Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Not really. Why should we be experts about guns? People who know a lot about guns, are people who are interested in guns and thus know more about them, or at least claim to know. I know enough, and have learned enough more, to know what the facts are.

How in the world could you possibly determine what "enough" knowledge is? So far, in every topic you post on, you never seem to admit not knowing "enough" about the topic despite others showing you how much you get wrong.

"Enough" seems to be whatever you already know. It's all pure, delusional arrogance on your part.

Why should people be interested in guns? Guns have one purpose: to kill, primarily to kill other people. Those of us who are not interested in that, are not especially interested in guns. And I know that semi-automatics are not hunting rifles,

So much for knowing "enough". Many, many hunting rifles, shotguns and hunting pistols are in fact semi-automatic.

but that doesn't stop some here from just going right on and denying that fact, and then insulting people who disagree with them by calling them ignorant children who don't engage in honest discussion.

You are called ignorant because there is a lot of knowledge on the subject that you don't have. That's the very definition of ignorance. You are called a child because you simply refuse to acknowledge your ignorance and continue to feign teaching others who already know more than you.

Being insulted by that simply shows that deep down you know you are being an ass.

It's too bad, but I didn't want to get involved in this pointless gun debate.

Yeah, right.

It was my mistake to get drawn into it. It is a stupid debate, and people all have their minds made up. It is something to learn more about; but debate? Forget it.

I seriously doubt you are really even interested in the "learning" part either.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Or not:

How would your pooch react to an intruder?


Unless you're talking about having trained protection dogs in schools, accompanied by handlers who know how to manage them (i.e. keep them from attacking the kids.)

I would think that trained dogs would be more reliable and less likely to attack innocent people, or be swayed by food. They use them in the military and bomb detection often, so why not other places? Besides, I doubt if any body would use a dog for mass murder like what's happening with the over the top amount of weapons in this country.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I agree with you Deb. There are better ways of protection.

If this world is going to become a better place to live, we will need to think differently. And on a positive note, some are moving forward and wondering if there are better ways because so much of the status quo thinking is not working.

Onward, my friend.

Originally Posted by Vandal-72

How in the world could you possibly determine what "enough" knowledge is? So far, in every topic you post on, you never seem to admit not knowing "enough" about the topic despite others showing you how much you get wrong.

You don't read my posts, so you don't know. That's OK; I don't want you to read my posts. I don't read yours. You will stay on my ignore list.

So much for knowing "enough". Many, many hunting rifles, shotguns and hunting pistols are in fact semi-automatic.

And people have no business hunting with military assault weapons of the kind that Lanza used to kill 26 people within a few minutes, and fill them each with many bullets. This issue has been covered sufficiently.

You are called ignorant because there is a lot of knowledge on the subject that you don't have. That's the very definition of ignorance. You are called a child because you simply refuse to acknowledge your ignorance and continue to feign teaching others who already know more than you.

Being insulted by that simply shows that deep down you know you are being an ass.

Those who wish to communicate, will do so without insulting. As you do and just did again.

I understand that when people disagree, and are not likely to change their minds, we can get frustrated and speak harshly. I'm sorry about that. I expect no better from you vandal, and so I will not discuss any issues with you. But I should expect better from myself.

I seriously doubt you are really even interested in the "learning" part either.

Not from you. I can learn on my own. Bye.

Military Working Dogs

LACKLAND AIR FORCE BASE, TX -- Army Col. David Rolfe's military career has gone to the dogs.As director of the Defense Department's Military Working Dog Program based here, Rolfe and his staff are responsible for the health and welfare of some of the most unheralded members of the fighting force: its estimated 2,300 working dogs.

These dogs, along with their handlers from every military service, are deployed worldwide to support the war on terror, helping to safeguard military bases and activities and to detect bombs and other explosives before they inflict harm.

With an acute sense of smell five to 10 times stronger than a human's, working dogs are able to detect minute traces of explosives or drugs and alert their handlers of their presence, Rolfe explained.
But at the same time, dogs have ability to inflict fear in an aggressor in a way a human — even if armed — often can't, and will defend their handlers to the end. "People see a dog and don't want to mess with it," said Staff Sgt. Andrew Mier, a military working dog trainer who has deployed to Southwest Asia three times as a handler — twice to Saudi Arabia and once to Qatar. "A dog creates a strong psychological deterrent."

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joint...litarydogs.htm

I am a physician and guns are a disease

Guns have multiplied through our great Nation like a highly virulent virus. They infect one person at a time. Other people become threatened believing their neighbor or that “other” person might be armed. They go out and get guns, more guns. Eventually, like the virus, a gun kills someone. Then, just as a cell bursts and spreads virus through a person’s body, the fear from a gun death results in dozens more grabbing a firearm. “Gun permits skyrocket in Colorado.” More people buy guns and more people are shot. What is the purpose of a gun in the United States? The purpose of a gun is to create guns.

Our society is sick with spreading Gun Disease. It is does not matter whether a gun is legal or illegal, it adds to the carnage and fear and results in more guns. To defend the disease because it is legal or Constitutional is irrelevant. Breast and pancreatic cancer are legal and Constitutional, but I have never heard it said that we should stop doing cancer research because everyone has the right to get sick. A civilized nation does not encourage disease.

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/08/...s-disease.html

Originally Posted by Deb C

I am a physician and guns are a disease




http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/08/...s-disease.html

In a civilized country there should be no reason to buy things whose only purpose is to kill people. Hunting rifles have a legitimate purpose, hunting. Assault weapons do not.

Originally Posted by Odin

..."millitary-style"...

Okay, this right here is the term that's blowing my mind in that you guys see something in it that I just don't get what you think makes "military-style" weapons different from anything else. In the same post you're advocating a Glock Pistol for self defense.

What do you think makes a Glock pistol any different from the bushmaster AR-15 in terms of anything other than physical size of the weapon (pistols being smaller) and the round size (Glock's come in all sizes, my favorite being their .45 which is hands down the nicest .45 semi-automatic I've ever fired, and which is a significantly larger round than the AR-15's plinky 5.56mm). Honestly the "Bushmaster" moniker should give people a clue, the mainufacturers can't find anything more useful to shoot this round at than groundhogs, prarie dogs and other animals that can be hunted by Doxins.

Speaking of Dogs, they're great for certain things, not so for others, and really I wouldn't use them in a school security scenario because there are kids involved and that's quite an X factor when you're dealing with dogs, especially in environments where the animal won't have an opportunity to connect with the children. I'm not a fan of the "arm the teachers" idea, either. Some teachers would handle it well, but there's enough that wouldn't be able to hack it that I just don't even think the notion is anything but laughable. Also, security in public access environments of the type we're talking here is just silly in general and more often creates more problems in other areas than it mitigates.

Originally Posted by The Rani

That asshole shot 20 children. I'm sure that adding a couple of dogs to his list would have posed no problem for him whatsoever.
I don't think it's ethically sound to "use" non-consenting living creatures (dogs, dolphins, horses,) in the military either. Your photo describes how fabulous dogs are ... and we want to thank them by making them targets for psychos?!

Dogs are natural guardians; that's what they do. They might not be good or appropriate as protection against wackos with guns, but if we had fewer guns, they would be a good alternative for protection to guns, since they are good at discouraging and attacking intruders.

And now I wonder how many of these people advocating throwing a bunch of dogs between themselves and a violent person have ever actually owned a dog. I mean, since clearly none of them have ever been around a gun... it would make for an elegant sort of symmetry.

Originally Posted by The Rani

That asshole shot 20 children. I'm sure that adding a couple of dogs to his list would have posed no problem for him whatsoever.
I don't think it's ethically sound to "use" non-consenting living creatures (dogs, dolphins, horses,) in the military either. Your photo describes how fabulous dogs are ... and we want to thank them by making them targets for psychos?!

What are some of your ideas to curb the violence in this country?

Originally Posted by The Rani

I dunno, but it pisses me off. Another fine example of liberal (lack of) compassion.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated” -- Mahatma Gandhi

I'm not advocating putting animals in harms way anymore than we do our police officers or firemen. If dogs have a natural instinct/gift to sniff out guns and deter violence, then let them assist in keeping everyone safer.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Not "using" other living beings for our own purposes would be a great start.

How about some solid ideas that are not misinterpreting my suggestions?

Originally Posted by Justin'77

And now I wonder how many of these people advocating throwing a bunch of dogs between themselves and a violent person have ever actually owned a dog. I mean, since clearly none of them have ever been around a gun... it would make for an elegant sort of symmetry.

That's why I posted what I did about Cerberus. Having grown up around dogs (my parents were part of the Dog Show hobby, and were breeders and judges), they act as a good alarm system (they'll let you know the minute they know something is wrong), but all those melodramatic "man's best friend" stories about how dogs defend their master? Yeah... they're more likely to bark as long as whatever it is keeps its distance, but once it gets too close, it comes running and hiding behind you (still barking at the thing). The only time it takes on the foreign intruder, is if the thing isn't bigger than it is (which unless you have a Great Dane or an Irish Wolfhound, a human is going to be bigger than the dog), or it's another dog. Dogs can't stand stranger dogs and all rules fly out of their head when faced with one. And if it's an overgrown cat (like a Mountain Lion) again, it's feline, therefore the enemy.

There's a reason that dogs were associated with the feminine in traditional symbolism (and it's not just because they howl at the moon). The only genuine attack dogs that I've encountered, are dogs that you don't want living in your home--and most definitely not around children--because they're ticking time bombs.

The only exception to this, is if you have a pack of dogs, then they'll go after just about anything as long as they're with their pack--but picking up after the pack and paying to feed them gets very costly very quickly. Also the pack has that "herd mentality" which doesn't always work to the best ability when chasing someone off your property... yeah.

Dogs were a great security when our biggest worries were other animals (mostly Mountain Lions) attacking us. But now that the intruder is most likely going to be human. That changes things.

And if you're going to still try this out, then I'd suggest not getting an attack dog (we need to hear less stories about "Pit bull/Rottweiler attacks Child"), instead go for one of the Hound or Working breeds. Dogs are the species that humans have been tinkering and tampering with for centuries (that's how we got so many breeds--a lot of breeding), and the different breeds have been bred for different reasons. Hounds and Working breeds were bred for Hunting and Retrieving, so they're the next best thing after an attack dog (my parents bred Hounds though, and they still ran behind me at the first sign of danger, and I was eight, so they're not a guarantee even there). There are some wonderful Working and Hound dogs out there. Don't just go out and get any old dog, pay attention to what the breeds were bred for, that'll give you a good idea of what they're "designed" to do. Sure Mutts are wonderful and it's great to get them as well, but in that case you're getting a "surprise bag". The AKC (American Kennel Club) has a wonderful book that breaks down each breed and what they were bred for.

And last but not least, know the personality of your dog--and if you want a dog that's more likely to go on the defensive, get a bitch and breed her. That way any intruder will be seen as a threat to her puppies and even if they're grown and gone, mother bitches are still as defensive.

That's about all the dog advice I can give.

Originally Posted by The Rani

I dunno, but it pisses me off. Another fine example of liberal (lack of) compassion.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated” -- Mahatma Gandhi

Agreed, especially when you consider what those "attack dogs" had to endure in order to get "trained". And that's just the beginning of the horrors we do to our fellow animals.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by The Rani

Not "using" other living beings for our own purposes would be a great start.

Agreed, the best pet relationships occur, I've found when there isn't the master/slave dynamic in place. Although applying that to cats I've found, has made them quite clingy...

~Chas'88

One brief quibble, Chas. Great Danes are big, but they're not a guard or even a working breed. For temperament, you'd be hard-pressed to find a type of dog more inclined to be a warm, lazy lump.

Originally Posted by The Rani

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated” -- Mahatma Gandhi

All living things have value. This is why a country can be judged in the ways that it treats it's population as a whole, including animals. Ours is doing a rotten job.

More semi-automatic weapons and multiple bullet magazines are not the answers to our growing violence in this country. There just has to be a better way.

More from the moral authority on preventing mass murders

PO MURRAY, Newtown, Conn., resident: I came because Adam Lanza and Nancy Lanza lived 100 yards from my home.

And I was shocked and dismayed when I found out that they owned six guns, and many of them being assault weapons that, you know, created havoc in our community.

SCOTT WOLFMAN, Newtown, Conn., resident: It's extraordinarily vile to take an assault rifle and kill 20 children. It just -- it strikes so deeply with all of us, and so looking back at Columbine, looking back at Virginia Tech and all these spree killings that are happening in our country at alarming rates.

JAMES BELDEN: My family came tragically close to being one of those families. My niece was only saved by her teacher kicking the door shot and being shot in her foot.

LINDA LUBINSKY, Newtown, Conn., resident: When we tell people we're from Newtown, people will say, I'm sorry to hear that. What I want people to say is, I'm sorry for the pain you experienced, but also -- but I'm so proud of what you did with that experience.

HARI SREENIVASAN: Several of you said this is an opportunity for us, and we have to take advantage of this moment. But what does that mean?

PO MURRAY: I feel the politicians have failed to protect our children. And they cannot continue to do this to our children. They need to really pass legislation that is going to have a meaningful impact to prevent further tragedy.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/social_issues/july-dec12/connecticut_12-18.html

I like dogs. They make wonderful companions, service animals, and combination vacuum cleaners and alarm systems. I don't think agressive animals are an answer to mass violence.

The animal rights issues are a seperate topic that should be on another thread. There's little doubt that human versus human is the primary topic, here.

Originally Posted by Bad Dog

I like dogs. They make wonderful companions, service animals, and combination vacuum cleaners and alarm systems. I don't think agressive animals are an answer to mass violence.

The animal rights issues are a seperate topic that should be on another thread. There's little doubt that human versus human is the primary topic, here.

Your right , of course, about dogs not being used as attack animals. I regret posting the piece about the military because they are known for *using* humans and animals for their military tactics. I would much rather have a dog that was an alarm against a possible threat. And their barking has proven to be somewhat of a deterrent to intruders.

I also have no problem with them being trained to sniff out potential problems. However, I would never want them to be trained for attack. Although, I have had dogs who wouldn't let certain people get near me unless I told them it was okay. They wouldn't bite or growl, but would stand their ground between me and another person.

I agree, animals might need to be trained as assist dogs but never trained to act like some of our militaristic minded society.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You don't read my posts, so you don't know. That's OK; I don't want you to read my posts.

I don't care what you want. I'll read whatever I want to read.

I don't read yours. You will stay on my ignore list.

Clearly that isn't true. This response of yours gives up the lie.

And people have no business hunting with military assault weapons of the kind that Lanza used to kill 26 people within a few minutes, and fill them each with many bullets.

More ignorance and lies from you. I stated that many hunting rifles, pistols and shotguns are semi-automatic. Your response refers to assault weapons. Have you ever had an honest discussion about anything?

This issue has been covered sufficiently.

And in that coverage, it became evidently clear that you don't know anything about firearms.

Those who wish to communicate, will do so without insulting. As you do and just did again.

Pot, meet kettle.

I understand that when people disagree, and are not likely to change their minds, we can get frustrated and speak harshly. I'm sorry about that. I expect no better from you vandal, and so I will not discuss any issues with you. But I should expect better from myself.

Pointing out how ignorant and dishonest you behave is not speaking harshly. Pointing out that you are behaving like an ass is not being harsh.

Not from you. I can learn on my own. Bye.

All evidence in this forum indicates that you are unwilling to learn from anyone. All you do is stand on your soapbox and look down and denigrate anyone who disagrees with your personal opinions. You insult the skills, experiences, and knowledge of others because it conflicts with how you think reality should work rather than how it does.

I think we all could use some pet therapy...

Originally Posted by The Rani

This is (part of) what I meant when I posted elsewhere that our entire society is sick.
We butcher animals by the millions in slaughterhouses, and torture them by the millions in laboratories.
We slaughter people by the thousands in unnecessary wars.
It's all part of the same mentality that leads certain individuals to think that it's ok to shoot up a bunch of moviegoers, shoppers, or schoolchildren.
Gun control doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the problem.

Or the same mentality that leads some of Chicago's finest to think it's okay to shoot up family pets.

Don't worry though these guys are well-trained in the use of firearms and according to some, should be the only ones allowed to carry.

Just because this amuses me greatly:

The Journal News decided to post an interactive map of local New York handgun permit holders. Names, home addresses, street views, that sort of thing (the original article can be found here).

Unfortunately for this particular media collective we live in the information age and justice on the internet tends to be swift. It didn't take long for a few enterprising individuals to dig up the names, addresses, and street views of various publishers, editors and writers at The Journal News and post them online.

Ahh the power of information. I must say that the publisher, a Mrs. Hasson, has a very lovely home! And worth just a shade under $1.4 million too (I wonder if she qualifies as a "one-percenter"). Unfortunately for Mrs. Hasson, thanks to her little map we know she doesn't have a permit for a handgun. Bummer.

All joking aside folks, cherish your anonymity.

The lulz just keep coming today!

A few days ago some folks created a little petition on the White House website requesting that Piers Morgan be deported back to England for his vicious attacks on the second amendment.

Unfortunately for Piers it seems that his country-men and women don't want him back and have started a counter-petition to stop his deportation because, "We got rid of him once and why should we have to suffer again". I wonder what it is like to be hated in every country you land on.