Originally Posted by The Rani

I doubt that humanity thinks about it that deeply. If they did, they would probably already know all the things about factory farming that Skabungus described in his post, and they wouldn't need government to fix the problem for them.

I know, playdude, I'm dissing humanity again. But in humanity's defense, hardly anyone who heard what Prop 2 was about thought it was a bad idea. Except for the occasional freak, like the kid who kept yelling at me that he keeps his pig in a cage. (I told a friend later that I should have asked him if it was easier to fuck it that way.) Most people just need the information to make the choices that they already know are right.

But Proposition 2 was still a government measure. Giving people the right information didn't stop the types of farming that P2 will ban (as of 2015), all it did was persuade the voters to pass the measure. Now it's on the books, and when the law takes effect farmers will be prohibited by law from those particular practices.

You'd have a better case if you'd talked to the farmers themselves and they'd said, "Oh, damn, I didn't realize all that. I guess I'd better change the way I do business." As it is, your efforts invoked government force -- through democratic action, which is the way it's supposed to work.

Originally Posted by The Rani

On the other hand, there are no loopholes when your neighbors come after you with tar and feathers because you have turned the river brown and oozing.

True. Of course, there are also no loopholes when they do the same thing because you look like a Middle Eastern terrorist.

I don't believe it's possible to do that. Case in point: we WERE discussing the matter of factory farming, which itself was a topic that arose due to its connection with disease outbreaks. You expressed a preference for mob action over law to deal with the problem, and I pointed out that the mob is not to be trusted.

What I shall do, instead, is simply to boycott this thread as far as engaging in discussion is concerned. If I find news items to share, I may post them here. Otherwise, au revoir.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Please stop ... everyone.

Or at least limit replies to the topic of the thread. (In other words, if anyone has any comments about government intervention as it relates to factory farming, I'll be glad to discuss it. Other than that aspect of "libertarianism," forget it.)

Thank you.

Are you dreaming of thread control? Of partisans not using threads to propagandize? Of talking issues rather than being dragged into the usual ruts?

Good luck. ™

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

Are you dreaming of thread control? Of partisans not using threads to propagandize? Of talking issues rather than being dragged into the usual ruts?

Good luck. ™

... and you're asking this of the Queen of Off Topic Commentary(TM). Give yourself another batch of Smilies

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

... and you're asking this of the Queen of Off Topic Commentary(TM). Give yourself another batch of Smilies

Alas, there is a limit of four smilies per post. I figure I should hold one slot in reserve. ™

The bulk of the outbreak early was definitely in Mexico. While they are saying 'swine flu,' to my knowledge they haven't found the bug in question among the pig population of Mexico yet.

However, matching up genetic sequencing, apparently the 'new' bug is very similar to one that jumped from pigs to humans at an 2007 Ohio county fair.

This doesn't mean anything in terms of how the virus will spread from here, but it might make the tracing back of the flu among the pig population interesting.

Originally Posted by playwrite

...The real question is why you are not over at Faux News helping them stir up fear about brown people slipping over the border to infect our women and children...

1) Hmmm... the first death in America was... a Mexican. Of course, I'm not sure of skin shade...

Maybe now we should tighten up the border, if not for the trivial reason that that's one of the primary legitimate functions of the US government as a matter of "general purpose"?

As far as I know, this one was legal, LOOKING FOR MEDICAL CARE. How many Illegals are infected? But I guess that doesn't matter, since illegals never think to look for free medical care at the expense of the US taxpayer. I guess we'll find out...

2) I can tell when Playwrite feels that he's been backed into a corner: PW starts sputtering about FOX News.

Damn immigrant, why didn't he just stay in Mexico to die next to the U.S. pig factory?

Yeah, uhhh... yeah

Originally Posted by The Rani

WHO to stop using term 'swine flu' to protect pigs

To protect pigs? I'm sure they will be most grateful to have their lives spared ... er, uh ... their executions postponed.

I think we might be just a little bit past the point of no return as far as getting everybody to forget the name "swine flu" and start calling it by the scientific strain name... But man, that's a lot of dead pigs over in Egypt!

Originally Posted by independent

Damn immigrant, why didn't he just stay in Mexico to die next to the U.S. pig factory?

Yeah, uhhh... yeah

-Of course.

Letting people into the USA who harbor a potentially fatal disease, and allowing them to spread it in this country, is a much better solution!

Originally Posted by stab1969

... But man, that's a lot of dead pigs over in Egypt!

The pigs ate garbage, and now that's out, so what about another alternative, like amoebic dysentary? Rotting garbage is no improvement.

Originally Posted by Skabungus

Who hates factory farming?

Joel Salatin, the father of Pigerator Pork and a living example of how low input, sustainable farming can become VERY profitable. I’ve read all his books and use many of his practices particularly his marketing strategies and farm/family finance system. Joel is a bible believing Christian, hardcore libertarian and straight talking businessman. Joel’s answer to any question about good meat production (two legged or four) begins with “good grass!”

Farmer John Peterson, subject of the film documentary film “the Real Dirt on Farmer John” An icon of eccentric lifestyles and successful artisan farmer this fellow is largely responsible for the rebirth of small scale farming near urban centers in the Midwest. He’s practices Biodynamic farming which flows out of the Rudolph Steiner school of esoteric thinking. His farm is a Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) project and serves families and individuals directly and in many cases, directly engages them in the planning, planting and production of the foodstuffs. Personally, I find Biodynamic practices to be a little bit wacked……but no more wacked than Joel Salatin’s Chritianity. My first introduction to dowsing came from a Biodynamic farmer named John Verronen, who introduced me to his brother, Christopher with whom I started a CSA in 1989. The CSA project transformed me from a suburbanite into a sustainable farmer in four months and I’ve never looked back. If I had to I’d classify all the Biodynamic folks as a weird crossing of Gnostic monk/anarchist/socialist/rural folk. They are weird by modern American social standards, but, they are successful farmers, good at business and certainly driven by a desire to improve the quality of life for society as a whole.

CSA’s have always fascinated me because I’ve never been able to decide if they’re socialist cooperatives or red blooded American small businesses. Nearly all I’ve seen exhibit a strong drive to improve the commonweal, yet they all see free enterprise as a sacred thing. Adam Smith, where he alive today, would certainly have a working share in a CSA, and would probably run to sit on the shareholder board! There is no better living example of free trade than the “trade table” at a CSA farm, or the market booth at a local farmer’s market.

So, based on my own experience I can say that without question, the opposition to factory farming is rampant on the far left, the far right and the broad middle ground. Opposition to factory farming seems to be based on common sense, concern for personal health and some modicum of respect for society at large. Most everyone you meet in the organics section of the supermarket, at a CSA workday, or on a sustainable farming web forum, will tell you that health and healthcare costs rank at the top of their reasons for eating the way they do. Most will tell you that the health of their children is the most important reason. “Let your food be your medicine and your medicine be your food” are words to live by. Putting an end to factory farming is a national healthcare issue. Swine flu is only a blip on the radar. Obesity, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc. bear a larger share of the justification for eliminating factory production of meats and vegetables.

--snip--

Next time you go to the supermarket and pick up that factory raised bacon to go with that perfect looking spinach salad (sprayed with aluminum oxide to keep it that way) just remember that it’s your choice. Take that 10% savings and sock it away for when you next go to the doctor.

Amen, Skabungus, and amen again. I'm not 100% local/sustainable/organic yet, but the oddest thing has happened since I moved to the People's Republic of Ann Arbor and changed my eating habits to 50-70% organic... Conventional food tastes odd. Too sugary. Too salty. Too... weird. I bought some conventional snacks last week (end of semester, fellowship running low). I've completely wasted my money. The Lay's Potato Chips I grew up with taste so salty that I can only eat maybe 2-3 at a time.

Even as a child, I didn't eat 100% conventional or fast food. My grandmother grew up on a trucking farm, as I've said, and grew everything under the sun on vacant lots on our block. Urban blight? What urban blight? I grew up in the Murder Capital of the country, but also grew up eating everything from pears to swiss chard to corn grown less than 60 yards from my house. (Best of all was cherry tomato season -- my sisters and I would play for a while, pick a few cherry tomatoes, eat 'em, and keep playing!) When I wanted to make green onion dip as a tween (admittedly, for those Lay's!), I'd run outside to the veggie garden, snip some green onion, run back in the house, and go for broke. Unlike most of my friends, we ate fast food very rarely -- something I corrected soon as I grew up! (More on that in a minute...)

The result? I'm an African American woman from the working class who is not obese. In fact, as a kid, I was teased for being so thin. Now, I realize that I was normal... my community was not.

When we grew up, my sisters and I rebelled. Our friends grew up on fast food and pizza; post-high school, we all lived on it. As a result, we've all had more health problems in adulthood than we could have imagined as kids. For instance, during the 2000-2001 school year, I did my own version of *Fast Food Nation* as a full-time teacher and grad student. I had McDonalds for lunch just about every workday from September until late January. Then, on the morning of January 26, 2001, I passed out in the first floor lobby of my apartment building. Missed work that morning, went to the doctor, got a bs diagnosis... then passed out again, this time on January 31st in front of my fifth grade class. I won't go into details about what had happened to my 23 year old GI tract from that stuff, but suffice it to say that I was hospitalized, then placed on mandatory bedrest for SIX long weeks. At the end of that ordeal, the doc told me I had asthma. (At age 23???)

I lived and learned. When I was still working in Detroit, I managed to have a diet that was 20-25% local/organic. Even that was not enough. I spent my 20s plagued with GI and respiratory issues. Moved to Ann Arbor... and got a roommate who was self-educated about this stuff. ONE MONTH after she moved in and I began eating organic (and now homemade) yogurt -- GI issues were gone.

This stuff is absolutely real, Skabungus. What's even more sinister is that conventional additives are addictive. My family can't eat my organic and non-conventional stuff at all, or they "doctor it up" -- they say it tastes horrible. Also, I had a recent chilling scare about a month ago, when I made homecooked food for a few grad students then headed to Iowa City for a consulting job. I made a peach cobbler out of all organic ingredients, delicious but GIANT -- my friends, roommate, and I only got through 2/3s of it before I had to skip town. When I arrived back home, I had a piece -- but the next day it was over. It had started to mold after only 5 days! They were right about no preservatives. But I thought about other cobblers that my grandmother, my sister, and I have made from scratch, but using all conventional foods and staples -- those last 2 weeks or more at room temperature! (A cake made from a mix will last all month! Store bought stuff is usually even worse... cookies and cakes that last for months... Hostess and Little Debbie for over a year!)

Give me my tinfoil hat now, because if my adult life's gastric experiences are any indication, someone really is trying to poison us via the international food supply. (As Roadbldr likes to say, "Soylent Green is people!") Every year, I try to do more local farmer's produce, only shop organic (thank goodness for Trader Joe's -- but TJs and Whole Foods are still pretty bad about the local/sustainable thing), and my roommate and I grow more and more of our own food on our little patio. And when I interview for academic jobs this fall, location is everything. I want my own little house with land enough for a full garden plot, and if there's one around, would love to join a CSA.

And yes, this has EVERYTHING to do with swine flu. I know someone will say it's not the corporations, it's subsistence farmers/farming in places like Mexico and China, but all the antibiotics and genetic modifications we're ingesting via conventional can't be good. It's throwing our immune systems out of whack (see growth in allergy rates). Even if swine flu isn't the next big pandemic, we're playing a scary game of roulette. I totally disagree with those who say we can't feed the world sustainably and healthily. I think those who say so have another, sinister agenda.

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

1) Hmmm... the first death in America was... a Mexican. Of course, I'm not sure of skin shade...

Maybe now we should tighten up the border, if not for the trivial reason that that's one of the primary legitimate functions of the US government as a matter of "general purpose"?

As far as I know, this one was legal, LOOKING FOR MEDICAL CARE. How many Illegals are infected? But I guess that doesn't matter, since illegals never think to look for free medical care at the expense of the US taxpayer. I guess we'll find out...

2) I can tell when Playwrite feels that he's been backed into a corner: PW starts sputtering about FOX News.

The first large group in the US to come down with the virsus were kids from a Catholic school here in NY returning from vacation in Mexico. I'm sure you're for banning all Catholics from returning to the US, but does that really go far enough? They are a tricky lot (a lot of them are of Irish descent, you know) and they propagate like rabbits. Don't you think we should just get rid of all of them?

Originally Posted by playwrite

The first large group in the US to come down with the virsus were kids from a Catholic school here in NY returning from vacation in Mexico. I'm sure you're for banning all Catholics from returning to the US, but does that really go far enough? They are a tricky lot (a lot of them are of Irish descent, you know) and they propagate like rabbits. Don't you think we should just get rid of all of them?

-Kids who were already going to a school (Catholic or otherwise) obviously BELONG in this country. The Mexican who died of the 'flu in Texas, OTOH, did not. Letting in said individual only allowed the disease to spread in this country.

DUH.

BTW, many kids who go to Catholic School aren't Catholic.

Originally Posted by The Rani

WHO to stop using term 'swine flu' to protect pigs

To protect pigs? I'm sure they will be most grateful to have their lives spared ... er, uh ... their executions postponed.

Why not tag virus mutations like we do with ours? Example
Human: TNF-308A
Virus H1-xxx(ATGC)/N1-xxx(ATGC) (Of course, there could be several, so just pick one that's part of the antigen shift.)

Originally Posted by The Rani

And they're probably not even eating them when they kill them. What a waste. The real irony is that the ones there are far more likely to be healthy than ours are.

I agree, and can you imagine the smell of all that burning lard in the air?! Im assuming they're burning the carcasses of course...

Originally Posted by The Rani

And they're probably not even eating them when they kill them. What a waste. The real irony is that the ones there are far more likely to be healthy than ours are.

-The last time I checked, Egypt was 10% Christian:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/eg.html#People

..although I think that info' might be a little dated (maybe 5% now). Most of that pork was probably for export. But since the pig farmers are Christian, and the government is mostly Muslim, well, it's no skin off their hide...

Originally Posted by stab1969

I agree, and can you imagine the smell of all that burning lard in the air?! Im assuming they're burning the carcasses of course...

-The lard will probably be over-powered by the smell of buring skin & excrement.

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

-The lard will probably be over-powered by the smell of buring skin & excrement.

I didnt consider the burning skin and excretement, but still, that stuff's gonna be sizzling in all that lard... sounds like some pretty scary pork rinds to me!

The NY Times is reporting that the high death rate in Mexico is in great part due to a health care system that avoids consulting with doctors save as a last resort. Home remedies, unprescribed antibiotics, vitamins, traditional medicine are tried first. Only when things get really bad will people spend money. This is not a good approach with this particular flu.

First Flu Death Provides Clues to Mexico Toll

I'll note that this bug is a respiratory bug. One is unlikely to catch it by eating well cooked meat. Thus, selling the Egyptian pigs for human consumption isn't that absurd on that level, though I wouldn't expect they would be contaminated by the bug in question, and a big slaughter like that would put a glut on the market.

The NY Time's dayly report. Swine Flu Continues to Spread — but Slowly For discussion purposes...

The Roman Catholic Church in New Zealand instructed priests Friday not to place communion wafers in worshippers’ mouths because of transmission risks, The Associated Press reported, and indigenous Maori were urged to stop using an ancient greeting that brings people nose-to-nose.

The W.H.O. announced on Friday that the worldwide total for confirmed cases of the virus had risen to 331 cases, from 257 the day before. But no new countries were added to a list released on Thursday — Mexico, the United States, Canada, Spain, Britain, Germany, New Zealand, Israel, Austria, the Netherlands and Switzerland.

We just go informed by our vet friend (who is working on getting the papers in order for Andi's cat to come back with us) that animals -- all animals -- from the USA are currently not allowed entry into the RF. Apparently it's somehow associated with the swine flu thing.

So it's not just the American government that is overreacting.

Originally Posted by jamesdglick

-Kids who were already going to a school (Catholic or otherwise) obviously BELONG in this country. The Mexican who died of the 'flu in Texas, OTOH, did not. Letting in said individual only allowed the disease to spread in this country.

DUH.

BTW, many kids who go to Catholic School aren't Catholic.

That is some weird logic that betrays something more, me thinks.

The Mexican 23-month old came in with his parents seeking specific medical help. The likelihood of that kid spreading the virsus while in the medical process would be orders less in magnitude than 50 kids coming back and attending their school.

One can only conclude that your ultimate motivation behind your reasoning is not of a public health nature; the only discernment seems to be about brown skin.

Politically (and probable in your own personal lives), you guys are your own worst enemies.

Source:


http://www.in-pharmatechnologist.com...plant-underway



Novartis last week began construction of a major new flu vaccine manufacturing facility in North Carolina, the very first cell culture-derived flu vaccine plant in the United States.


Breaking ground at the new site is the latest sign that Novartis is leading the pack in the cell-based flu vaccine race, following the June approval of its cell-based flu shot Optaflu in the EU.



The facility is expected to be able to produce 50 million doses of seasonal trivalent flu vaccine, and up to 150m doses of monovalent vaccine supplemented with company's adjuvant technology in the event of a pandemic outbreak.



This capacity at the Holly Springs, North Carolina, site is greater than at any other Novartis vaccine manufacturing plant, all of which use traditional egg-based vaccine production techniques.



Ground was broken at the site on Thursday, with completion expected in 2009 and initial vaccine production kicking off in 2011. Full capacity should be achieved "very quickly thereafter," but will also depend on market demand for seasonal vaccine, a company spokesperson told in-PharmaTechnologist.com.



The company's investment in the Holly Springs site is due to hit $600m (€443m), funded in part by a 2006 multi-million-dollar grant from the US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to support the development of cell culture-derived flu vaccines.



The HHS's aim is to be able to domestically produce 600 million doses of flu vaccine within six months of a pandemic outbreak declaration - a quarter of which could come from the Novartis facility.



Optaflu was the first cell-based flu vaccine to gain approval in the EU and is due to be submitted for regulatory review in the US next year. The vaccine is currently manufactured in Novartis' facilities in Marburg, Germany, and should be available in Germany and Austria for the 2007/8 flu season.



Production of Optaflu will be transferred to the Holly Springs facility once it becomes operational in a few years' time, though in-PharmaTechnologist.com was told that other production facilities should be safe, with no closures currently foreseen as a result of the new production site.



Novartis has a research license from French firm Vivalis to study its avian embryonic stem cell lines for potential vaccine and therapeutic protein development, but also has its own proprietary cell line derived from MDCK cells.



According to Novartis, virus cultivation using the company's proprietary cell line offers the possibility of more robust virus proliferation along with development of a vaccine seed strain that matches the original 'wild' virus more closely.



Earlier this year Novartis was also awarded an additional grant from the HHS to bring its vaccine adjuvant technology to the US. The adjuvant, MF-59, is currently used in Novartis' pandemic flu vaccine Focetria, recently granted approval in the EU.



The proprietary MF-59 adjuvant can be used to stretch supplies of vaccine, as it allows smaller quantities of viral antigens to be used in each dose compared to un-adjuvanted vaccines.



Regulators worldwide have thrown their weight behind technologies that could help combat the shortfall in global vaccine production capacity, and the associated potential crisis in the event of a flu pandemic.



Many firms have invested in researching dose-sparing measures such as the use of adjuvants, as well as shunning the traditional yet cumbersome egg-based manufacturing techniques.



Cell-based systems have come to the fore as the potential future of vaccine manufacture, promising to slash the time it takes to produce vaccine batches, increase the number of strains that can be incorporated into vaccines, and do away with the reliance on the availability of chicken eggs.



A wake-up call to the industry came during the 2004/5 flu season when contamination at a manufacturing site operated by Chiron, now part of Novartis, threatened half of the entire US flu vaccine supply. The episode alerted regulators and vaccine manufacturers to the shortcomings of current production methods, and kick-started the drive for alternatives with renewed vigour.



With World Health Organization concerns that global vaccine manufacturing capacity is simply not up to the job should a flu pandemic strike, the race has been on to develop more efficient production methods and safeguard public health.



With Novartis' Holly Springs facility representing the very first move into full-scale, dedicated cell culture-based vaccine manufacture in the US, the company appears to be leading the pack in this new era of vaccine production.



The use of 1950's technology for flu vaccine production is well, lame.
(Sorta like using vacuum tubes for radios.)

Looks like this will be as terrible as Bird Flu and SARS.