Originally Posted by Justin '77

Swine Flu May Be Human Error



Of course, those paragons of integrity and openness, the WHO ("there is no evidence of infection in pigs, nor of humans acquiring infection directly from pigs.") and the CDC ("US rooting around for a new name for swine flu") came right out to say that the theory is absolutely, no way nohow just not even the slightest, remotest bit possible. So we know they're right.

... and somewhere in the distance, Blue Oyster Cult isn't fearing the Reaper...

Originally Posted by The Rani

CNN report by loud and agitated woman.

She is loud and agitated(ing)

In April (21-25 to be exact) my wife and I took a vacation to Miami-Fort Lauderdale, FL area. Why did we go there? We didn't feel like traveling out of the US for just a short 4 day vacation. When we returned, the whole swine flu thing hit the media the following week. Then in early May, my wife was watching the "Regis and Kelly Show" live from Miami Beach. This caught my attention since we were just there a few weeks ago. As the day went on....I thought....wow, how convenient for the state of Florida and the city of Miami that they paid $1 million to the "Regis and Kelly Show" (it's a fact - Miami Herald reported it) to have them broadcast down there as a way attract families to south Florida right after the whole swine flu thing hit. You know, where the media kept on reporting not to go to Mexico anymore. Funny how things work like that. I bet 99% of Americans never even picked up on that....you know....the same 99% that believes 9/11 happened as the media says it did.

It was a nasty flu, but not lifechanging. He was quite sick for three days or so, then needed a few more to feel fully up to snuff. He did not require hospitalization. He had to take make-up final exams today.

Apparently, hundreds of kids have been catching the flu recently in northwestern New Jersey.

Originally Posted by Mr. Reed

Looks like this will be as terrible as Bird Flu and SARS.

http://www.wired.com/special_multime..._infoporn_1707

_____
Sir John Bull
requests the pleasure of Mr. and Mrs. Comm Republic's company
at a porcine influenza supper on Saturday next at eight o'clock.

1066 Norman Court
June the thirtieth

R.S.V.P.
_____

How about some CHANGE to go with your non-existent pandemic?

Because making corporations immune from responsibility is just what America needs more of...

Originally Posted by Justin '77

How about some CHANGE to go with your non-existent pandemic?

Because making corporations immune from responsibility is just what America needs more of...

Normally, I'd agree. This time, there is no time for real field trials, so the vaccine is going to be delivered in less than ideal conditions. From what I understand, the vaccine producers said that they would either get immunity or they wouldn't participate. I can understand them not wanting to risk a repeat of the Guillain-Barre Syndrome debacle.

So, it comes down to which side of the crap-shoot is least appealing, I guess. If you feel the pandemic is nonsense, don't take the vaccine.

Originally Posted by The Rani

If they are immune from lawsuits, they should also be immune from making profits.

I would say, immune from payment at all. If they want to claim the lawsuit-protection as justified since they are performing a public service, let it be a true public service -- charity.

Otherwise, let their and the Obama clan's bullshit be made clear for what it is. Privilege granted to the ruling class, by the ruling class.

Originally Posted by The Rani

40 million Americans were vaccinated in 1976? I don't remember that. I wonder if I was.

If they are immune from lawsuits, they should also be immune from making profits.

OK, then they'll simply not make vaccines they find risky.

We don't have a hundred facilities bidding to do this. Most vaccine production is already done by a few companies that have been bribed to do it. It's not all that profitable and making it risky (option 1) or truly unprofitable (option 2) removes any limited ability we have to get their cooperation.

Or do you favor eminent domain?

Originally Posted by The Rani

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

... Or do you favor eminent domain?

Do you?

HHS Purchases Additional H1N1 Vaccine Ingredients

These are the very contracts that are being placed outside the domain of the courts. Of course, you can try suing the governement, but it has sovereign immunity, so good luck.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

OK, then they'll simply not make vaccines they find risky.

Fair enough. If the genuine (that is, unsubsidized) risks outweigh the (also unsubsidized) rewards, then it's a perfectly reasonable decision simply not to engage in the undertaking. That's the way things work for real people in the real world -- there's no legitimate reason for a politically-connected group to get a break from that at the expense of the rest of humanity.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

... Of course, you can try suing the governement, but it has sovereign immunity, so good luck.

Then the government (aka We The People) should keep the profits.

From my understanding, the governement orders raw stock and/or finished product at a risk-free rate. All companies add risk $$$ to bids, so the risk free rate merely removes those risk $$$. The companies will still make a return for their efforts, or why do it at all? They are businesses, not charities.

If I had to guess, the contract is let on a cost plus basis. The price to the governement will be roughly 125% - 150% of the direct cost of production. If you want to call this 20% - 33% gross margin a "profit", you misunderstand what businesses do and how they work.

More on the Swine Flu, from those wacky Canucks

A “perplexing” Canadian study linking H1N1 to seasonal flu shots is throwing national influenza plans into disarray and testing public faith in the government agencies responsible for protecting the nation's health.


Distributed for peer review last week, the study confounded infectious-disease experts in suggesting that people vaccinated against seasonal flu are twice as likely to catch swine flu.


...


So far, the study's impact is confined to Canada. Researchers in the U.S., Britain and Australia have not reported the same phenomenon. Marie-Paule Kieny, the World Health Organization's director of vaccine research, said last week the Canadian findings were an international anomaly and could constitute a “study bias.”


An international panel is currently scrutinizing the research data. “The review process has been expedited, so we're hoping for a response within days,” said Roy Wadia, spokesman for the B.C. Centre for Disease Control.


Dr. Rubinstein, who has read the study, said it appears sound.
“There are a large number of authors, all of them excellent and credible researchers,” he said. “And the sample size is very large – 12 or 13 million people taken from the central reporting systems in three provinces. The research is solid.”

Science is so cool.

They say they're 'baffled' for why what they're observing might be happening, but I'm just certain someone here has some irresponsible semi-informed speculation.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

More on the Swine Flu, from those wacky CanucksScience is so cool.

They say they're 'baffled' for why what they're observing might be happening, but I'm just certain someone here has some irresponsible semi-informed speculation.

Maybe people who've been vaccinated against regular flu are overall more inclined to wash their hands less, not keep their distance from coughing children, or whatever... because they figure they're immune to anything really nasty. And so if swine flu is around, they'll get it.

Me myself I get flu shots religiously every year, ever since that time in '91 when I got sick visiting my parents in Vegas, and ended up flat on my back for three weeks. This year I'll be getting the swine flu shot as well, for good measure.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

More on the Swine Flu, from those wacky CanucksScience is so cool.

They say they're 'baffled' for why what they're observing might be happening, but I'm just certain someone here has some irresponsible semi-informed speculation.

Sure. I can oblige.

There is increasing speculation that one can over do the whole vaccination thing. The more one plays with the immune system, the more likely it is to go crazy in some odd way that no one understands.

Polio existed for a long time, but only became a major killer in the 1950s. Why was there an increase in breast cancer at about the same time? Why are allergic reactions to peanut products a big deal these days? My sister teaches first grade. One of her functions is tracking who can't eat peanuts, and managing the trading of snack foods. This wasn't a problem in my youth.

Medicine has done wondrous things with things like antibiotics and vaccinations. We've had decades where disease has been suppressed considerably. I'm not saying we should give up on the approach. However, we don't understand all the consequences. Strange stuff is bubbling up around the edges. With all these vaccinations, we've taught the human immune system to pounce on certain bugs. That's neat. We just don't know all there is about side effects. The capacity of the immune system is not infinite. In focusing it on this bug or that, what else might be happening?

I would really love to see some poll about vaccination attitudes broken down by age group. I'd hypothesize that the Boomer age brackets would have the most negative attitudes (plus maybe Xers also), while older generations and younger generations would be more supportive.

Boomers tend to be a bit anti-establishment in one form or another, and pro-vaccination statements tend to come from the establishment (government, health care industry, media, whatever), plus Boomers remember bad things about the 1976 Swine Flu vaccination program. Go read any online article about the H1N1 vaccinations, and within the first three comments there is invariably someone saying things like "You'll get Guilian-Barre!" and "I refuse to get this vaccination." Part of it too is how pro-choice (not "Pro-Choice" - I'm using the term generally) Boomers are by nature as well. Something is recommended and many Boomers are instantly extremely suspicious.

Xers probably get a lot of parent-directed messages about the supposed rampant dangers of vaccination (which of course ignore the rampant dangers of not having kids vaccinated), so they might be a bit wary of it as well.

Meanwhile, older generations remember things like Polio and Smallpox going away (more or less - at least in the U.S.) along with vaccination campaigns, and Millies have probably had very few problems with vaccinations. For as long as I can remember, the reported major side-effect rate for any recommended vaccines has been extremely low - plus, Millies aren't suspicious by default of establishment messages like the Boomers are. They can be suspicious if they have overwhelming evidence to not trust specific sources (i.e. obviously discredited people/sources), but they don't really see a reason to outrightly distrust what the CDC says, particularly when the CDC hasn't exactly earned a bad public reputation during the Millies' lifespans.

Anyway, I'm really hoping I can get the vaccine soon myself. While I had the seasonal shot a few weeks ago, it doesn't protect against H1N1, and H1N1 is widespread where I live. I work in Downtown Minneapolis (where people come from suburbs in all directions) and one of the suburban elementary schools was seeing like 15% absenteeism due to illness a week or two ago. I'm using hand sanitizer all the time, but I also touch my face a lot and ride the bus to work. People also seem to have no qualms about riding the bus to work while coughing and sneezing on other people. I'm the type of person who gets really sick when I get sick, so I will be most displeased if I get H1N1 right before vaccines show up. If I'm lucky, maybe I've been exposed to a trace amount of it here and there and I can develop immunity from that without getting sick. I'm not sure if that's possible, though.

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

I would really love to see some poll about vaccination attitudes broken down by age group. I'd hypothesize that the Boomer age brackets would have the most negative attitudes (plus maybe Xers also), while older generations and younger generations would be more supportive.

You may be on to something. One of my good friends, an Aquarian Wave Boomer (1949 cohort) is dead set against the vaccine and is sending e-mails on how harmful it is.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

You may be on to something. One of my good friends, an Aquarian Wave Boomer (1949 cohort) is dead set against the vaccine and is sending e-mails on how harmful it is.

One oddity... The swine flue isn't killing the elderly as much as most flues do, but is hitting the young harder than most. My doctor gave me the usual seasonal vaccine, but said people my age weren't recommended for the H1N1 version, which she didn't yet have, anyway. One theory is that older people have lived through prior H1N1 flues in their youth, and have some resistance.

I'm not dead set against this particular vaccine, but believe we have a lot to learn about side effects generated by vaccines in general.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

One oddity... The swine flue isn't killing the elderly as much as most flues do, but is hitting the young harder than most. My doctor gave me the usual seasonal vaccine, but said people my age weren't recommended for the H1N1 version, which she didn't yet have, anyway. One theory is that older people have lived through prior H1N1 flues in their youth, and have some resistance.

I'm not dead set against this particular vaccine, but believe we have a lot to learn about side effects generated by vaccines in general.

My understanding is that the 1918 influenza behaved much the same way... taking out mostly young adults in the prime of life while leaving the middle-aged, elderly and very young alone. Most of the deaths occurred, ironically, in people with very strong immune systems due to something called a cytokine storm.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

My understanding is that the 1918 influenza behaved much the same way... taking out mostly young adults in the prime of life while leaving the middle-aged, elderly and very young alone. Most of the deaths occurred, ironically, in people with very strong immune systems due to something called a cytokine storm.

Back in 1976, was the Swine Flu as rapport as it appears now. If so, what was the vaccine name. Just want to know since I was born 4 years before.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

Back in 1976, was the Swine Flu as rapport as it appears now. If so, what was the vaccine name. Just want to know since I was born 4 years before.

My recollection is that the '76 flu, which hit around the time I moved to California, was pretty much a dud. It was totally overhyped by the media as a deadly peril, a few people came down with it, and then it was gone. That's pretty much what I expect to happen this time, too.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

You may be on to something. One of my good friends, an Aquarian Wave Boomer (1949 cohort) is dead set against the vaccine and is sending e-mails on how harmful it is.

For me, the question of whether or not to take the H1N1 vaccine is probably moot. I'm pretty sure my daughter is recovering from it. She, and several of her friends, all came down with a bug on Sunday or Monday. One of her friends was confirmed as a case of H1N1, so I suspect that's what they all got.

For my daughter, it's been a fairly typical bug. Her complaints were sore throat, nausea (but no vomiting), lack of appetite, achiness, and moderate fever (around 101 degrees). Her temp was down today and her appetite came back. I expect that she'll be back in school next week.

Has any one tracked down the story of a highly virulent form of either H1N1 or something worst (!) rapidly spreading in the Ukraine?

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/ne...rrives-Roundup

I've seen it reported that this is only a case of slow response in a poorer former Soviet state but other indicators that there might be something more to it -

http://afludiary.blogspot.com/2009/1...-outbreak.html

any insight?

Also, here is an interesting interactive map showing how H1N1 is becoming pandemic -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8083179.stm

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

For me, the question of whether or not to take the H1N1 vaccine is probably moot. I'm pretty sure my daughter is recovering from it. She, and several of her friends, all came down with a bug on Sunday or Monday. One of her friends was confirmed as a case of H1N1, so I suspect that's what they all got.

For my daughter, it's been a fairly typical bug. Her complaints were sore throat, nausea (but no vomiting), lack of appetite, achiness, and moderate fever (around 101 degrees). Her temp was down today and her appetite came back. I expect that she'll be back in school next week.

I assume daughter okay?