@ Eric, that was in the capital city, which anyone with any sense fled from that cesspool years ago. And Thank God I don't live in California.

Originally Posted by Danilynn

Pbrower, with all due respect, the media coverage I have seen of cop behavior in just the last 2 years has caused me to lose all respect for them.

Self-defense is itself often extremely violent no matter how excusable and necessary it is. We hear about people being gunned down by the police in the perception of danger. If the cops are going into a drug den they will have their weapons drawn. Remember that any confrontation between drug traffickers and drug traffickers implies a stark change in the future of the persons to be arrested. They are going from a perverse sort of American Dream (upper-middle-class earnings from an activity that ruins their customers) to the austere environment of a prison. They get to see such basketball games as they are allowed to see on "Correctional Cable" on a small-screen TV that someone cast off for a flat-screen HDTV instead of in person with $100-a-seat tickets. Someone else gets to decide what they wear and what is for dinner, and that is how things will be for a long time.

Drug traffickers could get their children to pull guns on the cops. They are that ruthless.

...Police shootings make the news. I remember that in Dallas about twenty-five years ago (it was extremely crime-ridden) murders in armed robberies no longer made the local TV news. But shootings involving the police, whether as victims or as shooters, made the news. The killing of a cop by gunfire is usually murder. The killing by a cop was usually of someone either a raging drunk (combine anger and drunkenness, as is commonly the case in a family argument that gets the attention of police) or someone who was going to prison for a very long time if he were adjudicated guilty of other charges.

That in and of itself is extremely hard for me to reconcile, my father and uncle were city beat cops for most and all of their lives respectively.

And that makes a huge difference. The cop on the beat in a certain area in a big city knew that if there were a few black men driving nearly-new Cadillac or Lincoln vehicles... which one is the physician and which ones are gangsters. The beat cop generally knew who was trustworthy and who wasn't. The more recent cops now are as mobile as a police car can be, but they are unable to make presence. The beat cop was 'just another workingman' except for having a badge and a nightstick. (A cop's flashlight now takes much of that function, and it is a nasty weapon). He was there to break up a bar-room brawl and pick up reeling drunks for the protection of the drunks who might otherwise wander into a street and get killed.

But because of them I know gun safety taught to me at a very early age. Service revolvers were common in my childhood home. I grew up around guns and the uncertainty of if my daddy would come home from work.

Gun safety includes the clear indication to children to stay away from any loose firearm and to use them, if at all, only in the presence of an adult, as for hunting or target-shooting. Gun safety includes the assumption that all firearms are to be understood to be loaded, and that they are to be locked up -- and that the worst is assumed with the theft of any firearm.

So saying I do not trust cops now is a hard thing to say. But I do not. I'll take my chances defending my own home and life. Should or if the need ever arise that I have to call 911, it will be after I get done defending my own life and not before, and most likely there would not be need for anything more than a coroner.

The cops now have one big advantage -- bullet-proof chest armor. Someone who pulls a gun on a cop must aim at the cop's head, which gives a cop more time in which to deliver a fatal shot to the crook (and it is usually a crook) who points a gun at a cop. Cops can make a mistake, and they can make mistaken arrests due to faulty identification. Chicago cops once came close to arresting my brother because he looked much like an infamous drug trafficker active in Florida who made occasional trips to Chicago. He explained that he had just picked up his girlfriend at the airport that afternoon and that he, his girlfriend, and I were going to a Cubs game the next day and were headed for Isle Royale National Park. Soon after he opened the trunk and exposed copious camping gear and no weapons or drugs, my brother was told that he was at a hotel that low-life creeps frequent. But all in all, if it was a mistake to pull a gun on a cop and kill him and after a few days on the lam one gets arrested and eventually went to the electric chair for Murder One, pulling a gun ensures that one either delivers a non-lethal injury to the chest and the cop delivers a lethal shot to the shooter's chest -- or that the shooter takes a couple seconds more and tries to shoot at the cop's head or neck and the cop delivers a lethal shot before the crook can fire the shot. The police really are more dangerous than they used to be -- paradoxically because of bullet-proof vests.

I am satisfied that if I am arrested in error that the legal system will sort it out, and that I will leave jail little the worse for wear. But I am not going to resist even a mistaken arrest. An arrest made in error but good faith is still a lawful arrest, and even thirty days in jail for resisting arrest isn't worth it.

I have all my permits in place for conceal carry and my state recently went open carry. I do whenever possible.

Without 'concealed carry' one does not really have a right to bear a handgun.

My oldest daughter got in trouble back before her last hospitalization with her mental illness, we had to go to court over it.
The day of the hearing, was the day before I had emergency surgery. I was sick and throwing up, I knelt down on the floor in the hallway of chancery court to keep from passing out. The cops treated me like a criminal, even though I was there as the guardian/parent of an accused for a commitment hearing. The cop told me to stand, I tried and fell back against the wall and slid to the floor. He manhandled me to my feet and threatened me with arrest because he told me to be "dope-sick" somewhere else and I could "come down from whatever fucking shit I was on in the county jail" and would get to do it there if I did not stand up "right fucking now bitch". Those are all direct quotes.

Horrible -- but I can understand why the cops thought you were trouble. Vomiting in a public place is rare and can usually be understood as a disrespectful act. Cops being what they are, they assumed that you were either drunk or on drugs, and they despise drunks and druggies. Other medical conditions can resemble "dope-sick", including reactions to prescription medicine (much of which is literal dope).

Never once was I asked as I tried to get up and stand without fainting if I was ok. Not once.

I'm not a cop. But I figure that apologies were in order, and if I were the chief of police I would order the cop to make a formal apology.

So I think the caliber of cops we have now is somewhere between pond scum and jack booted thugs. I'll take my chances with the non badged out thugs rather than the ones that can shoot 13 year old kids dead and unarmed mentally ill mothers in DC dead with no repercussions.

Many cops are cops for all the wrong reasons, people more intent on abusing people in the assertion of their personal authority instead of serving humanity as a whole. I'd like to see cops redevelop the old 'beat cop' ethos. I want the cops to intervene in the lives of juvenile delinquents. I want them to pick up reeling drunks and strung-out druggies for the safety of everyone. That said, police is in some ways more dangerous than it used to be. The guns of contemporary criminals are deadlier, and some of the crooks are much more ruthless than they used to be. Our economy is now so fcuked up that it pushes much of the entrepreneurial tendency essential for a well-functioning capitalist order into overt criminality. Remember: we no longer have a competitive capitalist system; we now have a bureaucratic-capitalist order with the worst features of plutocracy and socialism in which inequality intensifies and elites impose poverty on all but a few non-insiders. Feudal inequality without social justice hardly serves most of humanity.

But cops can make faulty (if excusable) errors. There are some very realistic toys that resemble AR-15s and AK-47s. I would not let a child have one of those.

As for mental illness -- we could hardly do worse than we now do. Our threadbare mental health system has been the easiest area to subject to budget cuts. The mentally ill now get the attention of the criminal-justice system. The worst place for a mentally-ill person who does a crime like shoplifting just to survive is the penal system. But that is a very different story.

Originally Posted by Danilynn

@ Eric, that was in the capital city, which anyone with any sense fled from that cesspool years ago. And Thank God I don't live in California.

You might find some of our red-voting agricultural and mountain counties tolerable.

Although, if you don't like Mexicans, some of those might not be your cup of tea either. (disclaimer: I'm not saying what your cup of tea is, that's up to you)

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

The cops now have one big advantage -- bullet-proof chest armor. Someone who pulls a gun on a cop must aim at the cop's head, which gives a cop more time in which to deliver a fatal shot to the crook (and it is usually a crook) who points a gun at a cop. Cops can make a mistake, and they can make mistaken arrests due to faulty identification. Chicago cops once came close to arresting my brother because he looked much like an infamous drug trafficker active in Florida who made occasional trips to Chicago. He explained that he had just picked up his girlfriend at the airport that afternoon and that he, his girlfriend, and I were going to a Cubs game the next day and were headed for Isle Royale National Park. Soon after he opened the trunk and exposed copious camping gear and no weapons or drugs, my brother was told that he was at a hotel that low-life creeps frequent. But all in all, if it was a mistake to pull a gun on a cop and kill him and after a few days on the lam one gets arrested and eventually went to the electric chair for Murder One, pulling a gun ensures that one either delivers a non-lethal injury to the chest and the cop delivers a lethal shot to the shooter's chest -- or that the shooter takes a couple seconds more and tries to shoot at the cop's head or neck and the cop delivers a lethal shot before the crook can fire the shot. The police really are more dangerous than they used to be -- paradoxically because of bullet-proof vests.

Heh, you don't realize that (in all but a single state) civilians can buy body armor do you? Hate to burst your bubble but civilians can purchase everything from kevlar vests to steel and SAPI plates (anything up to LevelIV). Police don't actually have too many "advantages" outside of surprise (breaking into homes without warning) and simple numbers. I suggest you take a wander down to any location or event with a large number of armed people. You usually won't see police anywhere near the place.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Without 'concealed carry' one does not really have a right to bear a handgun.

Apparently you don't understand the meaning of open-carry, surprising since the term is pretty much self-explanatory. For example, open carry looks like this. Please note that in this video the police in this instance are able to refrain from murdering a peaceful adult holding a real and loaded gun (as opposed to police murdering a child carrying a toy).

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Or that anyone would any sense would say.

Thank goodness I don't live in Mississippi. It sounds like a jungle.

Correction: Swamp.

http://www.wmctv.com/story/23780840/...ton-naval-base

MILLINGTON, TN - (WMC-TV) - A Tennessee National Guard employee remains in custody after reportedly shooting his commanding officers at the National Guard Armory in Millington Thursday.

FBI officials searched the Cordova home of the suspected National Guard Armory shooter later in the evening. Neighbors say the home belongs to Sergeant First Class Amos Patton.
Patton served as a recruiter for the Army National Guard for 14 years. Before the shooting, Patton's bosses had come to town to talk with him about administrative policies and procedures and to relieve him from duty because of "misconduct."
According to the FBI, Patton went to his car in the midst of his meeting and retrieved government-issued gear to return it. When he came back to the meeting he had a fanny pack, which he previously did not have.
An Action News 5 reliable source says he took a semi-automatic 380 pistol out. The guardsmen shouted "gun." Our source says Patton emptied his weapon and fired seven to 10 shots at his commanding officers. The officers jumped on Patton and wrestled him while managing to keep the gun down.
The gun fired at Maj. Jeff Crawford striking him in the thigh; he has an entrance and exit wound. A bullet hit Sgt. Maj. Ricky R. McKenzie in the foot. Lt. Col Hunter was grazed by a bullet right below the knee, according to the National Guard. All victims were sent to the Regional Medical Center (The MED) to be treated for their injuries, but they have since been released.
Patton was "taken down" by a fellow guardsman after he emptied his weapon and attempted to run.
"I want to send out my sincere concern to the families of the two soldiers, guardsmen, that we had injured," said Major General Max Haston, Tennessee National Guard. "We hope that the two victims will soon be recovered and soon be back to work."
Major General Haston added that the two people who were shot were seasoned recruiters, headquartered out of Jackson, Tennessee.
According to Haston, one of the victims served in Iraq in 2005. He believes the other may have served in Afghanistan.
"I know both of the individuals who was injured, I know that the Major and I were in Iraq together in 2005," he explained.
Maj. Gen. Haston said that everyone on the scene at the time of the shooting responded according to protocol. The shooting happened at the National Guard Armory, which is the non-secured part of the base but is still on navy property.
"I'm sure there could have been more injury if they hadn't taken him in custody or gotten him restrained," said Millington police chief Stanback.
Police responded in a matter of seconds after a call was received around 12:45 p.m.
"The community here responded outstanding," he said. "It amazed me. They told me the timeliness of the response. The citizens in the community here should be very proud of that."
Despite the response, Haston admitted that it scares him to death that something like this can happen.
"It concerns me today what's happened all over the world, Washington D.C., that Washington Naval Yard, you never think something like this will happen on your watch, in good ol' Tennessee here," he said. "But it did happen."
Officials temporarily enforced a lockdown at the Millington Navy base as well as Millington Elementary and a golf course, which are both nearby the Naval Support Activity Mid-South installation.
Police say Patton did not speak and seemed to be in a daze while he was transported to the Millington jail, where he was questioned by the FBI.
Neighbors in Patton's Cordova community say they are shocked.
"He was very nice. Introduced himself. Asked if we ever needed anything. Came over. Wife the same thing," said a neighbor who did not want to be identified.

That was really uncalled for. I am sure though you live someplace with flaws and crap too. Please refrain from calling my home a swamp.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...c-manhunt?lite

Authorities in Texas have captured a suspect in a string of gruesome late night shootings in a town just 30 miles east of Dallas that left at least five people dead and set off a dramatic manhunt.
Charles Brownlow, 36, was apprehended by Terrell, Texas police officers around 1:30 a.m. Tuesday, after allegedly slaying his mother, aunt and three other people, according to NBC Dallas Fort-Worth.
“We’re all in a state of shock,” Terrell Police Chief Jody Lay told reporters, according to the Dallas Morning News. “You have a tendency to think, ‘How can that happen here?’ This is going to have a really big impact on us.”

***
The shooting spree and manhunt in Kaufman County come nearly half a year after District Attorney Mike McLelland and his wife, Cynthia Woodward McLelland, as well as Assistant District Attorney Mark Hasse were slain.
"We've had a tough year here in Kaufman County and this makes it a little bit tougher, but we're going to get through it," Lay told the Dallas Morning News. "We're resilient, we're going to rise above it."

http://news.yahoo.com/evacuation-la-...7440.html?vp=1 shooting at LAX

Originally Posted by Danilynn

http://news.yahoo.com/evacuation-la-...7440.html?vp=1 shooting at LAX

I've traveled the world and "traveled" a few different social clusters in various places. There are people who started out with legitimate suspicions of government power, corporate-government cartels, and the like. Unfortunately, during especially the late 20th Century, some of them went around a bad bend, ending up as revolutionaries of a sort. Some are part of the so called "Militia Movement" and others are more in the lone wolf tradition. What a fertile field some of these folks are to entities who wish to see the fall of the US.

If I were in charge of overseas operations of the GRU/SVR, the ErBu or for that matter Al Qaida, I would certainly be doing my level best to recruit (especially using False Flag methods) these sorts of revolutionaries. They are in a way far more dangerous than the Leftist variety, as many times they are adept with weapons and have a martial orientation. And what better way to undermine the US and the West. Anti Western fiends recruiting would be "Patriots" who end up destroying what they actually love.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/05/us/new...html?hpt=hp_t1

(CNN) -- A gunman who opened fire at a New Jersey mall Monday night later holed up in a back room and shot himself in the head, authorities say.

No one else was injured in the mall shooting.

Richard Shoop's body was found at 3:20 a.m. Tuesday in an obscure part of Westfield Garden State Plaza mall, hours after he fired at least six bullets without striking anyone in the massive shopping center.

He acted alone, authorities say.

Guns Keep homes safe:

http://www.khou.com/news/local/2-dea...231345881.html

Originally Posted by Bad Dog

Guns Keep homes safe:

http://www.khou.com/news/local/2-dea...231345881.html

Indeed they do. They also help with the rescue of kidnapped loved ones while the police are off doing other things.

No, as any Second Amendment advocate will tell you, guns don't keep people safe, people keep people safe.

Speaking of keeping people safe:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...rport-security

A Texas Republican lawmaker was charged with a felony after he allegedly tried to take a gun through security earlier this month at an airport in Austin, according to multiple reports.

Authorities said Texas state Rep. Drew Darby (R) tried to take a .38 caliber Ruger pistol with six rounds of ammunition through security at the Austin-Bergstrom International Airport, according to the Austin American-Statesman newspaper.


When the gun was spotted by security, Darby reportedly told an an officer it was his, that he had a concealed pistol license and had forgotten it was in his bag.


The paper reported he was booked at the Travis County Jail on Nov. 14. He was released a few hours later on a $5,000 bond.

Darby later released a statment saying regretted the incident, according to the Associated Press.

That Pennsylvania sheriff just wants some friends:

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...on_militi.html

Do you have $25, clean urine and a razor?


Then you can apply to join soon-to-be-former Gilberton Police Chief Mark Kessler's newly formed militia.


But Mark Kessler wants to make one thing clear about his group: At no time will the III% try to topple the government of the United States.

Kessler – in the midst of a termination hearing as police Chief of Gilberton Borough in Schuylkill County -- is recruiting men and women to spend one weekend a month training to shoot, perform first aid and survive out of doors. Militia members will be expected carry a rifle and sidearm and be cleaned shaven, according to the guidelines posted on Kessler's website.


If you're thinking of signing up for the III% – named for the 3 percent of the colonists who took up arms against the British during the revolution – you better be loyal to Uncle Sam.


From the guidelines: "anyone who talks of over throwing THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATED WILL BE BANNED AND REPORTED TO APPROPRIATE AUTHORITIES, WE ARE NOT PART OF ANY INSURECTION MOVEMENT.
WE ARE NOT ANTI GOVERNMENT, WE ARE TRUE BELIVERS IN WHAT OUR FOUNDING FATHER CREATED!"


Kessler will concede that some militia groups have attracted people spoiling for an armed revolution. He says he's not one of them, no matter what some might think after seeing the profanity-strewn anti-Obama videos that led Gilberton to suspend Kessler as chief of the borough's one-man department.


While he waits for his case to be resolved – his termination hearing was suspended after one of his supporters dropped a gun during the proceedings – Kessler wants to be a leader.

Google has a ribbon up today, to commemorate the killed at Sandy Hook Elementary.

Anybody else remember?

And, does anybody else now know, beyond the shadow of any POLITICAL doubt, that Americans are willing to let umpteen kids get slaughtered so that "responsible gun owners" won't bitch?

I'm commemorating the tragedy with this status post on facebook:


As April 15 approaches every year, pundits of various stripes trot out their pet "tax reform" proposals. Anticipating that the same "tradition" will now commence when it comes to "gun reform" proposals as the Sandy Hook school shooting anniversary henceforth looms, I'll get right out front and play that game. Here's my three point - or perhaps more accurately, two-and-a-half-point - plan:

1. Adoption, on a federal basis, of Florida's highly successful "10-20-Life" law - which mandates a 10-year prison sentence for merely bringing a gun to a crime scene, which becomes 20 years if the gun is actually discharged at said crime scene, and life in prison (with no parole possible for 25 years) if anyone is shot, fatally or otherwise.

2. A federal death penalty for using any "assault weapon" - using the standard, media definition of same - to kill two or more people concomitantly. This assures that the killer can be executed even if the state where the mass killing occurred does not maintain a death penalty (as the Dzhokhar Tsarnaev case is quite likely to turn out).

3. If - and I stress if - background checks are expanded, anyone who fails said background check is to be charged with attempted possession of a weapon, and face mandatory prison time upon conviction.

In short, come down hard on the guilty - and leave innocent, law-abiding citizens alone.

Originally Posted by Bad Dog

Google has a ribbon up today, to commemorate the killed at Sandy Hook Elementary.

Anybody else remember?

And, does anybody else now know, beyond the shadow of any POLITICAL doubt, that Americans are willing to let umpteen kids get slaughtered so that "responsible gun owners" won't bitch?

My brother-in-law helped produce this. It's called Evil Did Not Win. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUR7BFTphmI

Originally Posted by Bad Dog

Google has a ribbon up today, to commemorate the killed at Sandy Hook Elementary.

Anybody else remember?

And, does anybody else now know, beyond the shadow of any POLITICAL doubt, that Americans are willing to let umpteen kids get slaughtered so that "responsible gun owners" won't bitch?

Exactly. Americans are not willing to respond to Sandy Hook. Those 26 victims died in vain.

Originally Posted by '58 Flat

... and leave innocent, law-abiding citizens alone.[/COLOR]

The only trouble with this is that there are too many innocent, law-abiding IRRESPONSIBLE citizens.

Proper storage would have prevented Sandy Hook. Proper storage would prevent most kids from "accidental" shootings at homes. Proper storage would prevent many firearms from being stolen by folks who don't give a shit about violating laws. Proper storage might even prevent some suicides if the adult owner of the firearms did not disclose the combinations to others in the family/household.

Beyond that, I tend to agree with your Draconian punishments for gun-packing perps.

As a gun owner myself, I think I might even be in favor of outlawing ALL semi-auto weapons. This would mean that I'd have to trade in my Kimber .45 for a S&W .357 revolver, which really wouldn't bother me especially. There's really no special reason for semi-autos of any kind and all they do is permit a shooter to increase the number of vicitms a whole lot.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Exactly. Americans are not willing to respond to Sandy Hook. Those 26 victims died in vain.

Much so. We Americans got riled up about firearms, and then the gun fanatics wore us down.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Those 26 victims died in vain.

I'm bothered by this. "In vain" suggests to me some a priori sense of having volunteered for the job. These kids didn't "die in vain." They were murdered.

There was no greater cause for which they were sacrificed. For us to try to burden their poor souls with such, seems pretentious.

Now ... volunteer soldiers, marching off to their deaths for a cause that turns out to be bullshit ... THAT is dying in vain. Dying as an American soldier in the recent Iraq war, now that does seem to me that they died in vain.

It occurred to me that the real question isn't guns. Mass murderers can always find ways to run amok. The real question is - "Why are so many people running amok these days?"

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

It occurred to me that the real question isn't guns. Mass murderers can always find ways to run amok. The real question is - "Why are so many people running amok these days?"

Because they have so many guns to run amok with.