Originally Posted by Justin '77

Personal responsibility, man. It's what makes civilization work.

So war and murder is great if carried out by individuals, but not by states.

In my universe, it also takes cooperation and law to make civilization work, and a recognition that what is good for society is what's best for me personally too. It is to recognize that the "invisible hand" is a delusion, and that trickle-down economics is nothing but a worthless tinkle. "Everyone for themselves" is what makes civilization fall apart.

You seem to think you are an expert in the realm of science, and that I am a dilettante. But this kind of thinking about society's issues on your part (e.g. "Personal responsibility, man. It's what makes civilization work.") is not exactly of a deeply-thoughtful variety. I do think you can do better, FWIW (And I am capable of learning science too).

Father of Sandy Hook son testifies:

http://youtu.be/LTtH6SmruJI

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Funny you should mention that particular model of shotgun... I own one, or more accurately my father does (it will be mine someday). As the story goes, sometime in the late 1960's he was out in the middle-of-nowhere Nebraska when he found an old, abandoned Winchester 1897 shotgun propped up against a tree. He brought it home and attempted to find the owner but never could. I recently traced the serial number back to the year it was manufactured... 1911. It's over 100 years old.

Actually, I chose that model due to it's history. Germany sued over the use of that shotgun in World War I, stating that it violated the laws of war. That "simple" pump action shotty was considered the most savage and brutal war machine ever created (and automatic weapons had already been in use).

So congratulations, you're going to inherit a real piece of history. I hope it's in good condition, or restorable to a good condition.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You have proven my prophecy correct. Score another one for E. Alan Meece! You have continued to use snark to discuss gun control.

Not quite. Did you actually read that link to that conservative rag, the LA times? I dare you to admit that operation Fast and Furious was not a perfect example of ineptitude. Hmmm... LA? Gun control. Let's here it, Eric can get never enough of gun control discussions.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Obama's Gone shooting.



Good toking music.

No thank you Rags. I prefer JB

Fast and Furious is irrelevant. Just more right-wing propaganda. I still claim my successful prediction.

Being an elite special operator makes you immune to getting killed:

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...99.html?hp=l13

And, he was well armed, too.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

No thank you Rags. I prefer JB

Fast and Furious is irrelevant. Just more right-wing propaganda. I still claim my successful prediction.

Oh , OK, Public Integrity is a right wing front organization then. I suppose those stories about Wal*Mart wage thefts are "right wing" conspiracies as well.

Originally Posted by public integrity

About the Center for Public Integrity

The Center for Public Integrity was founded in 1989 by Charles Lewis. We are one of the country's oldest and largest nonpartisan, nonprofit investigative news organizations. Our mission: To enhance democracy by revealing abuses of power, corruption and betrayal of trust by powerful public and private institutions, using the tools of investigative journalism.

OK, here you go. Please call these people liars or right wing nut jobs. I dare you.

Just like POC. You deserve a video. Yummy. Al Gore sells out to Al Jazeera. What a , er um. crude deal that is. Hypocrisy? Man, big time dick stepping here.



Yeah, and Tipper is delusional in thinking some music is "possessed".

Big fat disclaimer: The fact that 1 Aquarian Boomer so caught is a web of deceit in no way means that ALL Aquarian Boomers, including Rag's cousins cast webs of deceit.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Oh , OK, Public Integrity is a right wing front organization then. I suppose those stories about Wal*Mart wage thefts are "right wing" conspiracies as well.

I could care less about any wing conspiracies, left or right. Fast and Furious has nothing to do with anything. Still posting on this thread? I thought you were "through with the gun control discussion?" I guess not!

...Al Gore sells out to Al Jazeera. What a , er um. crude deal that is. Hypocrisy? Man, big time dick stepping here.



Yeah, and Tipper is delusional in thinking some music is "possessed".

Big fat disclaimer: The fact that 1 Aquarian Boomer so caught is a web of deceit in no way means that ALL Aquarian Boomers, including Rag's cousins cast webs of deceit.

This stupid video does not allow Gore to respond, so I will give his response here.

I understand, and I don't agree with Tipper, the ex-Mrs. Gore. But in Gore's opinion, Al Jazeera is a good news organization and does a good job, even if funded by a government from an oil rich nation. All these accusations against Al Gore are pointless. I suppose they may keep him out of politics. It's a shame; he would have been so much better than Dubya, and I still think he's a better candidate than the others out there; a potential gray champion. We'll see.

From the former vice president and #1 New York Times bestselling author comes An Inconvenient Truth for everything—a frank and clear-eyed assessment of six critical drivers of global change in the decades to come.

Ours is a time of revolutionary change that has no precedent in history. With the same passion he brought to the challenge of climate change, and with his decades of experience on the front lines of global policy, Al Gore surveys our planet’s beclouded horizon and offers a sober, learned, and ultimately hopeful forecast in the visionary tradition of Alvin Toffler’s Future Shock and John Naisbitt’s Megatrends. In The Future, Gore identifies the emerging forces that are reshaping our world:

• Ever-increasing economic globalization has led to the emergence of what he labels “Earth Inc.”—an integrated holistic entity with a new and different relationship to capital, labor, consumer markets, and national governments than in the past.

• The worldwide digital communications, Internet, and computer revolutions have led to the emergence of “the Global Mind,” which links the thoughts and feelings of billions of people and connects intelligent machines, robots, ubiquitous sensors, and databases.

• The balance of global political, economic, and military power is shifting more profoundly than at any time in the last five hundred years—from a U.S.-centered system to one with multiple emerging centers of power, from nation-states to private actors, and from political systems to markets.
• A deeply flawed economic compass is leading us to unsustainable growth in consumption, pollution flows, and depletion of the planet’s strategic resources of topsoil, freshwater, and living species.

• Genomic, biotechnology, neuroscience, and life sciences revolutions are radically transforming the fields of medicine, agriculture, and molecular science—and are putting control of evolution in human hands.

• There has been a radical disruption of the relationship between human beings and the earth’s ecosystems, along with the beginning of a revolutionary transformation of energy systems, agriculture, transportation, and construction worldwide.

From his earliest days in public life, Al Gore has been warning us of the promise and peril of emergent truths—no matter how “inconvenient” they may seem to be. As absorbing as it is visionary, The Future is a map of the world to come, from a man who has looked ahead before and been proven all too right.

http://atrandom.com/the-future/

Al does a good job answering one of those "right wing" commentators here:

http://youtu.be/P6U9vRZXx68?t=3m28s

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I could care less about any wing conspiracies, left or right. Fast and Furious has nothing to do with anything. Still posting on this thread? I thought you were "through with the gun control discussion?" I guess not!

1. There is no conspiracy. Fast and Furious demonstrated what a bunch of keystone cops/clowns inhabit the BAT Fucker agency.
2. Why does this matter? It is the selfsame agency that would enforce any new gun laws.
3. Well, since you caught me with 1 mess up wrt gun control discussions and claimed you were right, I may as well prove you right a whole bunch of times now.

This stupid video does not allow Gore to respond, so I will give his response here.

OK, here's an article. Yes, you may feel free to call Forbes a right wing rag, but hell, this is one juicy article.

Originally Posted by Forbes

Al Gore's Oil-Fueled Al-Jazeera Deal Follows A String Of Green Energy Fiascos

Al Gore, chairman and co-founder of Current TV, and Joel Hyatt, executive vice chairman and co-founder of Current TV. (Image credit: via @daylife)


Al-Jazeera, the anti-Israeli network funded by Qatar, closed a deal with the struggling left-wing cable station Current TV founded by Al Gore which gives the them access to 40 million U.S. homes. Unfortunately for Mr. Gore, the purchase wasn’t consummated until January 2^nd, depriving him of success in his efforts to beat the clock on an estimated $100 million payback before higher tax rates kicked in on January 1.
That number of household connections would have been 12.5 million higher had it not been for an immediate decision by Time Warner Cable not to show Al-Jazeera programing on its system. The company issued a statement that “Our agreement with Current has been terminated and will no longer be carrying the service. We are removing the service as quickly as possible.”
Gore, who has previously purported to be a supporter of Israel, has defended the arrangement, claiming that Al-Jazeera’s mission was similar to that of Current TV, giving “voice to those who are not typically heard, to speak truth to power, to provide independent and diverse points of view and to tell the stories that no one else is telling”…the inconvenient truth, no doubt. These “diverse” points of view have been observed to present a pro-Islamist bias. In 2011, one of its journalists was arrested in Israel on suspicion of being an agent of the Palestinian group Hamas. Dave Marash, a former Nightline reporter who worked for Al-Jazeera in Washington, said that he left the network in 2008 because he sensed an anti-American bias there.
Al Gore and some investment partners originally purchased the Canadian news network News World International (NWI) in 2004 for $70 million and renamed it Current TV. Those partners included former Goldman Sachs senior director and Democratic Finance Committee chair Philip Murphy, Senator Diane Feinstein’s husband Richard Blum, Sun Microsystems co-founder Bill Joy, and former AOL Time Warner CEO Bill Pittman. That same year, he co-founded Generation Investment Management LLP (GIM) with three partners; former chief of Goldman Sachs Asset Management David Blood and two others from that firm. GIM is a London-based firm that invests money from institutions and wealthy investors that are “going green”.
GIM and Goldman Sachs (GSAM) were also big investors in the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) which has worked to become the New York Stock Exchange for carbon offset marketing, provided that federal cap-and-trade legislation Gore has lobbied for was enacted. Speaking before a 2007 U.S. Joint House Energy and Science Committee, he said: “As soon as carbon has a price, you’re going to see a wave of investment in it…there will be unchained investment”. What better way to reduce evil carbon than to make it a profitable commodity? CCX closed its doors after the September 2, 2010 House elections removed that opportunity.

Since his non-election to the presidency, Mr. Gore has accumulated an estimated net worth well in excess of $100 million. In addition to his six-figure global warming speaking gigs, he signed on as a Google advisor in 2001–before it went public–and received stock options reportedly valued at more than $30 million.

Gore joined the venture capital group Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Buyers in November 2007, whose key partner, John Doerr, has been pushing hard for biofuel subsidies. His firm GIM also became a KPCB affiliate. As vice president, Gore had cast a 1994 Senate tie-breaking vote in favor of ethanol mandates, but has subsequently admitted regrets. He stated four years later that, “One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had certain fondness of the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for president”.

Over the five years since Al Gore joined KPCB to promote environmentally-correct “green tech” investments, the results have been pretty dismal. According to VentureSource, of the more than 60 companies that have received KPCB equity backing, only three have been acquired or merged into other companies. And since the time Gore joined KPCB, only two have managed to go public. Shareholders of one, Amyris, Inc. a biomass company, have lost 80% of their value since the firm’s 2010 IPO. The other, Enphase Energy which went public last March, was listed by the Wall Street Journal in December as the *worst IPO of the year.

Amyris is a UC-Berkeley-spawned genetic engineering company originally funded by Bill Gates which raised $16 per share during its 2010 IPO. The company then got big news again when Fidelity bought 6.2 million shares in February 2012 at $5.78 per share. It’s now selling at about $3.20.
Although the initial plan was to use genetically-engineered microbes to produce a cheap version of antimalarial medicine to replace a drug naturally derived from a wormwood plant grown by farmers in Asia and Africa, their product didn’t afford a price advantage. Next the company converted the microbe to produce means to create ethanol fuel from plant cellulose, and following scale-up and cost problems, abandoned that dream to focus upon higher cost chemicals used in cosmetics.
In 2012, Emphase, a solar company, initially planned to price its IPO in the $10-$12 range, but closed at $6 per share. The purchasers, including KCPB, RockPort Capital and Bay Partners, have since lost nearly half of their investment, with the stock price standing at about $3.30. According to the company’s own estimates, it is unlikely to post any net profit in the near future.
As reported in the Wall Street Journal, the biggest KCPB headaches “probably didn’t come from the ones that have gone public, but from green ventures that haven’t yet been sold to other investors.” Among the biggest of these is U.S. taxpayer-subsidized Fisker Automotive, Inc., where the firm, along with Advanced Equities, and the Qatar Investment Authority, reportedly sank more than $1 billion.
Fisker is a politically-connected start-up company which was supposed to produce a $100 thousand Karma “economy” car which was actually being built in Finland. KCPB partner John Doerr, a billionaire tech mogul, serves on President Obama’s Economic Recovery Advisory board. Another senior partner is Al Gore.
Fisker had originally planned to sell 15,000 Karmas in 2012, but then ratcheted down its projections to 10,000. Reportedly, as of now, more than 2,000 have been produced. Over four years of development, the Karma’s price rose from $80,000 to more than $100,000.
After receiving American stimulus support, along with another $21 million provided by the State of Delaware in response to a promise to build the cars there, the company has suspended construction of a U.S. manufacturing facility for a different car, and has laid off 26 employees and 40 contractors. This is to allow time for an original $529 million loan guarantee commitment to be renegotiated with our government due to Karma production delays and a vehicle recall… after already spending $193 million of that amount. And according to an interview with Delaware’s News Journal, Alan Levin, the head of the state’s economic development office, now says, “All we want are the jobs and the money back.”
Still, various green energy paybacks have afforded Mr. Gore with means for an opulent and hardly “carbon neutral” lifestyle. His Bell Meade area Nashville mansion alone, one of three Gore homes, was reported to use about 221,000 kWh of electricity per year, more than 20 times the amount consumed by average American households. He has defended this by claiming that some of this power comes from “renewable” sources, with the balance cancelled out by carbon offsets purchased through GIM, apparently making it all okay. This might seem a bit incongruent, however, to some viewers who were asked at the end of his 2006 An Inconvenient Truth movie– “Are you ready to change the way you live?”
Yet Al Gore has been known to stand on principles…as he sees them. For example, when Glen Beck’s far-right program, The Blaze, approached Current TV with an interest in purchasing them last year, they were reportedly told that “…the legacy of who the network goes to is important to us and we are sensitive to networks not aligned with our point of view.” Besides, selling to fossil fuel-financed Al-Jazeera, which apparently is much more aligned with Current’s philosophy, probably provided a lot more green.

*Worst IPO of 2012. Wow, now that's saying something after Faceplant's and Zynga's IPO's which crashed and burned. I'm glad I didn't invest in those.

I understand, and I don't agree with Tipper, the ex-Mrs. Gore. But in Gore's opinion, Al Jazeera is a good news organization and does a good job, even if funded by a government from an oil rich nation. All these accusations against Al Gore are pointless. I suppose they may keep him out of politics. It's a shame; he would have been so much better than Dubya, and I still think he's a better candidate than the others out there; a potential gray champion. We'll see.

Gray champion? I think he'd be a dollar-green champion or a crude-oil brown champion. I do hope all of his dick stepping keeps him away from politics. It's one of those keep the matches away from children situations. I love irony as well. Al Gore got some his palms greased by crude oil money.

PS

Source of delicous dirt: http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybel...nergy-fiascos/

PPS
Gore has the reverse Midas touch. Everything he touches turns to shit.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

1. There is no conspiracy. Fast and Furious demonstrated what a bunch of keystone cops/clowns inhabit the BAT Fucker agency.
2. Why does this matter? It is the selfsame agency that would enforce any new gun laws.

It does not matter, because just because some mistakes were made, does not mean that gun laws cannot be enforced properly.

3. Well, since you caught me with 1 mess up wrt gun control discussions and claimed you were right, I may as well prove you right a whole bunch of times now.

Good, you'll prove me right by saying a bunch more wrong things.

OK, here's an article. Yes, you may feel free to call Forbes a right wing rag, but hell, this is one juicy article.

Well yes, it certainly is. The corporate wing of the right-wing, that's for sure. There is little or nothing in that article of any truth or relevance. Cap and trade would have worked, and will work in CA. Our #1 need is to invest in new clean energy. If some enterprises go bust, that's the American Way. So is government investing in new industries the American Way. It always has been.

Gray champion? I think he'd be a dollar-green champion or a crude-oil brown champion. I do hope all of his dick stepping keeps him away from politics. It's one of those keep the matches away from children situations. I love irony as well. Al Gore got some his palms greased by crude oil money.

Hardly. He's proven to be the greatest champion of the cause of dealing with climate change in the world. If he also makes money, I have no problem with that. I don't have a problem with people making money.

Gore has the reverse Midas touch. Everything he touches turns to shit.

His bank account seems to refute that allegation.

Of course, we have steered this thread seriously off course. How did that happen?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

It does not matter, because just because some mistakes were made, does not mean that gun laws cannot be enforced properly.

Some mistakes? Well, now , since no reforms of BAT Fucker agency have happened, then of course there will be new mistakes. Also, the more stuff BAT Fuckers gets involved with, there will be an increase in the number of mistakes.

Good, you'll prove me right by saying a bunch more wrong things.

Translation from Meecese to English , "Rags will point out stuff that Gives Eric cognitive dissonance fits and Eric has to deny these facts so his worldview doesn't get all messed up".

Well yes, it certainly is. The corporate wing of the right-wing, that's for sure. There is little or nothing in that article of any truth or relevance. Cap and trade would have worked, and will work in CA.

1. The article is true and relevant. There is such a thing as libel you know.
2. CA cap and trade words in part because CA imports a lot of electricity from elsewhere. If CA had its own power grid, Eric would be in the dark.

Our #1 need is to invest in new clean energy. If some enterprises go bust, that's the American Way. So is government investing in new industries the American Way. It always has been.

I agree with the above. That is why I think messing around with stupid stuff like gun control is a waste of time.

Hardly. He's proven to be the greatest champion of the cause of dealing with climate change in the world. If he also makes money, I have no problem with that. I don't have a problem with people making money.

He makes money for himself and loses it for others. Oh, and birds of a feather, flock together. I deem any association with Gold and Sacks to be suspect.

His bank account seems to refute that allegation.

True. Now I wonder if his tax rate is lower than mine. If so then the #2 priority would be to delete the current tax code, reboot, and have the x income = y tax paid system I've outlined.

x = income , regardless of source.
y = tax. tax = income * rate. The rate can be whatever California's rate + .2 (for income > $ 250,000). No deductions, no fudge factors, etc. The tax code would be just a few pages long.

Of course, we have steered this thread seriously off course. How did that happen?

I got you to state your #1 priority for one. Damn! I'm a sneaky honey badger. I caughts me a Meece mousey.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Some mistakes? Well, now , since no reforms of BAT Fucker agency have happened, then of course there will be new mistakes. Also, the more stuff BAT Fuckers gets involved with, there will be an increase in the number of mistakes.

I don't see how that follows. Mistakes are made; that does not mean that agency will make mistakes in the future. I don't know what you mean by no reforms. It was a one-time event, not a symptom of the agency. It was the wrong way to address the issue of gun running. If we had good gun laws, it would address the problem of Mexican drug lords importing weapons from the USA since they are not allowed to buy them in Mexico. Pass the right laws; then stupid policies won't have to substitute for them.

Translation from Meecese to English , "Rags will point out stuff that Gives Eric cognitive dissonance fits and Eric has to deny these facts so his worldview doesn't get all messed up".

Or, Eric will just calmly point out that what Rags has posted in this case is not factual.

2. CA cap and trade works in part because CA imports a lot of electricity from elsewhere. If CA had its own power grid, Eric would be in the dark.

Ca has lots of power sources and grids. CA cap and trade is just coming on-line.

I agree with the above. That is why I think messing around with stupid stuff like gun control is a waste of time.

We can disagree on that. I don't see any connection.

He makes money for himself and loses it for others. Oh, and birds of a feather, flock together. I deem any association with Gold and Sacks to be suspect.

Loses it for others? I don't see that. I didn't see any Gore association with Gold/Sacks. Did I miss something, or did they exaggerate?

True. Now I wonder if his tax rate is lower than mine. If so then the #2 priority would be to delete the current tax code, reboot, and have the x income = y tax paid system I've outlined.

x = income , regardless of source.
y = tax. tax = income * rate. The rate can be whatever California's rate + .2 (for income > $ 250,000). No deductions, no fudge factors, etc. The tax code would be just a few pages long.

Fine, but I favor substantial exemptions for low income people, more or less like we have now.

I got you to state your #1 priority for (once). Damn! I'm a sneaky honey badger. I caughts me a Meece mousey.

What is my #1 priority?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I don't see how that follows. Mistakes are made; that does not mean that agency will make mistakes in the future. I don't know what you mean by no reforms. It was a one-time event, not a symptom of the agency. It was the wrong way to address the issue of gun running. If we had good gun laws, it would address the problem of Mexican drug lords importing weapons from the USA since they are not allowed to buy them in Mexico. Pass the right laws; then stupid policies won't have to substitute for them.

Uh, Here's another example of bungling. . So, how many URL's from a Google search of "ATF bungled" would you like me to present to you?

1. Granted that's part of the problem with gun control The other problem is that certain parts of the country, aka "red states" want nothing to do with it. That's why I put it into "culture wars".

Or, Eric will just calmly point out that what Rags has posted in this case is not factual.

I think it's the opposite of course, silly me!

Ca has lots of power sources and grids. CA cap and trade is just coming on-line.

... [ grids which fall short of power demand.] [CA cap... which Rags wonders if some big bank or something is mooching off of.]

We can disagree on that. I don't see any connection.

OK by me.


Loses it for others? I don't see that. I didn't see any Gore association with Gold/Sacks. Did I miss something, or did they exaggerate?
Here you go. This site is about as neutral wrt politics as they come. It's an investment site which just describes the investment, who runs it, and performance. Attention, playwrite, this site is for you as well.

Fine, but I favor substantial exemptions for low income people, more or less like we have now.

That's too complicated. Just set the lowest bracket to 0 for whatever amount the exemptions are.

What is my #1 priority?

You said carbon emissions and I agreed.
#2 = tax reform.
#3 = infrastructure. Now on this, I'll grant you, Oklahoma's super majority Republicans are stuck on stupid.
Their #1 priority is chucking the income tax (5.25% oh my, how awful) and not fixing the 2nd worst bridges in the whole country. There is also no rail service in the northwest 1/2 of Oklahoma either.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Uh, Here's another example of bungling. . So, how many URL's from a Google search of "ATF bungled" would you like me to present to you?

Well then let's have the FBI enforce gun laws.

1. Granted that's part of the problem with gun control The other problem is that certain parts of the country, aka "red states" want nothing to do with it. That's why I put it into "culture wars".

No, that doesn't work. all issues are regional. Red states don't want anything to do with anything else the blue states want either.

Loses it for others? I don't see that. I didn't see any Gore association with Gold/Sacks. Did I miss something, or did they exaggerate?
Here you go. This site is about as neutral wrt politics as they come. It's an investment site which just describes the investment, who runs it, and performance. Attention, playwrite, this site is for you as well.

"Generation Global Equity Fund has $6 Billion in assets under management in early 2011 and is said to return more than 50% during the 12 months ending in March 2010." Don't sound like losing it to me.

That's too complicated. Just set the lowest bracket to 0 for whatever amount the exemptions are.

You mean 0 is the tax rate?

Making taxes simple sounds good, but it never lasts, because politicians would rather give away tax breaks to encourage what they want, rather than ask the people to pay for it.

The tax system is pretty good; there are not that many bad loopholes. The rates just need to go up more, especially on the wealthy. We Americans are not covering our government expenses. The Clinton era rates were fine. But taxing investment income (non-wage/salary income) the same as wages and salaries seems fair, although OTOH people say it discourages investment and taxes the reward for earning money. But at least, I think social security and medicare taxes should apply to them.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Well then let's have the FBI enforce gun laws.

1. Good start.
2. Are you willing to play Let's Make a Deal With Rags?

No, that doesn't work. all issues are regional. Red states don't want anything to do with anything else the blue states want either.

Anything? Does that include military bases? (Some are designated as cruft for Rags.)

"Generation Global Equity Fund has $6 Billion in assets under management in early 2011 and is said to return more than 50% during the 12 months ending in March 2010." Don't sound like losing it to me.

That link was in reference to the Al Gore/Gold and Sacks connection. The mutual fund made money, but the things that Al Gore did himself on the 2012 IPO was a bomb. Look for the post where I wrote stuff in big red letters. I did that to make it easy for folks to reference.

You mean 0 is the tax rate?

Yes.
A sample tax table. (I picked $15,000 since that approximates a yearly salary @ minimum wage) I'm OK if you tack on a bit more for 2-3 kids, but that's it. There are people I work with who have too many kids (5,11). I don't want to subsidize folks who go off and pop out crazy stuff like 11 kids!
0-$15,000 : tax = 0
$15,000 - $25,000 : tax = 3% (x - $15,000)
$25,000- $ 35,000 : tax = $300 + 5%(x-$25,000)
...

Making taxes simple sounds good, but it never lasts, because politicians would rather give away tax breaks to encourage what they want, rather than ask the people to pay for it.

"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Ratt"
Hey, man, if you can go idealistic and stuff, so can I. I mean really. If some politician whores themselves to assorted special interests, boot their sorry asses out.

The tax system is pretty good; there are not that many bad loopholes. The rates just need to go up more, especially on the wealthy.

No it isn't. The tax code is thousands of pages long. If all of this cruft is replaced with a few pages of code, how many loopholes are ne'er do wells going to find? I doubt very many. GE found enough loopholes in that cruft to pay 0 tax. I don't fault GE, since what they did was legal. I do fault the laws that enabled this.

We Americans are not covering our government expenses. The Clinton era rates were fine. But taxing investment income (non-wage/salary income) the same as wages and salaries seems fair, although OTOH people say it discourages investment and taxes the reward for earning money. But at least, I think social security and medicare taxes should apply to them.

1. Only shills say investment money discourages investment. Now why can't us wage slaves invest in stuff? We can and do. The problem there is that Wall Street is broken. I'll tack that on as priority 4. If you want to do a proper cap/trade, you need clean markets instead of the corrupt mess we have now.
2. Now if we do cap/trade, use that money to shore up Social Security along with doing away with the cap. (The income tax rates would be set, taking cap/trade into account, so low /mid income folks don't get nailed. )
3. Medical: Yeah, single payer. Set Medicare age to 0, delete Medicare payroll tax, and replace with VAT.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

Anything? Does that include military bases? (Some are designated as cruft for Rags.)

It is quite clear that the South is militarist ("favors a muscular foreign policy" is one way I've heard it put) and the North is not so much. The blue states are very anti-war.

That link was in reference to the Al Gore/Gold and Sacks connection. The mutual fund made money, but the things that Al Gore did himself on the 2012 IPO was a bomb. Look for the post where I wrote stuff in big red letters. I did that to make it easy for folks to reference.

It's too hard to read that stuff. JDG'66 is on my ignore list partly because he posts things in color all the time; I'd rather not take the trouble to scroll past his long, stupid and ugly posts. But I guess I'll take your word for it for now.

Yes.
A sample tax table. (I picked $15,000 since that approximates a yearly salary @ minimum wage) I'm OK if you tack on a bit more for 2-3 kids, but that's it. There are people I work with who have too many kids (5,11). I don't want to subsidize folks who go off and pop out crazy stuff like 11 kids!
0-$15,000 : tax = 0
$15,000 - $25,000 : tax = 3% (x - $15,000)
$25,000- $ 35,000 : tax = $300 + 5%(x-$25,000)

Makes sense to me.

"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber
Hey, man, if you can go idealistic and stuff, so can I. I mean really. If some politician whores themselves to assorted special interests, boot their sorry asses out.


No it isn't. The tax code is thousands of pages long. If all of this cruft is replaced with a few pages of code, how many loopholes are ne'er do wells going to find? I doubt very many. GE found enough loopholes in that cruft to pay 0 tax. I don't fault GE, since what they did was legal. I do fault the laws that enabled this.

Well I agree there. I just myself don't know what the loopholes are. For small companies like mine, I couldn't see any when I filed a corporate tax form. For big corporations, it could be a lot more complicated.

1. Only shills say investment money discourages investment. Now why can't us wage slaves invest in stuff? We can and do. The problem there is that Wall Street is broken. I'll tack that on as priority 4. If you want to do a proper cap/trade, you need clean markets instead of the corrupt mess we have now.

Yes, it is a mess.

2. Now if we do cap/trade, use that money to shore up Social Security along with doing away with the cap.

No, that's not part of cap and trade. The credits are shuffled between companies.

3. Medical: Yeah, single payer. Set Medicare age to 0, delete Medicare payroll tax, and replace with VAT.

I agree with part 1. VAT discourages the people from buying things. We still need that. Pay for medicare by paying for it. Raise the medicare tax.

We do have a wish list thread. I think you already posted your wishes there. But whatever, man

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

It is quite clear that the South is militarist ("favors a muscular foreign policy" is one way I've heard it put) and the North is not so much. The blue states are very anti-war.

1. Well, there's your entry point my friend. Red states also have this anti tax thing going. Now, just find cruft in the military budget, overruns anyone? That's wasted tax money! If you combine that with anti-tax sentiment, you'll get a nice case of cognitive dissonance. Capice?

It's too hard to read that stuff. JDG'66 is on my ignore list partly because he posts things in color all the time; I'd rather not take the trouble to scroll past his long, stupid and ugly posts. But I guess I'll take your word for it for now.

It's only 1 sentence. I don't color huge posts like JDG'66.

Well I agree there. I just myself don't know what the loopholes are. For small companies like mine, I couldn't see any when I filed a corporate tax form. For big corporations, it could be a lot more complicated.

Precisely. My guess is that you don't have an army of tax attorneys who can scan the thousands of pages of cruft to find those elusive loopholes. The corporate tax code needs decrufting as well. I'd delete interest paid for stuff like leveraged buyouts, executive compensation, board member compensation, stock buybacks, etc. Now, the trick and hard part comes when we start considering R&D spending/equipment upgrades. It's very easy to screw this up and make loopholes. So... Let's use a computer firewall rule of thumb. "Deny all, except that which is specifically allowed." R&D off the top of my head shall consist only of monies spent on product research (on the type of products a corporate entity produces. ) "Development" = physical plant to produce products. Next would be wages paid minus executive pay as specified above.

No, that's not part of cap and trade. The credits are shuffled between companies.

Who gets the proceeds? I assume there is some market value. I know there are some "freebies" dished out, but others are paid for.

I agree with part 1. VAT discourages the people from buying things. We still need that. Pay for medicare by paying for it. Raise the medicare tax.

I prefer the VAT:
1. Medicare is regressive. That would also decrease spending as well.
2.Since we import a bunch of crap like Ishits, some of the VAT would get eaten by exporters. If Europe can get a VAT subsidy from exporters, it's only fair we get that gravy also.

We do have a wish list thread. I think you already posted your wishes there. But whatever, man

The stuff is a semi wish. Just think of it as a "this a platform of stuff I'd be campaigning on if I were a politician". It's a wish since I'm an introvert and all of that glad handing it takes to win an office would drive me nuts.

Arm the students:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...ccurrence?lite

That should end well.

More responsible gun use:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...dog-feces?lite

For better or worse, Bill Strauss told me a number of years ago that Al Gore was one of the reviewers of the draft of "Generations". So at least 20 years ago, Gore was pretty immersed in the Theory. FWIW.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

1. Well, there's your entry point my friend. Red states also have this anti tax thing going. Now, just find cruft in the military budget, overruns anyone? That's wasted tax money! If you combine that with anti-tax sentiment, you'll get a nice case of cognitive dissonance. Capice?

I don't think cognition is a trait that is very common in those parts. If it is traditional and anti-liberal, predominant opinion in the South supports it automatically. So, the military, traditional religion and morality, low taxes and free enterprise/no social government, lousy diets and lifestyles, and gun culture and use; all fit that bill very nicely.

It's only 1 sentence. I don't color huge posts like JDG'66.

Thankfully. But I didn't catch any connection to Al Gore in those words. Are you saying somehow Al Gore got people to invest in failed companies? Well, most venture capitalists invest in failed companies. If there's a few successes, the investers make lots of money.

Precisely. My guess is that you don't have an army of tax attorneys who can scan the thousands of pages of cruft to find those elusive loopholes. The corporate tax code needs decrufting as well. I'd delete interest paid for stuff like leveraged buyouts, executive compensation, board member compensation, stock buybacks, etc. Now, the trick and hard part comes when we start considering R&D spending/equipment upgrades. It's very easy to screw this up and make loopholes. So... Let's use a computer firewall rule of thumb. "Deny all, except that which is specifically allowed." R&D off the top of my head shall consist only of monies spent on product research (on the type of products a corporate entity produces. ) "Development" = physical plant to produce products. Next would be wages paid minus executive pay as specified above.

Sounds like a good start. I don't know what all the loopholes are, I guess. I just filled out a simple form, and there were no loopholes there. And I've not read or heard what they all are on the news. It is a hidden racket, perhaps.

Who gets the proceeds? I assume there is some market value. I know there are some "freebies" dished out, but others are paid for.

It's mostly trading credits; one company cleans up, so it gets some money from another company which doesn't. And the cap gradually lowers on all of them. But the state gets some money I think; I don't remember why.

I prefer the VAT:
1. Medicare is regressive. That would also decrease spending as well.
2.Since we import a bunch of crap like Ishits, some of the VAT would get eaten by exporters. If Europe can get a VAT subsidy from exporters, it's only fair we get that gravy also.

I don't know what your sentence #2 means, or what Ishits are. But as for #1, I think it's fair to pay directly for the services we get. If we had an eligibility age of 0, medicare would cover mostly healthy people, and I think it would cost a lot less than the typical private personal or employee insurance plan. Obamacare is less regressive, since poor people get subsidies and Medicaid gets support; maybe that could be converted to a more progressive medicare tax.