So concentration camps are not out of the question as far as you're concerned, I take it?Originally Posted by Chas'88
Jawohl mein Herr!
~Chas'88
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So concentration camps are not out of the question as far as you're concerned, I take it?Jawohl mein Herr!
~Chas'88
No, you're taking me seriously when you shouldn't be. Also, I was agreeing with you on the fact that Civics don't have a good moral compass. We expect our parents & elders to tell us what to do.I didn't have any other meaning than that. Just in case you're wondering as to why the German response:
1) I'm studying abroad in Wien
2) I'm listening to Cabaret on iTunes at the moment:
Bye bye mein liebe Herr, farewell mein liebe Herr, it was a fine affair, but now it's over. And though I used to care I need the open air. You're better off without me, Mein Herr!
~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 05-04-2009 at 05:33 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
I may be making an assumption about you here, but it looks like I'm not the only straight guy in the world who openly listens to musicals on iTunes.1) I'm studying abroad in Wien
2) I'm listening to Cabaret on iTunes at the moment:
Bye bye mein liebe Herr, farewell mein liebe Herr, it was a fine affair, but now it's over. And though I used to care I need the open air. You're better off without me, Mein Herr!
~Chas'88
In any case, Cabaret is good stuff. Actually, I have found that because of their compelling plots and enduring popularity, the two major Kander & Ebb/Fosse musicals (Cabaret and Chicago) are perfect examples to use when introducing someone to the idea of generational cycles (Chicago epitomizing 3T cynicism and Cabaret portraying the eerie excess of the 3T-4T cusp).
Quite true all around 1990.
If you recall some of my past posts (IYRSOMPPs? Would that work for web speak?), I do mention my ex-girlfriend, the Mormon who tried to convert me from my Methodist beliefs. Oh, for JPT: In the last Methodist Conclave, where all the ministers from around the country gathered together, 45% voted in favor of recognizing GLBT people as decent upstanding folk. Only 50% voted no, and 5% were left unsure. That percentage grew from the last time when it was somewhere in the 30s. Doesn't surprise me, since we're the only religion that allows divorced Catholics to remarry.
As to musicals, my Momma brought me up on the old classics: Rodgers & Hammerstein as well as Lerner & Lowe. Beyond them, they mostly had MGM movie musicals. They also had a small sampling of Camden and Green (Bells Are Ringing) and I was left to fill in the rest of my Musical Theatre education on my own. At first I didn't like Cabaret too much (the movie kinda did that for me), but then I listened to the soundtrack & I've been hooked ever since.
I also find that Chicago & Cabaret are equally good as well for doing the same & I like the social messages in them. I wonder what musicals they'll write about our 3T & 3/4 T cusp?
Bush: The Musical *snickers*
(Hmm... I'm in quite the silly mood for some reason... strange since I was fuming a few hours ago...)
~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 05-04-2009 at 05:58 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
My apologies to the venerable Mr. Horner...
... I'm afraid I've taken over the thread and taken us wildly off topic. I would like to ceremoniously return it to it's original purpose.
So how does that Arc of acceptability work again?
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Uh, there is a "delete post" , dude.(My guess is that JPT yanked your chain by making assorted references to *Germans. )
*Germans -> Pennsylvania "Dutch".
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP
There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."
Very nice theory, Kurt. The Missionary Generation established the Bible Belt, Jim Crow, and virulent racism/nationalism/ethnocentrism in much of the world. The Depression/WWII Crisis pretty much perfected nationalist statist authority throughout most of the world, including the Communist nations. At the frontiers of visionary thought during that era was a national liberal state that protected human rights. The Boom Awakening perfectly explains the red/blue social divide that existed since that time. The Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll meme that existed during that time reflects the rising and mainstreaming of the left half of the chart. Also, the dramatic drop off in gender and ethnic/racial discrimination reflects the wane of the right side.
The lower left seems like a very good fit for these times. Obama won the presidency by embracing a staunchly progressive platform. Nationalization of failing private enterprises has been seriously considered by both major parties, and has already been enacted in a limited degree. Nationalization could loom for the auto industries, or any other critical private sector industry. Bigotry is now clearly out of the mainstream. During the prior Awakening, the ideology of the United Federation of Planets still seemed very visionary and futuristic. But today, that idea is much closer to the mainstream as before; the liberal humanitarian collectivist vision of the Star Trek future perfectly fits the mainstream in the Age of Obama. In fact, it has been mentioned several times in diverse media outlets how the new Star Trek movie perfectly the Obama Age. By the end of the prior Crisis, the most conceivable cutting edge future was the Star Trek future, which falls on the lower left. Today, that same cutting edge bloc fits the P2P/FLOS/programmable future of today's leading technological tinkers. This also suggests that human rights should prove a much more dominant meme by the end of this Crisis than the end of the prior Awakening.
So, by the next Awakening, human rights based memes should be dominant. Also, radical individualism should explode onto the scene. To me, this new individualism should make self modifications (piercings, cosmetic surgery, cyborgism, etc.) rather popular ideas. Also, with the direction of technological evolution, the meme of "off gridding" should acquire a whole new meaning. This hyperindividualism will be matched with information age technologies and will likely perfect the closed loop system, which will allow individuals and their families to be totally independent of the outside material world. They will manufacture and recycle their own food, products, and waste. Many will establish oceanic and space settlements. The main social tensions should then be between Millennials still rooted in Obama Age Progressivism, and New Prophets who will then embrace Radical Individualism. Interesting Stuff.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er
To be honest, Mr. Horner's model has got me baffled.
On the most basic level, I don't understand why the vertical axis is simple rules/precise rules. Seems like it ought to be simple/complex, since the other axis represents polar opposites. Then he's got the center shifting at 45 degree intervals, but at different speeds in Awakenings and Crises vs. Highs and Unravelings. Or something. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
But that would just create "holes" in the thread, and holes need to be filled.Uh, there is a "delete post" , dude.
*Germans -> Pennsylvania "Dutch".
Meinen Vorfahren waren in seiner Worte nicht, aber Auschwitz in seiner Worte war.
So yeah... about that arch... (Is refusing to be completely tempted off topic). Is it possible to swing halfway in one direction then swing back in the other?
~Chas'88 (whose German grammar isn't the best of things)
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
No more than rejecting alcoholic beverages makes one a pariah in a society that accepts alcohol.
Mainstream gay and lesbian organizations do not ask for "special privileges" for gays and lesbians -- just for the same right to express love between consenting adults as straights can. Some men can only love other men, and some women can love only other women. Don't ask me why -- I don't know.
NAMBLA is not mainstream; sex between adults and children will be very wrong for a long time. The offense of NAMBLA isn't that it supports a certain form of homosexuality; it's that it it supports child abuse. Are you any less offended by adult having sex with little girls as you are with men having sex with boys? If so you are a hypocrite.
Slippery-slope argument. Next thing you know, you will argue that tolerance for homosexuality will lead to tolerance for incest.In short, our society will be making a choice that will fundamentally alter its position towards people of faith. It will be choosing to drive people of faith out of the mainstream in order to bring homosexuals into it. If you have any doubt, look at Miss USA.
Already in some places in this country, in a few short years:
- You cannot be a Christian and be Miss USA.
- You cannot be a Catholic organization and provide adoption services in Massachusetts.
Who says that gays can't be "people of faith"? If homosexuality is wrong for you, then you have a simple response: just don't do it. Just because rock climbing (a dangerous activity) is legal does not mean that I must do it.That is just the tip of the iceberg. The bottom line is that we will be taking gays "out of the closet" and shoving people of faith into it. And that is exactly what the people leading this charge want. The previous poster even said so. He wants Christians to be viewed synonymously with the KKK.
By the way -- little is easier than resisting a gay pass. I've done it.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Indeed, and it is important to note that these policies are not particularly popular, even on the left. We can already see the public starting to draw a distinction between good interventions and bad ones. Bailouts are pretty much the ultimate in precision rulemaking -- to make a special exception for a specific group -- and they clearly illustrate the way in which precision doesn't necessarily promote socially optimal results.
It's too soon to tell whether the current party structure will survive this Crisis, but assuming it does, I expect the Democratic party to be more market oriented than the Republicans by the end of the Crisis (although their rhetoric might not describe their policies that way).
Yep, but the actual triumph of this worldview will have to wait for the next Crisis when it becomes the political center.
Quit thread-jacking!!!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
So Upper-left Individualist Transhumanism versus old "Bio-Conservative" Progressivism in the next 2T? Makes sense, especially given the strong dislike of Transhumanist ideas I run into on Democratic Underground.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
This is going to be my last post related to this topic in this thread, because Kurt's theory (which is quite interesting and deserves more attention) is supposed to be the topic here. I apologize for being part of the derail.
That's not our goal. I've met literally ZERO gay people who have any desire to destroy Christianity. Most of us are Christian. And there's next to no desire to force churches who don't want to marry us to marry us, though there are going to be forces that attempt to persuade them to change their minds.
That being said, we're not going to let ourselves be second class citizens so as to risk not making the Baptists mad. If you don't want us at your church, fine. But I'm not going to allow myself to be denied 1100 rights that you have just by existing and liking heterosexual sex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_..._United_States
Once again, the U.S. has seperation of CHURCH and STATE. We don't particularily care about the CHURCH. The CHURCH is not required or necessary to get married, and if it wants to discriminate against me, I really don't care. But I do care about the STATE not telling me I can't have my (at this time, theoretical) partner visit me in the hospital, or that I can't have the tax breaks or health insurance rights that married couples have, or that I have to write up thousands of dollars of legal papers to be able to leave my assets to him that can be overthrown by judges like yourself.
People can't marry animals or inanimate objects because there's no way for the animal or inanimate object to consent. Heterosexual people that are into S&M, dressing up in diapers, and dressing like the opposite sex can all marry. There's no litmus test for that. If you're aruging that there should be, that's a completely different battle to have and one that will impossible to win.
But we are establishing consensus and slowly coming to the conclusion that gay marriage is going to be the right and beneficial thing to do to our country.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/...-marriage.html
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archi...0/1917511.aspx
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04...y4972643.shtml
Even when you factor out that these polls are always a bit inflated by people who say they're for things they're not, there's still a growing group that is for gay marriage. And, probably within the next 5 years or so, we're going to be looking at a majority, especially as more states pass equality laws and we see that the sky hasn't fallen. The sky won't fall for you or your church either, if anything, being against it will give something for you guys to rally behind.
Carrie Prejean's sin is not being against gay marriage, or being Christian. Her sin is breaking the primary rule of answering beauty pageant quetions: You must smile and be positive no matter what is asked of you, even if you disagree with it, even if it's a fat gay moron like Perez Hilton asking it of you. If you come off as negative, you lose, because nobody wants a negative Miss USA. The beauty pageant winner response to that question is "I think it's wonderful that we live in society where we have the freedom and liberty to have such a vibrant discourse on this subject. I hope that one day we can all come up with a solution that allows the rights of all Americans to be recognized and that everyone can agree on."
I agree with you that churches shouldn't be forced to marry gay couples. I agree with your likely position that the woman who sued to force E-Harmony to make a gay website using the NJ court system shouldn't have won (there's plenty of other alternatives out there, and a lesbian who wanted to make an E-Harmony style site for other lesbians would probably do a better job). If I don't like them, I don't give them my money and I try to convince others not to as well. But this doesn't mean I'm going to stand for being a second class citizen in my own country, or that I'm going to allow it to happen without fighting it.
A wholesome ending to a 4T depends upon:
1. A Civic generation that trusts leadership that makes the great moral decisions on their behalf well enough to make great personal sacrifices; that generation is not in the Struggle solely out of enticements of adventure or personal gain. Such was missing in the American Civil War and the Bolshevik Revolution/Russian Civil War.
2. A Reactive generation that already has experienced hardships that it doesn't want others to experience, one mature enough (entering its middle-to-late 40s at the least) to offer shrewd, canny management of economic resources. Its worst actors have been purged, and it has strong survival values.
3. An Idealist generation that has consolidated a moral, visionary, principled agenda and is at the apex or at least near it. Its leadership has been culled of its weak, cranky, angry, and neurotic figures. The top political leadership can call upon the great lessons of history as the teaching of heroic models. Churchill. FDR. Lincoln. Gandhi. Mannerheim.
Two disasters are possible involving an Idealist leadership. One is that it enters the Crisis still waging "culture wars" and tends toward hostile and exclusive camps set on the annihilation of each other. The American Civil War and the Bolshevik Revolution/Russian Civil War exemplify the danger of a Crisis that strikes too soon -- and because of the generational constellation, too hard. The other is that the Reactive generation has overthrown the Idealist generation too early and proves callous, cynical, and reckless (Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, Laval, and most of Stalin's murderous henchmen) -- which ensures that any victories that such leaders get are empty, or that Reactive leadership fails to formulate a moral agenda (Dollfuss, Schuschnigg, Daladier, Benes, Beck, Chiang Kai-Shek) suitable to the defeat of evil. Leaders more ruthless than they can defeat them in the preliminary stages of Great Struggles.
4. Adaptive leadership is out of the way. Habits that serve them well in any time other than a Crisis fail them badly. They trust too much, and their commitments to compromise and procedure hamstring an effective response to monumental danger.
So what was wrong with the German contemporaries of our GI generation? There were some thoroughly-evil characters (Heydrich, Kaltenbrunner, Eichmann, Mengele) -- but someone had to give them the questionable opportunities to do such evil as they did. Around 1929 four generations were in place, and they did their roles badly. Start with the few surviving old Adaptive adults -- specifically Paul von Hindenburg. The elderly President of Germany might not be faulted for the economic distress, but as things deteriorated he insisted upon process and compromise from people completely undeserving of trust.
The Idealist generation had lost much of its credibility during the Great War -- and they were incredibly incompetent at making deals. Papen wanted to restore the German monarchy and Hugenberg wanted to establish a right-wing dictatorship; both tried to use Hitler. Big mistake! Many of the bloodied generation of (Reactive) young adults wanted no war; Hitler's Nazis wanted to settle things once and for all. The warmongers won.
Hitler made the Idealist generation irrelevant and powerless. We all know about his lack of a moral compass, don't we? Yet he could moralize as much as anyone else. Except as younger participants in politicized militias and youth groups they could not rule anything. They would get pageantry and discipline as a substitute for moral direction.
The few German Civics who, like Sophie Scholl and Claus von Stauffenberg disobeyed when things went bad at the end, would pay the ultimate price. Most did as they were told to do, and the German soldier usually acted with consummate heroism. Such German Reactives who performed as Reactives usually do -- Rommel and Guderian -- served their Fuhrer well for as long as they could. But there was no moral leadership, and the evil that the Nazis did would create fifth columns of partisans.
One Nazi leader once said (this is not an exact quote, but it is a rough translation, anyway):
"In the old days we would ask what was right and wrong. Now we need only know what the Fuhrer tells us to do".
Some even found that 'liberating'.
Right and wrong, the conscience, old morality -- those are all terribly inconvenient at times, but they are often all that keeps us away from the abyss.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 05-05-2009 at 01:26 AM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
[quote=Chas'88;267739]But that would just create "holes" in the thread, and holes need to be filled.
Meinen Vorfahren waren in seiner Worte nicht, aber Auschwitz in seiner Worte war.
Babelfish translates the above to
"My ancestors were not in its words, but Auschwitz in its words was."
German isn't user friendly.~Chas'88 (whose German grammar isn't the best of things)
"Utom så denne skulle rättvis skapa "hålen" inne om tråd , och hålen behov till vara fyllt. The literal translation is funny.
Utom : But
så : as
denne: Have "that" match hole as far as gender.
skull : should
rättvis: just
skapa : breedor create
hålen the holes (the articles of "the" or "a" are suffixes)
och: and (easy)
behov: need (similar to behoove in English)
till: to
vara: be (similar to English was/were. Be is a major CF. in English...
fyllt : filled.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP
There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."
That wasn't what I was worried about, but no matter it's all over with.
Welche Sprache ist dass?
So Transhuman vs. Bio Conservative... hmm which to choose? Well my Sci-Fi story takes place after the Transhumans have already won and is about how the government manipulates people because of it... so I think my position is clear.
I guess I'm gonna be a Bio Conservative.
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
I agree with that statement.
If so, then the Left's anti-Christian bias will, in coming decades, come into head-on conflict with their desire for racial diversity.
My older brother is gay, and is of the set in stone opinion that the only thing certain Roman Emperors (Nero, Domitian, Trajan, Marcus Aurelius, Decius, Valerian, Diocletian, Galerius, Maximin Daia, Julian the Apostate) did wrong IRT Christianity was their failure to achieve the desired goal. Constantine I and Theodosius I, OTOH, he regards as having been the worst people to wear the Imperial purple, for daring to reverse that policy.
This tells me that if he thought that Christianity could be destroyed now, in our time, he'd be all for it.
Last edited by SVE-KRD; 05-05-2009 at 08:07 AM.
Could this 4T end up giving us the worst of both of the above scenarios?
Boomers are still trying to wage their culture wars, as furiously as ever, and right now look like being rendered irrelevant by GenX too early - with nobody to blame but themselves, for forcing GenX (and Millies) to act thus.
Last edited by SVE-KRD; 05-05-2009 at 08:18 AM.
*cough* Transhuman Space. *cough*
You cannot step twice into the same river, for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you. -- Heraclitus
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. -- Jiddu Krishnamurti
Do I contradict myself? Very well, then, I contradict myself. I am large; I contain multitudes." -- Walt Whitman
Arkham's Asylum
Well, all that says is that there are anti-religious zealots of all sexual orientations.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008
At one with the fishes as well
Actually, why stop there? I think bio engineered humans who can live in the oceans would be a good thing (TM).
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP
There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."
I think the simple => precise is more a matter of how defined or undefined we want our world. That's the way I read it, but I may be wrong; I'm learning this too. Precise doesn't have to be complex, just exacting. In fact, complex often means muddled. Simple, on the other hand, can be Precise, so that's the one that may need a different term ... assuming I know what I'm talking about of course.
The different speeds have to do with movement along the Arc of Acceptability. If I understand this, the constellation remains static between social moments, so just prior to a 2T or a 4T, the constellation moves to its next position by rotating 45 degree CW. At the point when the rotation occurs, or shortly after that, the active center is also at the far CW position on the Arc or Acceptability. During the 2T or 4T, the active center retrogrades CCW to the opposite end of the Arc (180 degrees), then reverses in the 1T or 3T, and begins its next CW movement. As it nears the end of the arc, the constellation shifts again, and the added 45 degrees (for a total of 225 degrees) is traversed by the active center as the 1T or 3T ends. The 2T or 4T retrograde CCW movement then begins again.
Between social moments, the active center moves -180 + 225 = 45 degrees. It balances
Last edited by Marx & Lennon; 05-05-2009 at 02:08 PM.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
