Originally Posted by TnT

Just my perspective on this ...

There appears to be a couple different kinds of gun-owners. There are those who actually use them for something ... hunting, law-enforcement, armored car guarding, etc.

Then there are those who appear to me to live in a constant state of panic about events which almost never happen. These folks practice a lot, leave a lot of shot-up garbage laying around out in the country, stock up with tens of thousands of rounds of ammo, and rave on about the 2nd amendment. Some fraction of these folks, at least here in NM, are greatly concerned about protecting themselves and their families from the lean, hungry, brown-skinned barbarians from Mexico, Central and South America.

Unlike gun owners who actually use their firearms for something, they find it necessary to own Bushmasters with huge magazines, almost to a man (or woman). The exception to this, in my mind, would be the law enforement officer who likely keeps a rifle in the trunk.

IMO, from a perspective of any meaningful gun regulation, that train left the station a long, long time ago. And it's not coming back.

Valid points. I learned to shoot when I was young, since I lived in a area that was more rural than urban. Our little city of 45,000 (much less than that now) nested in an area of farms and forest. Hunting was very popular, though not in my family. Nonetheless, I learned to shoot everything from 22s to12 gauge shotguns, and could actually score well in trap shooting ... but not with the 12 gauge.

Guns are not a problem per se. Some peopls with guns, on the other hand ...

Police violence in Albuquerque

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YofAjUe7rww

Check out the live helmet camera footage of this schizophrenic homeless guy being shot in the back by Albuquerque's finest.

Interestingly, there have been 22 people killed by APD gunfire in the last couple years, while exactly no police have been killed. I suppose that's a good thing. On the other hand, when they get to go up against a guy with a knife and they have guns, bullet-resistant vests, dogs, helicopters, etc., I'm guessing that they could perhaps dial back their willingness to kill, maybe just a little?

In training sessions, in which firefighters, medics and EMTs from our company, and police are all present, it always surprises us to learn that we are trained to de-escalate tricky situations, while the police are specifically trained to escalate. Our company actually has one paramedic who was arrested by APD for trying to protect her patient from a police officer.

Groundhog Day:

http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/...nshot-1.486352

I'm betting that up until he shot his farmhand, he was a "law-abiding gun owner." But wait, in our current societal mindset, he is STILL a "law-abiding gun owner." After all, it was "just an accident." And accidents will happen. No body's fault really.

Originally Posted by TnT

I'm betting that up until he shot his farmhand, he was a "law-abiding gun owner." But wait, in our current societal mindset, he is STILL a "law-abiding gun owner." After all, it was "just an accident." And accidents will happen. No body's fault really.

They sure do.

Well, the latest act of apparently senseless violence was in Las Vegas. One of the perps shouted "This is a revolution!" before they killed each other.

It seems entirely possible that the increased stress of modern civilization contributes to these incidents. I don't tend to count them as signs of an approaching violent 4T as I would if the perps were members of an organized violent and political organization with something resembling an agenda.

But it doesn't seem like much of a revolution to me.

Originally Posted by B Butler

Well, the latest act of apparently senseless violence was in Las Vegas. One of the perps shouted "This is a revolution!" before they killed each other.

It seems entirely possible that the increased stress of modern civilization contributes to these incidents. I don't tend to count them as signs of an approaching violent 4T as I would if the perps were members of an organized violent and political organization with something resembling an agenda.

But it doesn't seem like much of a revolution to me.

Bob, one of the situations in our state is the growing number of militia groups. They are mainly in the rural areas. A friend of mine has a son that belongs to one of these groups. He said that we would be amazed at the high powered guns and ammunition these people have. Now this friend has been to Iraq and other dangerous places, but indicated that those places scared him far less than what he saw on his son's property during the weekly target practices.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Bob, one of the situations in our state is the growing number of militia groups. They are mainly in the rural areas. A friend of mine has a son that belongs to one of these groups. He said that we would be amazed at the high powered guns and ammunition these people have. Now this friend has been to Iraq and other dangerous places, but indicated that those places scared him far less than what he saw on his son's property during the weekly target practices.

I don't doubt you. I've been assuming that the 'militia' groups haven't gone away since the Waco / OKC / Ruby Ridge spiral. I don't have a feel for just how many members such groups have, but assume they are absurdly well armed.

Now, if one of these groups tried pulling off something on the scale of the Harper's Ferry raid, if instead of committing suicide when the cops showed up they had a prepared battle plan, likely an ambush of cops expecting a lone nut scenario, if the media couldn't explain it away as a 'crazy lone nut', if the government in its infinite wisdom decided that in order to protect the public it had to disarm militia groups, then I'd come here to "The Spiral of Violence" thread and start waving very large storm warning flags. I don't doubt they have the numbers, weapons and tactical knowledge to pull it off.

That might start the spiral really going. This incident? I doubt it.

After both the OKC bombing and September 11th, both the Red and Blue leadership and rank and file rejected violence as a means of domestic policy change. This remains a strong part of the current culture and values. This isn't to say that this can't change. I just don't see it changing at a significant rate yet.

Also, how many media outlets, mainstream or otherwise, are hailing the gunmen as heroes? The Spiral of Rhetoric would have to precede and set the ground for the Spiral of Violence. Is that happening?

Alex Jones is nuts, though, for claiming that this latest shooting was staged by Harry Reid and "other conspirators."

Indeed, my take is the exact opposite: Every time one of these shootings occurs, it helps the Republicans - because after the left chimes in with its usual, tired old argument for dumping the Second Amendment, the resulting backlash not only keeps the conservative base energized, but turns off swing voters in key states - and even more so, key Congressional districts - who might otherwise be swayed by the talking points of Elizabeth Warren etc.

The passage of gun control laws would be a Pyrhhic victory-done at great political cost, with a thriving black market as the practical result.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

The passage of gun control laws would be a Pyrhhic victory-done at great political cost, with a thriving black market as the practical result.

Although I hate guns, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the most commonly offered gun control laws in the US are going to do jack shit. It may need to be all or nothing.

Originally Posted by '58 Flat

Alex Jones is nuts, though, for claiming that this latest shooting was staged by Harry Reid and "other conspirators."

Indeed, my take is the exact opposite: Every time one of these shootings occurs, it helps the Republicans - because after the left chimes in with its usual, tired old argument for dumping the Second Amendment, the resulting backlash not only keeps the conservative base energized, but turns off swing voters in key states - and even more so, key Congressional districts - who might otherwise be swayed by the talking points of Elizabeth Warren etc.

The key states are not affected; only the Appalachian and border states, which are not key states anymore. They are safely Republican.

Gun control has come close to passage under Obama. All it will take is a Democratic House, a Democratic president and a few more Senate votes. Each incident beings passage closer, and demographics make a progressive trend more likely in coming years (especially the 2020s) that would shift power to the left. We've had 3 more incidents in the past 2 weeks, and another call from an impassioned father who lost his son. A great guy was lost for no reason.

These incidents are so significant, because most murders are gang-related killings involving the factors of poverty and drugs. Random killing of upscale folks by nuts with guns is something different. It is very unpleasant for white middle-class folks who might have voted Republican before or opposed gun control before.

Such laws passing will certainly be combustible. Pyrhhic victory with political cost? Eventually there will be political costs on both sides, as anti-gun forces grow in strength. Obviously the NRA can't be under-estimated. My prediction of a more progressive trend in politics taking hold in the 2020s, will not be easily accepted by the Tea Party/Reaganoid types. Rebellion will seem like the only answer to them, and they could get the support of the oligarchs fighting to hold on to their wealth and priviledges.

This incident may not be an example of the actual counter-"revolution" that may be coming later this 4T, but I expect it is a sign of things to come. Their sentiments are exactly those from whom I expect a likely right-wing rebellion by the mid-2020s. There are lots of these nuts out there, and many more people with similar sympathies. The libertarian anti-gun, anti-tax fanatics and nuts are a growing breed. Most are not as violent and insane as these guys in Las Vegas. It will need to be a more-organized group, with less-random targets and methods, or they will have little support. Even the racist Nevada rancher that these guys defended said they were too radical.

But this incident shows that such libertarian fanatics are by no means confined to Generation X. The right-wing libertarian Xers (like Alex Jones) and a few similar Boomers (e.g. Limbaugh, Hannity) have a sway among some younger followers and converts, just as we might expect in a 4T scenario.

The rebellion will be defeated, and the gun laws will hold.