Originally Posted by JohnMc82

So much misdirected anger in this country... so much dysfunction.

I know it's a 4T and all, but I don't see this level of insanity in Europe or other post WW2 crises.

Something's really, really wrong with America...

Oh?

Dunblane Masacre

Erfurt Massacre

Jokela School Shooting

Winnenden School Shooting

Toulouse and Montauban shootings

Those are some of the European school shootings with higher body counts. They have had plenty of others. Of course so has the United States going all the way back to the 1700's. The worst was back in 1927 and didn't involve guns at all.

There are fewer shootings in the US today than there ever have been. We all love to blame the media, blame guns, blame laws for these things because it's easy. The reality is these things happen, like everything else, because of cause and effect and human influence. These easy solutions won't work.

No Kepi, the blame is clear, and could not be clearer. As I have said before, the kind of shooting that happened in Connecticut today, as well as in Clackamas Co. Oregon two days ago, and in Aurora CO, Tuscon AZ, etc. etc. etc., is something we can expect to happen more and more often, as long as the Republicans and DINOs control the agenda of this country. Just as every Republican is equally responsible for every hurricane, tornado, flood, drought, mass species extinction brought about by global warming, just as they are responsible for the economic recession and inequality that hurts so many people, so they are just as responsible for these shootings as if they pulled the trigger themselves. And so is everyone who opposes gun control.

America is a very primitive and violent country, enslaved and ensnared by backward, cynical ideologies that keep us in the dark ages while other countries advance. As long as we keep our heads in the sand, and do not pay attention to reality, we will continue to suffer these tragedies. This is the fourth turning. We will confront the results of being shackled with these ideologies every day now, from now on. Things will only get worse until we change. America must take responsibility for voting and acting correctly in our politics and our thinking, or we will continue to suffer a long, slow, painful, self-inflicted death.

I haven't donated to the Brady Campaign in a while, but I made a small donation today in honor of today's victims.

You can express your condolences here:
http://www.wearebetterthanthis.org/index.cfm

http://www.bradycampaign.org/

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Oh?

Dunblane Masacre

Erfurt Massacre

Jokela School Shooting

Winnenden School Shooting

Toulouse and Montauban shootings

Those are some of the European school shootings with higher body counts. They have had plenty of others. Of course so has the United States going all the way back to the 1700's. The worst was back in 1927 and didn't involve guns at all.

Agreed. Looking at this list, there hasn't been a decade since the 1860s where there hasn't been some kind of "attack" or killing in the US at an Elementary school. Guns used to be popular, but then apparently we went through a knife/machete phase of recent fame.

Some "interesting conflicts" from that list:

June 8, 1867 - New York City, NY - At Public School No. 18, a 13 year old lad brought a pistol loaded and capped, without the knowledge of his parents or school-teachers, and shot and injured a classmate.

Such a cute little Progressive.

December 22, 1868 - Chattanooga, TN - A boy who refused to be whipped and left school, returned with his brother and a friend, the next day to seek revenge on his teacher. Not finding the teacher at the school, they continued to his house, where a gun battle rang out, leaving three dead. Only the brother survived

Oh what a cute little Progressive.

Speaking of the Progressives, throughout the 1870s and 1880s they apparently didn't take to refusal of marriage proposals from Schoolmarms that well...

April 9, 1891 - Newbourgh, NY - 70-year-old James Foster fired a shotgun at a group of male students in the playground of St. Mary's Parochial School, causing minor injuries to several of the students.

What a gallant Nomad...

February 12, 1909 - San Francisco, CA - 10-year-old Dorothy Malakanoff was shot and killed by 49-year-old Demetri Tereaschinko as she arrived at her school in San Francisco. Tereaschinko then shot himself in a failed suicide attempt. Tereaschinko was reportedly upset that Malakanoff refused to elope with him.

It must be because he was an immigrant...

From what it seems, the Missionaries and Lost were equally as upset at getting rejected by Schoolmarms, the more I look at this list the more it seems like quite a dangerous job to hold.

May 18, 1927 - Bath, MI - Bath School disaster. School board member Andrew Kehoe set up a series of explosions in the Bath elementary school. That morning he killed his wife and detonated a bomb inside the school. As people amassed outside, Kehoe detonated his shrapnel-filled vehicle outside the school, in which he took his own life. The bombings constituted the deadliest act of mass murder in any type of school setting in U.S. history.

October 25, 1940 - Cincinnati, OH - 10-year-old Clarence Stevens, a third grade pupil at Holy Name School, was stabbed to death inside a storeroom at the school by 27-year-old Guy Willie Ponder.

May 9, 1944 - New York City, NY - Nine-year-old Margaret Patton was attacked and killed at PS 119 in Harlem by two fellow students. One student held Patton's arms while the other stabbed her to death. Police later arrested 11-year-old Madeline Kirkland, who was charged with murder, and 13-year-old Eileen Foster, who was charged with juvenile delinquency.

Oh the Silents...

September 15, 1959 - Houston, TX - Poe Elementary School attack. The morning that Paul Orgeron's second-grade son is denied enrollment, he detonates an explosive on the school playground during recess, killing himself; his son, Dusty; a teacher; a custodian and two seven-year-old boys. The school principal and 18 students aged six to ten are injured, many seriously.

A vengeful GI?

April 20, 1961 - Chicago, IL - Teacher Josephine Keane, 45, is sexually assaulted and stabbed to death inside a storeroom at Lewis-Champlin elementary school in Chicago. Lee Arthur Hester, a 14-year-old student, is later convicted of the murder and sentenced to 55 years in prison.

Oh those wild Boomers...

January 17, 1974 - Chicago, IL - 14-year-old Steven Guy, apparently angry about being transferred to a social adjustment center, entered Clara W. Barton Elementary School in Chicago with a revolver and a pistol and killed the principal and wounded three others before he was seized by a teacher when both his guns jammed.

Ahh, an angry Joneser.

November 10, 1976 - Detroit, MI - English teacher Betty McCaster, 46, was shot to death by her estranged husband in front of her first grade class at Burt Elementary School in northwest Detroit.

What those poor little Xers had to witness.

January 29, 1979 - San Diego, CA - Armed with a .22-rifle, 16-year-old Brenda Ann Spencer opened fire at Cleveland Elementary School, killing two adults and wounding eight children and one police officer. Spencer was later apprehended after a six-hour stand-off, and she was asked of her motive for the killing, to which she shrugged and infamously replied "I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day."

Xers now.

February 24, 1984 - Los Angelos, CA - At 2:23 p.m. 28-year-old Tyrone Mitchell began shooting at students leaving 49th Street Elementary School in Los Angeles with a 12-gauge shotgun and a rifle from a second-floor window of a building across the street. He killed a 10-year-old girl and wounded 11 other children, as well as a schoolyard supervisor and a passer-by. When police finally stormed the building they found Mitchell's body, who had killed himself with the shotgun. Mitchell had lost his parents, grandmother, brother and four sisters in the Jonestown massacre.

Another angry Boomer.

May 20, 1988 - Winnetka, IL - Laurie Dann walked into a second grade classroom at Hubbard Woods Elementary School carrying a pistol and two revolvers and began shooting children, killing eight-year-old Nicholas Corwin and wounding five others before fleeing. She entered a nearby house where she had shot and wounded a 20-year-old man before killing herself.

Another angry Joneser.

September 26, 1988 - Greenwood, SC - James Wilson, 19, took a .22-caliber pistol to Oakland Elementary School where he shot and killed two students and injured seven other students and two teachers.

Xer strikes back?

January 17, 1989 - Stockton, CA - Patrick Purdy shot and killed five schoolchildren, and wounded 29 other schoolchildren and one teacher on the playground of Cleveland Elementary School. The shooting ended with Purdy committing suicide.

Another Xer.

May 3, 1999 - Costa Mesa, CA - Steven Allen Abrams purposefully drove his car onto the playground of Southcoast Early Childhood Learning Center. He killed two children and injured four other children and an adult. Abrams later stated that he thought the deaths of the children would silence the voices that he thought the US government was beaming into his brain

Another Boomer.

February 2, 2001 - Red Lion, PA - William Stankewicz entered North Hopewell Winterstown Elementary School and brutally slashed two teachers and a principal with a machete. He then subsequently wounded several children in a kindergarten classroom before being subdued by a faculty member

Boomer.

May 7, 2001 - Anchorage, AK - Four students were stabbed in the neck by 33-year-old Jason Pritchard at Mountain View Elementary School

Madness was not confined to only just the 48 continguous states. Oh, and an Xer.

October 2, 2006 - Lancaster County, PA - Amish school shooting. Charles Carl Roberts, a 32-year-old milk-tank truck driver, took hostages and eventually shot ten girls, killing five (aged 7–13), before killing himself at West Nickel Mines School, a one-room Amish schoolhouse.

Not even the Amish are safe. An Xer.

October 8, 2010 - Carlsbad, CA - A middle aged man holding a jack-o-lantern stormed the campus at Kelly Elementary School, his bullets grazing the shoulders of two students, six- and seven-year-olds. The assailant, identified as 41-year-old Brendan Liam O’Rourke, was apprehended by police.

An Xer.

And that's just the list of stuff that's occurred at Elementary schools. My question is, why do they always go for the Kindergarteners? They always seem to be the grade that gets attacked the most.

Now for statistics:

The worst country for these killings?

United States - 48
China - 24 (one happened on the same day with the one in CT)

Everyone else on the list is below 10... including (in no particular order): Canada, United Kingdom, South Africa, Italy, Hungary, Russia, Israel, Egypt, Trinidad & Tobago, Brazil, Japan, Thailand, Germany, Angola, Niger, Latvia, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Belgium, South Korea, Afghanistan, and the Phillipines.

The worst US states for these killings?

California - 9
Illinois - 7
Pennsylvania - 4
New York - 4

The rest either have 1, 2, or 3 (in no particular order): Washington, Vermont, Maryland, Minnesota, South Carolina, Connecticut, Ohio, New Jersey, Alaska, Wyoming, Michigan, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Indiana, Texas, and Washington D.C. (19th Century).

The Generation which perpetrated the most number of incidents (which resulted in deaths only)?

Xer - 11
Boomer - 7
Progressive - 6
Missionary - 5
GI - 5
Lost - 3
Silent - 3
Millennial - 2
Native American Liberty - 1

~Chas'88

After collecting research on "school attacks" here is a map of states colored from most attacks to no attacks. This is including the entire History of school attacks, both Primary and Secondary levels, stretching from 1764 - Present.






~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

America is a very primitive and violent country, enslaved and ensnared by backward, cynical ideologies that keep us in the dark ages while other countries advance. As long as we keep our heads in the sand, and do not pay attention to reality, we will continue to suffer these tragedies. This is the fourth turning. We will confront the results of being shackled with these ideologies every day now, from now on. Things will only get worse until we change. America must take responsibility for voting and acting correctly in our politics and our thinking, or we will continue to suffer a long, slow, painful, self-inflicted death.

We are indeed a violent country. And there's an elephant in the room that seems to be ignored over the loud cry for gun control, it's called the stigma associated with mental illness. Mental illness, coupled with the easy access to assault weapons, is a recipe for disaster.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Agreed. Looking at this list, there hasn't been a decade since the 1860s where there hasn't been some kind of "attack" or killing in the US at an Elementary school. Guns used to be popular, but then apparently we went through a knife/machete phase of recent fame.

Some "interesting conflicts" from that list:\

...And that's just the list of stuff that's occurred at Elementary schools. My question is, why do they always go for the Kindergarteners? They always seem to be the grade that gets attacked the most.

Now for statistics:

The worst country for these killings?

United States - 48
China - 24 (one happened on the same day with the one in CT)

Everyone else on the list is below 10... including (in no particular order): Canada, United Kingdom, South Africa, Italy, Hungary, Russia, Israel, Egypt, Trinidad & Tobago, Brazil, Japan, Thailand, Germany, Angola, Niger, Latvia, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Belgium, South Korea, Afghanistan, and the Phillipines.

The worst US states for these killings?

California - 9
Illinois - 7
Pennsylvania - 4
New York - 4

The rest either have 1, 2, or 3 (in no particular order): Washington, Vermont, Maryland, Minnesota, South Carolina, Connecticut, Ohio, New Jersey, Alaska, Wyoming, Michigan, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Indiana, Texas, and Washington D.C. (19th Century).

The Generation which perpetrated the most number of incidents (which resulted in deaths only)?

Xer - 11
Boomer - 7
Progressive - 6
Missionary - 5
GI - 5
Lost - 3
Silent - 3
Millennial - 2
Native American Liberty - 1

~Chas'88

Careful Chas. Statistical and historical analysis might produce results that fly in the face of popular narrative. Don't you have some group to blame the Connecticut shooting on instead that satisfies a personal agenda? Perhaps you have not seen enough of today's tragedy porn on the pop-news stations yet. I suggest sitting down and watching it until you have to wipe off the drool caused by all of the ringing bells.

I myself turned it off right around the time I saw parents eagerly throwing their children in front of the news cameras and microphones, gently nudging them until they spilled their stories and received their 15 minutes.

Originally Posted by Deb C

We are indeed a violent country. And there's an elephant in the room that seems to be ignored over the loud cry for gun control, it's called the stigma associated with mental illness. Mental illness, coupled with the easy access to assault weapons, is a recipe for disaster.

I don't see any need for the semi-automatic weapons. Also, would like to see more investigation on the effects of games invloving shooting of people.

Originally Posted by Deb C

We are indeed a violent country. And there's an elephant in the room that seems to be ignored over the loud cry for gun control, it's called the stigma associated with mental illness. Mental illness, coupled with the easy access to assault weapons, is a recipe for disaster.

It's easier to get a gun than access to care for mental health. Something is terribly wrong.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

It's easier to get a gun than access to care for mental health. Something is terribly wrong.

That's part of the problem, isn't it?

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

It's easier to get a gun than access to care for mental health. Something is terribly wrong.

It is a problem, definitely. Unfortunately, some mental illnesses tend to be difficult to treat. They are being pretty tight-lipped about the specifics so far. Surely an illness profound enough to result in mass killing of small children has some warning signs. The problem I see with approaching the problem from a mental health perspective is that the public is still pretty ignorant about it. Here is a gem from HuffPo comments:

We should ad "autism" to the list of things that prohibits a person from owning a gun or from anyone in the household he lives in having a gun. We should also start thinking about punishing parents who keep a menatlly ill kid at home without providing a safe environment for others.

Seriously?

Originally Posted by Aramea

It is a problem, definitely. Unfortunately, some mental illnesses tend to be difficult to treat. They are being pretty tight-lipped about the specifics so far. Surely an illness profound enough to result in mass killing of small children has some warning signs. The problem I see with approaching the problem from a mental health perspective is that the public is still pretty ignorant about it.

Yes, and this is why a serious conversation about the issue is crucial. Sure, there will be people who want to take any aspect of mental illness to just another pigeon holed disenfranchised segment of the population but it shouldn't stop us from having intelligent discussion.

I just read this morning some thoughts from Ned Rall about a 2008 study found that six percent of Americans suffer from serious mental illnesses, which resulted in an estimated economic loss of $200 billion annually in lost earnings. (This doesn’t include the one-quarter of the population who have less serious, diagnosable conditions.)

Sixty percent of people with mental illness seek no treatment whatsoever. It’s easy to see why: Americans with limited funds must make do with a lame hodgepodge of options when they feel themselves going off the rails: suicide prevention hotlines, support groups, and absurdly low allocations of shrink visits under group insurance plans.

Along with vision and dental care, mental health is an ugly stepsister of America’s frayed healthcare infrastructure, regarded as a supplemental luxury, and funded accordingly.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

It's easier to get a gun than access to care for mental health. Something is terribly wrong.

Guns are cheap and are bought by individuals who choose to buy them, with their own money. Mental health care is expensive and there is no choice about it - if you need it, you need it. And it is paid for by either the patient's family, who may not be able to pay for it, or by the taxpayers.

The latter fact makes some people very upset since they don't think the taxpayers should pay for benefits to individuals. I can't recall what their answer is to the argument that untreated mental illness can negatively affect society, but in practice, the answers seem to be either prison for the things they do while insane, or being shot by the police.

I would like to hear the solutions proposed by those on these boards who so believe, since I am ignorant of what they are.

Another piece of the puzzle

Extremely interesting interview with Ezra Kline and Janet Rosenbaum, an assistant professor of epidemiology at the School of Public Health at the State University of New York. Apparently, while there is still violence in Israel and Switzerland, making it harder to obtain weapons has made a tremendous difference.

Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias

My post “12 facts about guns and mass shootings” included a mention of Israel and Switzerland, societies where guns are reputed to be widely available, but where gun violence is rare. Janet Rosenbaum, an assistant professor of epidemiology at the School of Public Health at the State University of New York (SUNY) Downstate Medical Center School, has actually researched this question, and she wrote to tell me I had it wrong. We spoke shortly thereafter on the phone. A lightly edited transcript of our conversation follows.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...oting-utopias/

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Guns are cheap and are bought by individuals who choose to buy them, with their own money. Mental health care is expensive and there is no choice about it - if you need it, you need it. And it is paid for by either the patient's family, who may not be able to pay for it, or by the taxpayers.

The latter fact makes some people very upset since they don't think the taxpayers should pay for benefits to individuals. I can't recall what their answer is to the argument that untreated mental illness can negatively affect society, but in practice, the answers seem to be either prison for the things they do while insane, or being shot by the police.

I would like to hear the solutions proposed by those on these boards who so believe, since I am ignorant of what they are.

It appears that while we need to seriously address the complex mental health issues and availability to treatment, making it much harder to obtain guns is the easier fix for now. Until more people are on board with being willing to fund mental health programs and address the stigmas, reforming gun ownership, IMHO, is a must.

It’s Easier For Americans To Access Guns Than Mental Health Services

But the fact remains: in America, it’s currently easier for a poor person to get a gun than it is for them to get treatment for mental health issues.

Originally Posted by Deb C

We are indeed a violent country. And there's an elephant in the room that seems to be ignored over the loud cry for gun control, it's called the stigma associated with mental illness. Mental illness, coupled with the easy access to assault weapons, is a recipe for disaster.

That's a good point; I knew there was another good point to make about all of this.

Chas' stats about states don't seem to take into account the populations of those states. You need percentages, per capita stats to say anything.

A friend put up this post on Facebook claiming that a lot of mass-killers were on mood- and behavior-altering drugs... The site obviously has an agenda, so I went looking for some more information about their claims. One mass-killer from earlier this year had a lot of his medical details released shortly after his attack (he attacked a Psych Hospital that was treating him!)

Found this:

"Law enforcement authorities who searched John F. Shick's North Oakland apartment following his deadly shooting rampage Thursday found 43 medications ranging from psychotropic drugs to pain pills to erectile dysfunction tablets that had been prescribed by about a dozen different doctors, sources close to the probe said."

Kind of relates to what I'm saying in my argument with kinser.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Careful Chas. Statistical and historical analysis might produce results that fly in the face of popular narrative. Don't you have some group to blame the Connecticut shooting on instead that satisfies a personal agenda? Perhaps you have not seen enough of today's tragedy porn on the pop-news stations yet. I suggest sitting down and watching it until you have to wipe off the drool caused by all of the ringing bells.

I myself turned it off right around the time I saw parents eagerly throwing their children in front of the news cameras and microphones, gently nudging them until they spilled their stories and received their 15 minutes.

I prefer listening on the radio via NPR, it usually filters out more of the offensive parts of modern Media. Your last point being one of them.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Chas' stats about states don't seem to take into account the populations of those states. You need percentages, per capita stats to say anything.

Also it is a map that complies over 200 years of information, so a little timeline might be necessary:

California has had a steady stream of these school attacks since the 1900s.

New York's school attacks mostly occurred before the 1980s, with a few modern ones popping up, but much rarer than they were before that.

Illinois, Florida, and Texas, all mostly had their school attacks occur between the period of the 1920s and 1990s, with of course a few others popping up before & after, but much rarer than during the period mentioned.

Here's the list of states in order from when they had their first school attack, with subsequent numbers being additional attacks since then.

Pennsylvania 10
Kentucky 3
Illinois 15
South Carolina 7
West Virginia
New York 24
Missouri 6
Tennessee 9
North Carolina 5
Massachusetts 2
Ohio 11
California 32
Virginia 3
Maryland 2
Colorado 5
Minnesota 4
Florida 13
Connecticut 3
Wisconsin 4
New Mexico 2
Michigan 10
Texas 11
Nevada 3
Kansas 2
Washington 6
Montana
Louisiana 3
Indiana 4
Georgia 5
Wyoming 2
D.C. 3
Alabama 4
Alaska 2
New Jersey 2
Mississippi
Arkansas 2
Oregon 3
Utah
Maine
Iowa
Nebraska
Oklahoma
Vermont

~Chas'88

CA and NY have more just because they have more people.

The school shooting that happened at Pearl High School, happened 4 years after I graduated from that school.

The day it happened, I had brothers and sisters of friends of mine trapped in the commons area where it all happened. I knew the very troubled young man, Luke Woodham from school and the game room arcade that was in town for the kids. My memories of him were that he did have a very bad home life. He was very moody, and a bit on the grudge holding side. He was overweight with greasy hair and bad social skills.

He used to freeze if people talked to him. Yes, he was picked on. But not to the point that the media made out like he was. A lot of kids over the years his age and older did try being his friend but he didn't want friends and he made that clear.

The day that shooting happened was rough waiting to find out who was hurt, how bad and who was dead.

Pearl, MS is a small town of about 25,000. Back in 1997 it had a population of about 18,000. It is mostly a blue collar town, filled with low cost areas and wanna be swanky areas.

I got to see the commons area about 10 years ago. The school made the decision to not patch or paint over the bullet holes in the wall. Some of the holes have been plastic cased over to protect them. There are little plaques to the students that were injured and the 2 that died that day next to the plastic boxes over the bullet holes.

The teacher that risked his life to bring the shooter down, actually got put on suspension for violence toward the student shooter while saving lives. That caused a major flare up here.

He was eventually re-instated as a teacher. He still teaches at Pearl High School now. It's not well known, but Pearl High put into their schools armed security after that. 8 armed security/former military people patrol the grounds and buildings of Pearl High. It makes the students feel safe and the community too.

Every year at graduation now there is a moment of silence for the victims of that day.

School shootings change not only the families that lose people, but it changes the community too.

The lawyer, Ed Rainer, who represented Luke, was forced by the court to do so. They kept having to postpone the hearing because attorneys, even the public defenders kept refusing!