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Thread: Political Archetypes - Page 4







Post#76 at 05-04-2009 10:44 AM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
One question I always have for those who say that marriage is for the propagation of children (true, but incomplete) is -

Would you think the marriage of a couple in their 70s is valid? or not? Since propagation of the species is clearly out of the question with them.

However - I do agree with the statement that churches should make their own marriage rules and marry people according to their beliefs, but if it comes to status before the law, that's for the courthouse, which should not discriminate. Because everyone should have the right to make a legal contract which gives them certain rights before the law. To do so and restrict this to the secular arm only in no way tramples on the rights of the churches, except their "right" to impose their belief on nonbelievers through the law.

Likewise, giving people the right to make this contract in no way harms your marriage or mine. To quote a noted deist, "it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my arm." If you want a law that actually did harm the permanence of marriage, try no-fault divorce.
You're simply wrong. Marriage carries legal consequences, as does the enshrinement of homosexuality as a protected class. It should not be hard to understand the basic fact that the law in the United States will have declared an aspect of religious teaching "bigotry" in concrete terms. From that point on, anyone caught in a circumstance where that belief comes into conflict with gay privileges will be on the wrong side of the law. You are not merely "making gays free", you are, as a consequence, shoving people of faith down, into "outsider" status under the law.

In short, our society will be making a choice that will fundamentally alter its position towards people of faith. It will be choosing to drive people of faith out of the mainstream in order to bring homosexuals into it. If you have any doubt, look at Miss USA.

Already in some places in this country, in a few short years:

- You cannot be a Christian and be Miss USA.
- You cannot be a Catholic organization and provide adoption services in Massachusetts.

That is just the tip of the iceberg. The bottom line is that we will be taking gays "out of the closet" and shoving people of faith into it. And that is exactly what the people leading this charge want. The previous poster even said so. He wants Christians to be viewed synonymously with the KKK.







Post#77 at 05-04-2009 10:53 AM by SVE-KRD [at joined Apr 2007 #posts 1,097]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
He wants Christians to be viewed synonymously with the KKK.
Which, given the likely racial makeup of American Christianity by the next 2T, will be MOST IRONIC!







Post#78 at 05-04-2009 11:03 AM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by SVE-KRD View Post
Which, given the likely racial makeup of American Christianity by the next 2T, will be MOST IRONIC!
Considering the prevalence of racial slurs being shouted at passers-by in the violent gay protests after Prop 8 in CA, that shouldn't be an obstacle.







Post#79 at 05-04-2009 12:12 PM by SVE-KRD [at joined Apr 2007 #posts 1,097]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
Considering the prevalence of racial slurs being shouted at passers-by in the violent gay protests after Prop 8 in CA, that shouldn't be an obstacle.
I do recall, in other contexts, Israeli Jews being called Nazis. Not that much different, I would guess.







Post#80 at 05-04-2009 12:12 PM by Kurt Horner [at joined Oct 2001 #posts 1,656]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Isn't the End of the Last Awakening 25 years out of date? And the end of the last unraveling more timely?
The position of the arc of respectability would be the same. The schema above posits that the arc rotates during social moments and remains static during Highs and Unravelings.

I'm going to produce some more graphics that will explain a mechanism for this, but I haven't yet gotten to it.







Post#81 at 05-04-2009 12:41 PM by 90s_Boy [at joined Apr 2007 #posts 111]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
anti-gay stuff
Oh well woop-de-doo. The gays are going to get married! It's the end of the world!

You seem so hell bent to keep the culture wars alive despite your deep hatred for boomers. It's very confusing.

I'm still trying to figure out how this whole mega-saeculum thing works but it does seem genuinely interesting. Hope to see how this thread turns out later and see more details added to the theory (if it doesn't get ruined by all these gay arguments by then).







Post#82 at 05-04-2009 12:48 PM by Kurt Horner [at joined Oct 2001 #posts 1,656]
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Quote Originally Posted by 90s_Boy View Post
Hope to see how this thread turns out later and see more details added to the theory (if it doesn't get ruined by all these gay arguments by then).
Yeah . . . it would be nice if the gay rights dust-up could be moved to another thread.







Post#83 at 05-04-2009 01:21 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Matt1989 View Post
There we go

The reason I asked is because natural law, as a political principle, has existed in some form or another, pretty continuously in the West (and now other cultures), since at least Socrates, Plato, and (especially) Aristotle. Personally, I think the 'natural law/conventional law' distinction is a good one, and I don't see it fading away as the times change.
I think the argument is between your definition of natural law and Odin's. The natural law of Socrates and Plato is very different from that of Newton, and Darwin, yet there is thread that runs through them all. Why assume that a math-based system is not a suitable next step?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#84 at 05-04-2009 01:26 PM by Matt1989 [at joined Sep 2005 #posts 3,018]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
I think the argument is between your definition of natural law and Odin's. The natural law of Socrates and Plato is very different from that of Newton, and Darwin, yet there is thread that runs through them all. Why assume that a math-based system is not a suitable next step?
Ah. Odin, can you clarify?







Post#85 at 05-04-2009 01:31 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by David Krein View Post
JPT - I can't let your statement "There is no question that Iowa voters will reverse the recent ruling there at the first opportunity." pass without comment. I should first state my own view on "gay marriage." I think it is a long-standing mistake that the United States allows clergy to act as agents of the state when it comes to marriage and they should be stripped of this civil authority. Marriage is a religious service/sacrament and should be confined to that. I am agnostic as to whether various religions should sanction same-sex marriages; that's their business. The state, however, has an interest in civil union contracts, and should be the sole agent for ratifying them. Let us separate church from state and require those who want to enter into civil unions (now, perhaps mistakenly, called marriage) should find a Justice of the Peace or other government officer to ratify the contract and if they want to also get married then find clergy willing to perform the ceremony. In other words, we should do what Germany did with the May Laws in the 1870s. Get united at the courthouse, and later get married at a church/mosque/synagogue, etc., if so desired.
This may be an off-topic comment, but I wanted to add my voice to this idea. It's an odd coincidence that my wife and I were discussing this very topic last Saturday, and we agreed that the idea of marriage is a religious one. The secular impacts, taxes, inheritance and implied power of attorney have no religious overtones at all. The implied linkage is flawed, or that was the conclusion we reached at any rate.

It's auspicious that you mentioned it. I think others have similar beliefs, even though they may not be able to articulate them this plainly.
Last edited by Marx & Lennon; 05-04-2009 at 01:33 PM.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#86 at 05-04-2009 01:38 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Horner View Post
Yeah . . . it would be nice if the gay rights dust-up could be moved to another thread.
I'm not particularly interested in continuing it. Especially not on this forum.

Can you give an underlying explanation for your concept? S&H were able to pin their theories to human life cycles. Can you explain why it happens?







Post#87 at 05-04-2009 02:23 PM by Kurt Horner [at joined Oct 2001 #posts 1,656]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
Can you give an underlying explanation for your concept? S&H were able to pin their theories to human life cycles. Can you explain why it happens?
It will help when I have some graphics, but here are the basics.

At the beginning of a social moment, the current generation in power has steered politics toward the trailing edge of the arc. For example, in this Unraveling, Prophets have steadily gained power and with that influence has steadily moved from the true left to the true right. Anyone in the upcoming Nomad generation reacting to that would adopt views corresponding to the reverse arc spanning from true right through the top to true left. Thus the bias in the Nomad generation is upper left. As the Crisis proceeds and Boomer leadership gives way to Nomads, there will be a "tug" toward the upper left which realigns the arc of respectability.

In a non-social moment turning the reactive effect is scattered over a wider arc covering more than half of the chart (225 degrees rather than 180). This diffuse reaction prevents the arc from rotating back during Highs and Unravelings. Politics still shift back toward the trailing edge but the arc stays put. This in turn creates a reaction in a 180 degree arc which drives the next social moment.

The result is a rotating ratchet. So we have:

American Revolution -> politics swing from true bottom to upper right, traversing the left in the meantime
Early Republic -> politics swing from upper right to lower left, with an upper left bias
Transcendental Awakening -> lower left to true right
Antebellum -> true right to true left with an upper bias
Civil War -> true left to lower right
Gilded Age -> lower right to upper left
Progressive Era -> upper left to true bottom
Roaring Twenties -> true bottom to true top
Depression Crisis -> true top to lower left
American High -> lower left to upper right
Consciousness Awakening -> upper right to true left
Culture Wars -> true left to true right
Current Crisis -> true right to upper left
Next High -> upper left to lower right
Next Awakening -> lower right to true top
Next Unraveling -> true top to true bottom
Next Crisis -> Same as American Revolution







Post#88 at 05-04-2009 02:28 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Personally I think if two people really want to be together then live and let live.

If they want the court to recognize them as married fine.

If the churches don't want to recognize them, then the government has no business in forcing them to do so.

What's the big deal?

~Chas'88
The government isn't trying to force the churches to recognize them. The churches are trying to prevent the government from recognizing them. That's the problem.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#89 at 05-04-2009 03:10 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
The government isn't trying to force the churches to recognize them. The churches are trying to prevent the government from recognizing them. That's the problem.
I wasn't suggesting that they were, my reply was more in response to JPT who was suggesting a future world where they would. IMO I don't see where all of the hullaballoo is going. I know very well that currently churches are trying to prevent the government from recognizing them, but IMO they should just mind their own business. Enjoy your little sliver of the world for what remains of it and for however much longer it lasts.

Or for those who still "believe" in the transition from Age of Pisces to Age of Aquarius thinking, I'll put it into a Rock, Paper, Scissors terminology:

Ram (Grecco-Roman) kills Bull (Egypt).
Fish (Christianity) kills Ram (Grecco-Roman).
Waterboy kills fish (Christianity).



~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#90 at 05-04-2009 03:36 PM by SVE-KRD [at joined Apr 2007 #posts 1,097]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Enjoy your little sliver of the world for what remains of it and for however much longer it lasts.

Or for those who still "believe" in the transition from Age of Pisces to Age of Aquarius thinking, I'll put it into a Rock, Paper, Scissors terminology:

Ram (Grecco-Roman) kills Bull (Egypt).
Fish (Christianity) kills Ram (Grecco-Roman).
Waterboy kills Fish (Christianity).
Quite true - for the Western and Orthodox Worlds. However, in Sub-saharan Africa, Latin America, and parts of Southeast Asia,...







Post#91 at 05-04-2009 03:46 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
Your statement shows clearly that you have no concern for anyone but yourself. Your desires are all that matters, and you don't care who you have to destroy to get what you want.

Your analogy to race is false, and unsustainable.




We have a militant, vitriolic, uncompromising movement demanding the overthrow of marriage as it has existed throughout human history, based on claims that have no basis in fact.

As I said before, the real problem here from a political and legal standpoint is not the issue of whether homosexuality is right or wrong. In a free society, people should be able to hold either belief without being discriminated against for it, and consenting adults should be free to do what they want within the privacy of their own homes.

The problem is that the militant gay movement is determined to gain legal preference for their view on the issue, and then use the law to attack anyone who disagrees with them. If that means discriminating against people of faith, so be it.

In your mind, you may be perfectly willing to stomp all over the rights of people of faith to get what you want, and lump them in with racists, the KKK and so on. But religious freedom is a very different thing. You are not going to be able to drive faith out of society by social or legal pressure. You are going to have to kill people.

This movement will fail, even if it succeeds. The only question is how much damage will be done. Part of the reason is that everyone knows, regardless of the politically correct cultural discourse, and regardless of whether they have religious faith or not, that human sexual functioning exists for the purpose of propagating the species. Even from a purely Darwinian viewpoint, that is clear. It is also clear that human beings have found infinite ways of indulging in sexual activity, not just two or three (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, etc.). People have sex with animals and inanimate objects. Some people are into S&M. Thanks to shows like Jerry Springer, we know that some people gain sexual gratification from dressing up in diapers. There are heterosexual transvestites. The list is infinite, and the idea that these are all inborn, unchangeable traits is absurd.

What it really comes down to is a question of expanding Civil Rights to include almost anything. We might as well (and may soon) establish obesity, alcoholism or drug addiction as special protected classes under the Constitution. By claiming Civil Rights for every conceivable interest group under the sun, the very concept is de-legitimized.

Ultimately, we have gotten into this situation because of "identity politics". Instead of seeing people as individuals, we see them as members of groups, pitted against each other in constant battle. It is one of the ultimate legacies of the Baby Boom generation. We have discarded fact, reason and truth in favor emotion, self-centeredness and entitlement. We are charging headlong into drastic actions, with no one asking the important questions about what the consequences will be. You can apply that from Iraq, to Global Warming, to Gay Marriage. It's all the same.

Forget about establishing consensus and coming to proper conclusions. We have, as a society, from top to bottom, adopted the mantra "Don't Confuse Me With the Facts!". We don't even attempt to find out what the facts and truth are before we form opinions. We just know what we want, and we're going to get it, and we don't care what we have to do to make it happen.

It can't end well.
For most of human history marriages were arranged affairs based on securing social ties between families, love was rarely a part of it.

The rest of your post is a fallacy-filled "gay marriage is going to destroy society" polemic with no basis in fact. Replace "gay marriage" with "interracial marriage" and you would sound like some 50's Segregationist, it's the same reasoning.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#92 at 05-04-2009 04:10 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Matt1989 View Post
Ah. Odin, can you clarify?
OK, here goes.

In every complex society there is a tension between an opinion that people can be molded to religious or ideological ends and an opinion that says that people's behavior is guided by natural forces and social rules are merely tools of oppression by elite governing classes. Both opinions base themselves on the philosophical, religious, and scientific notions current in a society. The reason, for example, that Evolutionary Psychology is so controversial and ideologically sensitive is that it disturbs the sociological and anthropological models that sustain the notions of social engineering created by the Missionaries used by various ideologies, especially those of a Marxist variety. As the Mega-Unraveling begins the rejection of social engineering will congeal around the science of the time.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#93 at 05-04-2009 04:42 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
The government isn't trying to force the churches to recognize them. The churches are trying to prevent the government from recognizing them. That's the problem.
I gave you an example that has already happened. The Catholic Church was given an ultimatum after the MA supreme court forced the state to enact gay marriage: provide adoption services to gays or stop providing adoption services. They chose the latter. I guess it depends on how you define "force". Certainly there was coercion. Not to change the policies of the church, but to change its practices. The Supreme Court has already decided this issue in favor of forcing religious organizations to follow the law when there is a conflict.

So as the government pursues policies that attempt to force the acceptance of homosexuality, there will be a corresponding negative coercive pressure on religious organizations and individuals to either get on board, or suffer the consequences.

In other words, "you can believe whatever you want to believe, but you can't act in accordance with it without being punished". If we were, as a society, truly interested in finding compromise, we would be having an entirely different discussion. Unfortunately, the militant left wing position is to accept no compromise. You can see it illustrated quite clearly on this board.







Post#94 at 05-04-2009 04:46 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
I gave you an example that has already happened. The Catholic Church was given an ultimatum after the MA supreme court forced the state to enact gay marriage: provide adoption services to gays or stop providing adoption services. They chose the latter. I guess it depends on how you define "force". Certainly there was coercion. Not to change the policies of the church, but to change its practices. The Supreme Court has already decided this issue in favor of forcing religious organizations to follow the law when there is a conflict.

So as the government pursues policies that attempt to force the acceptance of homosexuality, there will be a corresponding negative coercive pressure on religious organizations and individuals to either get on board, or suffer the consequences.

In other words, "you can believe whatever you want to believe, but you can't act in accordance with it without being punished". If we were, as a society, truly interested in finding compromise, we would be having an entirely different discussion. Unfortunately, the militant left wing position is to accept no compromise. You can see it illustrated quite clearly on this board.
Did the Catholic adoption agencies receive any Federal funds? Maybe that was an element in their coercion.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#95 at 05-04-2009 04:49 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
OK, here goes.

In every complex society there is a tension between an opinion that people can be molded to religious or ideological ends and an opinion that says that people's behavior is guided by natural forces and social rules are merely tools of oppression by elite governing classes. Both opinions base themselves on the philosophical, religious, and scientific notions current in a society. The reason, for example, that Evolutionary Psychology is so controversial and ideologically sensitive is that it disturbs the sociological and anthropological models that sustain the notions of social engineering created by the Missionaries used by various ideologies, especially those of a Marxist variety. As the Mega-Unraveling begins the rejection of social engineering will congeal around the science of the time.
As I showed with the Wiki citations you deemed unworthy of your time, the "science of our time" shows pretty clearly that genetic determinism with regard to human psychology and behavior is being rapidly discredited as a possibility. The statements made in those quotes with regard to homosexuality are applicable across a wide range of studies.

For example, I read not long ago about a study that was done on violent criminals, in an attempt to isolate biological/genetic causes or markers that triggered violent behavior. That study reached the same conclusion: "Complex interaction of biology, genetics environment, etc. etc...no one simple explanation is possible".

Simply put, the complexity of the human biology is such that human behavior defies the kind of simplistic, reductionist explanations you're suggesting (i.e. evolutionary psychology).

Meaning - not only is there no concrete evidence of biological "hard-wiring" for sexual behavior, it is also impossible to prove that sexual preferences are persistent over the course of single individual's lifetime.
Last edited by JustPassingThrough; 05-04-2009 at 04:56 PM.







Post#96 at 05-04-2009 04:52 PM by 1990 [at Savannah, GA joined Sep 2006 #posts 1,450]
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Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Horner View Post
Yeah . . . it would be nice if the gay rights dust-up could be moved to another thread.
As one of the two original participants, I agree wholeheartedly!
My Turning-based Map of the World

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Post#97 at 05-04-2009 04:58 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
As I showed with the Wiki citations you deemed unworthy of your time, the "science of our time" shows pretty clearly that genetic determinism with regard to human psychology and behavior is being rapidly discredited as a possibility. The statements made in those quotes with regard to homosexuality are applicable across a wide range of studies.

For example, I read not long ago about a study that was done on violent criminals, in an attempt to isolate biological/genetic causes or markers that triggered violent behavior. That study reached the same conclusion: "Complex interaction of biology, genetics environment, etc. etc...no one simple explanation is possible".

Simply put, the complexity of the human biology is such that human behavior defies the kind of simplistic, reductionist explanations you're suggesting (i.e. evolutionary psychology).

Meaning - not only is there no concrete evidence of biological "hard-wiring" for sexual behavior, it is also impossible to prove that sexual preferences are persistent over the course of single individual's lifetime.
Don't mean to sound nasty, but just remember JPT, you're talking to a Civic there, and we Civics don't stop to ask questions of whether you like something or not, we just do it. Other generations, mostly the Artists, are left to clean up the mess or maintain it (depends on your POV really). So remember, something that puts ideas/ideals simply, easily, and without a lot of frills is of great attraction to the Civic mindset, because without simplistic solutions to our complex problems we'd never be able to get things done.

Just trying to bridge the Gen. Gap,

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#98 at 05-04-2009 05:03 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Did the Catholic adoption agencies receive any Federal funds? Maybe that was an element in their coercion.
Federal funds could not have been an issue, because it was not an issue of federal law. State funds, perhaps. Unless I'm mistaken, any organization providing adoption services has to be authorized and licensed by the state to do so. That's undoubtedly where the problem arose.

The Catholic Church had been providing that service in Boston for 100 years. Bam - goodbye. It's nothing less than an anti-religion purge in the making. It's hardly new. The Soviet Union allowed religion, technically speaking. The Chinese allow religious observance - in groups of about 25 or less.
Last edited by JustPassingThrough; 05-04-2009 at 05:10 PM.







Post#99 at 05-04-2009 05:05 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Don't mean to sound nasty, but just remember JPT, you're talking to a Civic there, and we Civics don't stop to ask questions of whether you like something or not, we just do it. Other generations, mostly the Artists, are left to clean up the mess or maintain it (depends on your POV really). So remember, something that puts ideas/ideals simply, easily, and without a lot of frills is of great attraction to the Civic mindset, because without simplistic solutions to our complex problems we'd never be able to get things done.

Just trying to bridge the Gen. Gap,

~Chas'88
That may be, but unfortunately that says nothing about the rightness or wrongness of those actions. German Civics of the last 4T being a good example.

As I mentioned before, sorry for confusing you with the facts.
Last edited by JustPassingThrough; 05-04-2009 at 05:08 PM.







Post#100 at 05-04-2009 05:08 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
That may be, but unfortunately that says nothing about the rightness or wrongness of those actions. German Civics of the last 4T being a good example.
Jawohl mein Herr!

Oh, and of course our tiny one-tract little brains can't possibly handle... the facts!

~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 05-04-2009 at 05:14 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
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