflict far greater loss of life and treasure... not to mention our heritage of freedom.
Now we are splintered between people in the political center who would accept a watered-down welfare state -- and people who want the economic order of a fascist tyranny if without the ludicrous pageantry, book burnings, torture, pointless wars, and of course mass murder. Center or Right, our enemies are in this country already. They are not the Hard Left, for there is practically no Marxist or even socialist group anywhere near achieving power anywhere.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 12-14-2012 at 08:55 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
