42 Mass murders in the 1990's and 26 in the 00's...perhaps you dont understand basic math...Originally Posted by Eric the Green
http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ings-john-fund#
http://reason.com/blog/2012/12/17/ar...ng-more-common
Last edited by Weave; 01-25-2013 at 03:22 PM.
It is pretty clear that your goal is to end "gun ownership" and not "gun violence".
Why is that not a good goal?
("gun ownership" not restricted in its meaning to legal ownership, but possession)
I'm not saying there should be a total gun ban, enforced by gun violence. I have made that clear. But claiming that "gun owners" are "responsible" is the wrong approach. I know that such subtleties elude you gun lovers. But more people need to see that gun ownership is wrong. Thankfully, that is the trend, and I hope it continues. Meanwhile, the gun nuts have more and more guns. And it has become easier to legally buy them and to carry them in public. The USA is indeed becoming the Wild West shootout show.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 01-25-2013 at 03:28 PM.
I like my left-wing source better than your right-wing ones.
Eric the Red's idea of a responsible citizen....
Your plan doesn't work either.
Red is now the color of Republicans, so I am Eric the Green, because I'm a Green Party member. Get it?
Green is the new Red as it is basically the same warmed over marxist drivel....
Although many Greens are described as watermellons with a red interior, red is too clearly now the Republican color to refer to leftists in America any longer.
But again, equating today's left with marxism is just another example of how subtleties elude you. You guys are unable to think in anything but simple-minded terms with simple answers-- mostly based on fear.
I am quite capable of seeing "subtleties", thank you. I am as concerned as you are that there are so many firearms in the country. I also am capable of understanding that not everyone lives like I do. I understand why someone might want a gun around for home defense or removing pests on a farm, etc. You are the one that doesn't see that there are people that don't live like you do and don't want to. Using your logic, there are no responsible knife, automobile, rat poison or dog owners, as each of those are capable of killing a person.
You are choosing to live in fear of "scary guns" which is of course your right to do so. You also are willing to submit to criminals and concievably a possible tyranical govt. I, like my Scots-Irish ancestors refuse to live in this fashion. I take responsibility for my welfare and hope not to have to rely on the police to protect me as where I live they are up tp 45 minutes away in a crisis....
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/
"Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.
We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability
using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found
that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there
are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States
is excluded. - Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88."
"Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional
studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US,
where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for
homicide, particularly firearm homicide. - Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40. "
Motorists with guns are more likely to engage in types of road rage (USA)
Over 2,400 licensed drivers responded to questions about their own
aggressive driving in a 2004 national random digit dial survey. We
found that 17% of respondents admitted to making obscene or rude
gestures in the past year, and another 9% admitted to aggressively
following too closely. Males, young adults, binge drinkers, those ever
arrested for a non-traffic violation, and motorists who had been in a
vehicle in which there was a gun, were more likely to engage in such
forms of road rage.
A world without guns (actually the whole movie is worth a watch):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bOQitInC84
Good.
No, using my logic, knives and automobiles have other uses besides killing people. I understand that people in different localities think they need guns, and am willing to compromise in what I support regarding gun laws. At bottom though, no, I don't think guns are necessary, and yes I think people need to change the notions of how they "need to live." I can just see a better day, that's all. Hunting may be an established hobby, and I understand people disagree with me; but no I do not think it is necessary; let the park rangers handle too many pests, and farmers can use dogs and fences, etc. Let the animals live; we have already killed off so many species. And there are other and better ways to do the things you mention; especially "home defense."I also am capable of understanding that not everyone lives like I do. I understand why someone might want a gun around for home defense or removing pests on a farm, etc. You are the one that doesn't see that there are people that don't live like you do and don't want to. Using your logic, there are no responsible knife, automobile, rat poison or dog owners, as each of those are capable of killing a person.
Probably the hand "works" best.
But, Eric, guns do have other uses, which you try to waive off. You just dismiss them. Why should a farmer allow foxes to kill his chickens? Why should a woman living alone be a sitting duck for her crazy ex to come rape and murder? These are not your decisions to make. Do you know anything about farming? Dogs are useful on farms, but they have to be managed, just like any other tool. I can't imagine that there is a single farm out there without at least a shotgun around.
I don't like gun violence and mass shootings. I don't live in fear because I live in a peaceful neighborhood. I recommend that; it's one of the better ways of "self-defense."
If we had gun control, fewer criminals and other crazies would have guns. Government works. There are lots better ways of self-defense than shootouts and guns that are more likely to be used for accidents, passion-killings, and stolen by criminals. Guns for self-defense is just another red herring, and does not work.You also are willing to submit to criminals and conceivably a possible tyrannical govt. I, like my Scots-Irish ancestors refuse to live in this fashion. I take responsibility for my welfare and hope not to have to rely on the police to protect me as where I live they are up to 45 minutes away in a crisis....
Yes, you Xers are obsessed with individualism and survivalism. No thank you. You don't live in a safe neighborhood, and perhaps you live in Appalachia (Scots-Irish heritage). You can keep them.
No, armed citizens are no match for a tyrannical government; which we don't have. If we did have one, like the people of Syria do, then you might have a point; but you are going to have to organize an entire army, with imported weapons, with commanders and strategy and good generals like Robert E. Lee or George Washington. If you are just getting ready either for a shootout with police, or a shootout with criminals, you will likely lose.
Oh yeah, and comparing the cases of Lee and Washington; Lee was a better general, but Washington had the French. An ally will help too; it would help the Syrians if they had more support too.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 01-25-2013 at 04:18 PM.
Because I can see better ways, as I mentioned. Why waive them off? Until people see that, yes, as I said, I am willing to compromise and not take shotguns away from farmers.
I think so! Water and bottles have no other uses. Well, at least the guy throwing the bottle should go back, pick it up, and recycle it. Otherwise it will kill fish out in the Pacific. I want responsible bottle owners!Another good reason to outlaw bottled water!
Let's stop the spiral of bottle violence!“It’s much more convenient to fill up your water bottle at a water fountain than to buy bottled water,” says Mikayla McDonald, a recent graduate, who a few years ago helped to launch the campaign that led to UVM’s ban. McDonald hopes it will reduce waste. But for her, it’s not just about changing behavior on campus.
“Bottled water is a symbol of our culture’s obsession with commodifying things that should be public trust resources,” she says.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 01-25-2013 at 04:14 PM.
I tend to agree that the "tyrannical government" argument is specious. Our government is far from tyrannical and your Bushmaster isn't going to cut it if it ever becomes so. I live in a safe neighborhood and I do not own a gun, unless you count the pellet gun my husband uses to get the woodpeckers off the roof. I do like that I have the option to procure one if I ever felt like I needed it for any purpose. I am not sure how everyone could "move to a safer place". That is a bit illogical.
Is the AP a "right wing" organization? Is this study they cite a "right wing"...sorry but mass shootings are not on the rise...
http://news.yahoo.com/no-rise-mass-k...185700637.html
I'm not sure everyone could, indeed. But many people can; it's one of many alternatives. It certainly helps to remove any "fear of guns" Weave accuses me of having.
People in unsafe neighborhoods who can't afford to move really need to step up and stop the killing. Gang violence needs to stop, and drug addiction needs treatment. There need to be more economic opportunity than this trickle-down, wealth-oriented, "take responsibility for my own welfare" society provides. And there needs to be more gun laws in these communities. The people who actually live in these places, want them. They are prevented from having them by southern and midwestern folks who want guns for hunting and farming. Can't we have a regional compromise here?
Last edited by Eric the Green; 01-25-2013 at 04:31 PM.
They are probably not mass shootings. The Mother Jones site was thorough, and gave a precise definition of mass shootings from 1982 to today. The numbers from that I listed in my post above. Also remember what I posted that says assaults are rising as guns are rising. They may result in fewer murders only because treatment is better."There is no pattern, there is no increase," says criminologist James Allen Fox of Boston's Northeastern University, who has been studying the subject since the 1980s, spurred by a rash of mass shootings in post offices.
The random mass shootings that get the most media attention are the rarest, Fox says. Most people who die of bullet wounds knew the identity of their killer.
Even if mass shootings are on the decline, nothing says that they need be ignored in public policy.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Ah yes, everyone's favorite war profiteer Dianne Feinstein. Politicians who have blood on their hands stand up on stage oozing crocodile tears over "saving lives" makes me grow a big rubbery one.Senator Unveils Bill to Limit Semiautomatic Arms
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/us...arms.html?_r=0
Senator Dianne Feinstein announced plans at a news conference on Thursday to introduce a bill that would outlaw a large number of different assault weapons.
By JENNIFER STEINHAUER
Published: January 24, 2013
WASHINGTON — During a lengthy and at times emotionally wrenching news conference, Senator Dianne Feinstein of California on Thursday announced legislation that would ban the sale and manufacture of 157 types of semiautomatic weapons, as well as magazines holding more than 10 rounds of ammunition.
...Such a measure is vehemently opposed by the National Rifle Association and many Republicans lawmakers, as well as some Democrats. “I don’t think you should have restrictions on clips,” said Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, who has said he welcomes a Senate debate on guns. “The Second Amendment wasn’t written so you can go hunting, it was to create a force to balance a tyrannical force here.”
President Obama has called on Congress to act on some gun restrictions; on Thursday afternoon, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. was to hold an online “fireside hangout” via Google.
Oh he didn't distort the meaning at all. The ability to destroy a tyrannical government is indeed one of the big reasons for the second amendment. We know this because the guys who helped write it said so:
"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a
standing army, the bane of liberty.... Whenever Governments mean to invade the
rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia,
in order to raise an army upon their ruins." (Rep. Elbridge Gerry of
Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment [ I Annals
of Congress at 750 {August 17, 1789}])
"...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave
them." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380)
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of
other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
(James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)
"the ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone," (James Madison, author
of the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper #46.)
"...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an
army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the
people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to
them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..."
(Alexander Hamilton speaking of standing armies in Federalist 29.)
"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the
people of almost every other nation. . . Notwithstanding the military
establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as
the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people
with arms." (James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper
No. 46.)
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt
to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to
defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow
citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and
bear their private arms." (Tench Coxe in `Remarks on the First Part of the
Amendments to the Federal Constitution' under the Pseudonym `A Pennsylvanian' in
the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1)
"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other
terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American... The
unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state
government, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the
people" (Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788)
"The Constitution shall never be construed....to prevent the people of the
United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms" (Samuel
Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of
Massachusetts, 86-87)
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always
possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them."
(Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and
member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights, Walter Bennett,
ed., Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republican, at 21,22,124 (Univ. of
Alabama Press,1975)..)
"The great object is that every man be armed" and "everyone who is able may have
a gun." (Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the
Constitution. Debates and other Proceedings of the Convention of
Virginia,...taken in shorthand by David Robertson of Petersburg, at 271, 275 2d
ed. Richmond, 1805. Also 3 Elliot, Debates at 386)
"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from
time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take
arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood
of patriots and tyrants" (Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in
1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939)
... Can anyone else see Eric accusing Thomas Jefferson of raising a rebel army and demanding that the police execute him in his home?
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who
approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright
force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" (Patrick
Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed.
Philadelphia, 1836)
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is,
as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." --
(Thomas Jefferson)
"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the
American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the
hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and
tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and
pistol are equally indispensable . . . the very atmosphere of firearms
everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all
that is good" (George Washington)
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise
the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness,
enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others
of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind.
Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks. (Thomas
Jefferson, Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318 [Foley, Ed., reissued 1967])
(The American Colonies were) "all democratic governments, where the power is in
the hands of the people and where there is not the least difficulty or jealousy
about putting arms into the hands of every man in the country. (European
countries should not) be ignorant of the strength and the force of such a form
of government and how strenuously and almost wonderfully people living under one
have sometimes exerted themselves in defence of their rights and liberties and
how fatally it has ended with many a man and many a state who have entered into
quarrels, wars and contests with them." [George Mason, "Remarks on Annual
Elections for the Fairfax Independent Company" in The Papers of George Mason,
1725-1792, ed Robert A. Rutland (Chapel Hill, 1970)]
"It is not certain that with this aid alone [possession of arms], they would not
be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to posses the additional
advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the
national will, and direct the national force; and of officers appointed out of
the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia,
it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny
in Europe would be speedily overturned, in spite of the legions which surround
it." (James Madison, "Federalist No. 46")
Mass shootings force us to think of guns, and guns force us to think of the nastiness in our society, and contemplation of the nastiness of our society then compels us to cease doing politics on autopilot. So far the liberals on the whole seem far more flexible. The Hard Right on the whole seems to have a rigid set of taboos -- do not discuss economic inequality except to praise it, do not discuss the shabbiness of the public sector except to gut it or sell it off, do not contest any corporate profit because profit is holy and people are profane.
The 3T got a reprieve in 2011. It got its second chance. It failed.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
