No, the children died in vain, because we have not learned the lesson posed by their deaths.Originally Posted by TnT
Yes, the soldiers who died in a bad cause also died in vain, but not if we learn the lesson and don't send our soldiers off to a bad cause. The soldiers of World War I, Vietnam and Iraq also died in vain, until we learn that lesson too.
When will we ever learn?
Last edited by Eric the Green; 12-16-2013 at 04:12 AM.
Pretentious.
"the lesson?" Given the plethora of insanities posed by humans, and the thousands of moving parts in our society that probably contributed to this mess, there is "the lesson?"
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."
It is obvious that America refuses to face up to gun control and other aspects of violence in our society. Newtown etc. is the direct result. Yes, the lesson.
And very shameful that we refuse to learn.
The question still is "Why are so many people going berserk?"
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."
"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.
There are theories (warning: book-length read).
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
Because America has always been crazy?
In a nation of nearly 320 million people, anomalies are more likely to occur - including anomalies that get willfully misrepresented as commonplace by demagogues. The right did this with the Terry Schiavo case, and Fox News recently did it with that slacker from California on food stamps they somehow found out about; and the left does it on a continuing basis on both the Second Amendment, and bringing up these unique "life of the mother" abortion scenarios involving married women, when you know and I know that more than 99.5% of all abortions in this country are had by women who are, 1) not married; and 2) there is no life or significant health issue involving either the would-be mother or the fetus; the former merely wants to immolate the latter because the latter is "inconvenient."
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.
Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!
OK, the inventor of the AK is dead. Start the flamewar over the best combat rifle. PRB has voted for the AK.
M14, perhaps? I think reliability counts. (the M16 had a bad reputation in Vietnam). As well as stopping power.
That's how it goes -- especially on crime, medical mishaps, and engineering disasters.
The Right made fools of itself with Terry Schiavo. Keep her alive (if in a persistent and inescapable vegetative state) so that some miracle can happen. Miracles seem to be a part of the thought-ways of the anti-rational Right.The right did this with the Terry Schiavo case, and Fox News recently did it with that slacker from California on food stamps they somehow found out about; and the left does it on a continuing basis on both the Second Amendment, and bringing up these unique "life of the mother" abortion scenarios involving married women, when you know and I know that more than 99.5% of all abortions in this country are had by women who are, 1) not married; and 2) there is no life or significant health issue involving either the would-be mother or the fetus; the former merely wants to immolate the latter because the latter is "inconvenient."
I forget what percentage of statistics are fabricated.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
But now there is a black Terry Schiavo:
http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/...n-brain/ncTNS/
Should be interesting to see how this plays out - and what pundits take which side.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.
Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!
It has an updated version, that has been performing well in Afghanistan. Good rifle, but heavy load. I think 6 mm or greater calibers are likely to appear, with characteristics like the M-1/14 Garand family, but of lesser weight and bulk.
One reason the family is so insistent, according to the newspaper story, is that the hospital let her bleed out and only kept bringing her bigger buckets to catch the blood. If this is true, no wonder they are very suspicious of the same hospital telling them their child is dead. They've already had proof the hospital didn't give a rat's rear for the life of their child.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."
"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.
The question still is, "why is America still berserk?"
Why does it still permit guns?
Why do screaming nuts still shout about "the Second Amendment?"
Why even after 20 children and 8 adults are gunned down for no reason, does America still permit guns?
This is truly berserk. And a number of people who post here refuse to face up to this insanity.
No-one needs a gun.
Gun control is not prohibited by the Second Amendment. Keeping guns away from certain people does not violate the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment does not guarantee the right to possess semi-automatic rifles, gun clips or even pistols.
A good guy with a gun often makes himself the first target of the bad guy with a gun.
I would be in favor of confiscation, but it is impractical and meets violence with violence.
Nowadays, few if any issues divide this nation more. Half the nation is sane, and the other half has a mental health problem. That mental health problem, is they think they need a gun, and think not having one is taking away their "freedom."
America has by far the most guns, and more murders, than other developed countries.
People in the NRA are certifiably insane.
Freedom is the most abused word in this country.
All kinds of misinformation and excuses are made to oppose even the most lenient gun regulations.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
I would guess things like this: http://jocosheriff.us/news/432-sched...ffice-services
Full story here: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...-guts-sheriff/
would be why we refuse to give up our guns. Because we all know that the criminals will be nice enough to only mug you while the police department is open.
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away, or in this Oregon town, hours or days away.
All those "illegal" weapons started life as legal ones. As the number of guns in circulation grows, this will only get worse. We already have nearly as many guns as people, and the buying of guns and especially ammo has reached insanity levels.
Sorry, but a hugely armed citizenry is not a safe and low-crime solution. The states with the highest gun ownership also have the highest rates of gun deaths. If you adjust for population density, that's more the case. One of the reasons big city mayors and city dwellers tend to favor gun control is the obvious case: there is no safe use of a gun in a city. But as long as they can be obtained easily in more rural areas, gun violence in cites will continue.
Eventually, this will grow into an urban versus rural issue, and urban areas are growing faster than rural ones. If people in rural areas will bend a bit, this will not be an issue. But there is no bend. It's no gun laws against the inevitable. Rural areas can't win this in the long run.
And to your examples: I'm sure there are a few cases where having a gun helped. There are also cases where it got someone killed. Unfortunately, we'll never know just how much of one there is versus the other, because the NRA has killed any chance of learning. We don't keep gun data, because it's forbidden. Doesn't that seem a bit strange if guns are net benefits?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
When the English passed the act outlawing the Scottish people to wear their kilts and tartans, the Scottish responded by hiding these things.
Do you really believe people who own guns and feel about their guns like the Scottish do about their tartan plaid, that we won't do the same?
When you outlaw the guns, then lots of otherwise law-abiding citizens will become outlaws.
Folks who think I shouldn't own a gun are part of the reason I am getting a compound bow for my birthday. And why my youngest daughter is signed up for a self-defense class starting in February.
And just to rattle the anti-gun crowd a bit more, my hubby and are shopping around for a Browning 1911-22 Compact Rimfire Pistol 10 round plus 1 capacity. Very nice weapon. Much more practical for daily carry. Oh, just to rattle you all some more, I am allowed, just like everyone else at my company, to be armed at work.
I got to use it last trip to the range, and it is a very smooth firing weapon.
Last edited by Danilynn; 12-27-2013 at 09:48 AM.
Kilts and tartans don't kill people. Laws against kilts and tartans were intended to destroy some of the identity of the Highland Scots.
Gun laws can be written to protect sport hunters and others who have legitimate reasons for owning firearms -- like 'bears nearby'.When you outlaw the guns, then lots of otherwise law-abiding citizens will become outlaws.
Legitimate sporting goods. Of course, dogs make good defenders just as a deterrent. Nobody wants to face a loving pet that can be as aggressive as a tiger if its loved ones are threatened. Nobody wants to have the brutal jaws of a dog driving sharp teeth into his flesh. Your coin collection, silver tea service, gun, and prescription painkillers just aren't worth it.Folks who think I shouldn't own a gun are part of the reason I am getting a compound bow for my birthday. And why my youngest daughter is signed up for a self-defense class starting in February.
Sport hunters are one thing. Dope dealers have guns for the worst possible reasons.And just to rattle the anti-gun crowd a bit more, my hubby and are shopping around for a Browning 1911-22 Compact Rimfire Pistol 10 round plus 1 capacity. Very nice weapon. Much more practical for daily carry. Oh, just to rattle you all some more, I am allowed, just like everyone else at my company, to be armed at work.
I got to use it last trip to the range, and it is a very smooth firing weapon.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Criminals do not obey any laws, so why should I have more imposed on me because they don't obey the ones already in place? Seems a bit illogical to impose more on folks who already abide by laws, when those who do not are not going to respect the new laws any more than the laws already on the books.
But they do fear Messrs. R. Ottweiler and D. O. Berman, who have superb sensory perception and can literally "take a bite out of crime".
Do you really want to sleep with a loaded firearm in your bed? That is just about what you need to have an effective defense against an armed intruder. Maybe we need to do something about the proliferation of firearms -- and the criminal element.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 12-27-2013 at 07:43 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Now here's a state policy worthy of opposition:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-s...b_4496238.html
Without academic freedom, college education is nothing more than vocational training and State propaganda. Kansas this time.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
All police departments are open 24/7/365(366 in leap years), aren't they?
not in the one town listed in an article above.
from the article: The major crimes unit closed, dozens of prisoners were released from the county jail and the department reduced operations to Monday-Friday, eight hours a day.The Sheriff’s Office then issued a press release announcing their deputies would only be responding to what they deemed “life-threatening situations"
Not only did the Sheriff's Office narrow its scope to "life-threatening" situations, but it even encouraged people who felt unsafe to relocate. “... the Sheriff's Office regretfully advises that, if you know you are in a potentially volatile situation (for example, you are a protected person in a restraining order that you believe the respondent may violate), you may want to consider relocating to an area with adequate law enforcement services"
Last edited by Danilynn; 12-27-2013 at 12:46 PM.
Gun control laws, at most, will inconvenience criminals but slightly. (While exacting a very high political cost for the Democrats). Danilynn, on the gun thread I pointed out a number of ways to circumvent gun control. I think this caused cognitive dissonance with a few Boomers posting to this forum. But eventually these same few went back to their previous rhetoric. Gun owners are dismissed as "gun nuts, so apparently circumvention can be ignored.
However, if "gun grabbers" could-somehow-get draconian gun control laws passed, their momentary satisfaction will likely turn to outrage as these laws prove to be ineffectual.
Last edited by TimWalker; 12-27-2013 at 04:21 PM.
There are other laws against possession of certain items, like explosives, that work well enough to keep many incidents with them happening. We don't live in Iraq. Juveniles can't drive cars, and every driver needs a license. Admittedly, it will take the consensus that does not exist today for "draconian" gun-grabbing laws to work. Meanwhile, gun control is not gun grabbing. Resistance to gun control is clearly insane. Some people should not have guns, and should have their guns grabbed away from them. None of this changes the fact that no-one needs a gun. Nor do the rantings of gun nuts like Danilynn change this fact. Half of America thinks it does need guns. Half of America is wrong.
