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Thread: Political Archetypes - Page 21







Post#501 at 07-22-2011 06:48 PM by Hutch74 [at Wisconsin joined Mar 2010 #posts 1,008]
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Interesting discussion regarding 'grey champion'. Whether it is in the form of a 'leader' (Eric) or 'generation' (Rush), I suppose I tend to agree we're still too early for any type of proper leadership and those willing to follow. Its like 1931 and we're still arguing about how we got here and what to do about it.

I admit I'm a bit averse to Erics astrology, all the same I tend to agree with him on some of the dates. I will say it depresses me to read he thinks we'll be in this crisis until 2027. I was thinking on July 4th that if we could just get to the 250th birthday (July 4, 2026), we'd be free from this crisis.

History obviously has yet to happen,but I've considered whether we'll go through a combination of the weak leadership of the 1850s combined with the economic troubles of the 1930s all to come to a head sometime near 2020 at which point the grey champion (whether as a leader or as a group) will finally get its act together. I guess we'll see.

Stay tuned the next 15 years.







Post#502 at 07-22-2011 06:55 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Because I don't go as far as you do, and recognize along with all historians that these leaders contributed to the successful resolution of the crisis of their times.
You seem to think that I feel they were utterly unimportant. That's not correct. I think we can have leadership as competent and capable as the REAL Lincoln or Roosevelt. I just don't think we can have leadership as perfect as the MYTHS of these leaders. Or that we ever did. And since that's what some people on this forum mean by "The Gray Champion," I consider that a poisonous, self-destructive question.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
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Post#503 at 07-23-2011 08:43 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Quote Originally Posted by Hutch74 View Post
I will say it depresses me to read he thinks we'll be in this crisis until 2027. I was thinking on July 4th that if we could just get to the 250th birthday (July 4, 2026), we'd be free from this crisis.History obviously has yet to happen,but I've considered whether we'll go through a combination of the weak leadership of the 1850s combined with the economic troubles of the 1930s all to come to a head sometime near 2020 at which point the grey champion (whether as a leader or as a group) will finally get its act together. I guess we'll see.
Proposed time line:4T Crisis of 20301T Peace of Exhaustion2T Apollo type?3T4T Crisis of 2110







Post#504 at 07-23-2011 09:05 PM by 92man [at Florida joined Feb 2011 #posts 513]
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Quote Originally Posted by TimWalker View Post
Proposed time line:4T Crisis of 20301T Peace of Exhaustion2T Apollo type?3T4T Crisis of 2110
Well in Generations, the authors tell of a crisis occurring in or around the year of 2020. And sometimes before or during 2025, well pass through a new gate similar to the Civil War and WWll. At that point, we'll move forward to the 1T High which probably be around 2025-2030 since the current era began in 2008. I think the High will begin around 2027 like the poster above said. But the years of around 2022-2026/7 ish will be like 1941-1945, with a rushed feeling of doing and solving and working things out.
Last edited by 92man; 07-23-2011 at 09:14 PM.
1992 Millie







Post#505 at 07-24-2011 02:18 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Post#506 at 10-05-2012 09:05 AM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Trying to figure out which mega-saeculum thread this tidbit of info should go with, and I think I like this one best since it deals with the way that the public mood and the "center" of public debate tends to shift across different lifespans. On to the Wikipedia ripping:

This is called the "Law of Social Cycle," propounded by the Indian philosopher and spiritual leader Prabhat Rainjan Sarkar in the 1950s and expanded by Ravi Batra since the 1970s,[1] Johan Galtung and Sohail Inayatullah since the 1990s[2] and others.
Like the saeculum, there are four archetypes and four social epochs. However, this cycle deals with changes that take place on a larger timescale like a mega-saeculum.

Groups of each type of people make up the social classes in society. Sarkar simplifies society into four classes, divided by inherent traits:

  • Warriors defend the nation and keep the peace;
  • Intellectuals develop our ideas about the world, in the form of religion, art, law and new inventions;
  • Acquisitors manage the practical aspects of life, including farms, factories, financial institutions and stores;
  • Laborers do the routine work, waiting tables, collecting trash, and other low-tech, low skill jobs.
In the warrior epoch (mega-high), soldiers unite, defend, and bring discipline to a newly established nation.

In the intellectualist epoch (mega-awakening), academics and thinkers create new laws, seek social justice, and enjoy a relative abundance of art and material wealth.

In the acquisitor epoch (mega-unraveling), traders and commercial interests begin to dominate the mundane aspects of society. Little changes, but great fortunes are made at the expense of labor.

In the final epoch (mega-crisis), the common laborers rise up to overthrow the acquisitor's rule and leave the nation in chaos - ripe to be reorganized by a new military power.


One thing to note: recent history from Latin America suggests the final epoch can be skipped altogether if the military decides to take on the acquisitors directly. And if not, the laborer's epoch is still the least stable and most short-lived of all.

Thoughts?
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#507 at 04-28-2013 06:36 AM by Einzige [at Illinois joined Apr 2013 #posts 824]
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The "Arc of Respectability" is definitely moving away from "True Right" deferential types, even in the GOP. I mean, these are big-name, billionaire donors. They virtually define 'respectability'.

http://news.yahoo.com/conservative-l...050802280.html

ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) — A national group of prominent GOP donors that supports gay marriage is pouring new money into lobbying efforts to get Republican lawmakers to vote to make it legal.

American Unity PAC was formed last year to lend financial support to Republicans who bucked the party's longstanding opposition to gay marriage. Its founders are launching a new lobbying organization, American Unity Fund, and already have spent more than $250,000 in Minnesota, where the Legislature could vote on the issue as early as next week.


The group has spent $500,000 on lobbying since last month, including efforts in Rhode Island, Delaware, Indiana, West Virginia and Utah.


Billionaire hedge fund manager and Republican donor Paul Singer launched American Unity PAC. The lobbying effort is the next phase as the push for gay marriage spreads to more states, spokesman Jeff Cook-McCormac told The Associated Press.


"What you have is this network of influential Republicans who really want to see the party embrace the freedom to marry, and believe it's not only the right thing for the country but also good politics," Cook-McCormac said.


In Minnesota, the money has gone to state groups that are lobbying Republican lawmakers and for polling on gay marriage in a handful of suburban districts held by Republicans. So far, only one Minnesota Republican lawmaker has committed to voting to legalize gay marriage: Sen. Branden Petersen, of Andover.


"I think there will be some more. There are legislators out there that are struggling with this," said Carl Kuhl, a former political aide to former GOP Sen. Norm Coleman and Republican gubernatorial candidate Tom Emmer. Kuhl's public affairs firm is contracted by Minnesotans United, the lead lobby group for gay marriage in Minnesota and main recipient of American Unity's Minnesota spending.


Gay marriage's fate in Minnesota may rest with the House, where support is seen as shakier than in the Senate. A handful of votes from Republicans could put it over the top. Nearly two dozen House Republicans represent more socially moderate suburbs and might be candidates to vote yes.


House Speaker Paul Thissen, DFL-Minneapolis, said he has encouraged advocates of the marriage bill to round up Republican votes, if nothing else than to send a message to Minnesota residents that it's not a partisan proposition. But that will be politically risky; the main opposition group to same-sex marriage, Minnesota for Marriage, has said it will seek consequences for Republicans who stray on gay marriage.


Part of American Unity PAC's original mission was to spend money on behalf of Republican gay marriage supporters. Many GOP lawmakers have faced primary challenges funded in part by anti-gay marriage groups such as the National Organization for Marriage, which argue that the lawmakers had betrayed the party's core principles.


Since forming the lobby group last month, American Unity also spent money to win over Republican lawmakers in Rhode Island, where last week all five Republicans in the state Senate jumped on the gay marriage bandwagon. Rhode Island is on track to legalize gay marriage by next week, which would make it the 11th U.S. state where gay marriage is legal.
Last edited by Einzige; 04-28-2013 at 06:40 AM.







Post#508 at 04-30-2013 12:05 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
George Washington(1732), according to Generational Theory, is considered a Nomad and thus excludes him from being an example of "a" Gray Champion. Benjamin Franklin(1706), being a Prophet, would qualify; His actions during the Philadelphia Convention being an example of how "a" GC-dynamic plays-out.

Prince

PS:IMHO.
Ahem...



~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 04-30-2013 at 12:13 AM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#509 at 04-30-2013 12:23 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Trying to figure out which mega-saeculum thread this tidbit of info should go with, and I think I like this one best since it deals with the way that the public mood and the "center" of public debate tends to shift across different lifespans. On to the Wikipedia ripping:



Like the saeculum, there are four archetypes and four social epochs. However, this cycle deals with changes that take place on a larger timescale like a mega-saeculum.


In the warrior epoch (mega-high), soldiers unite, defend, and bring discipline to a newly established nation.

In the intellectualist epoch (mega-awakening), academics and thinkers create new laws, seek social justice, and enjoy a relative abundance of art and material wealth.

In the acquisitor epoch (mega-unraveling), traders and commercial interests begin to dominate the mundane aspects of society. Little changes, but great fortunes are made at the expense of labor.

In the final epoch (mega-crisis), the common laborers rise up to overthrow the acquisitor's rule and leave the nation in chaos - ripe to be reorganized by a new military power.


One thing to note: recent history from Latin America suggests the final epoch can be skipped altogether if the military decides to take on the acquisitors directly. And if not, the laborer's epoch is still the least stable and most short-lived of all.

Thoughts?
You leave out the religious and spiritual element, which was the main driver of Awakenings among saecula.

You are talking about "mega-saecula," so I can't really say more, since I don't see them happening in history, or any correlating events that fit them.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#510 at 11-24-2013 08:25 PM by Einzige [at Illinois joined Apr 2013 #posts 824]
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Attn: Kurt Horner -

Do you still believe in the validity of your theory given recent political events?

It seems to me like it's shaping up to be quite accurate, almost literally so.







Post#511 at 11-25-2013 06:43 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
Attn: Kurt Horner -

Do you still believe in the validity of your theory given recent political events?

It seems to me like it's shaping up to be quite accurate, almost literally so.
Kurt’s been absent from discussions for a long time, but he does check-in on the forum once in a while. I agree with your observations, but you should also remember that nothing in Kurt’s model is static. The true right is disappearing, and a libertarian right is emerging, to be followed by the libertarian left in due course.

The action can come now or during the 2T. If it’s the 2T, then the libertarian left will set the agenda for the true liberals to follow
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#512 at 01-30-2014 08:56 PM by hkq999 [at joined Dec 2013 #posts 214]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
\
You are a good, obedient, well programmed Boomer robot. And I don't (entirely) mean that as an insult here. It's arguably your lot in life. That's why, if the book is correct, the next 2T will involve you being challenged in areas that are incomprehensible to you. Just as it was unthinkable on the part of GIs that youths would resist serving in war, after they had so obediently and unthinkingly done the bidding of their Prophet masters (i.e. FDR).

\



Weren't the GIs initially against going to war? I thought that Pearl Harbor was the big push needed. By the way, not all of us are boomer robots. I can definitely see an anti-gay backlash some time in the future...maybe in twenty or thirty years by some new generation, especially if current militant pro-gay trends continue.







Post#513 at 01-30-2014 09:04 PM by hkq999 [at joined Dec 2013 #posts 214]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I'd think the new Prophets will be more like Rag, Arkham, and Ska, on the libertarian left, more then anything else. With "Science of Complex Systems" being the new "Natural Law". Thus the next culture wars will essentially be between the defenders of "Order" (the old Liberalism of this saeculum) and the supporters of "Complex Systems Science" claiming that such complex rules are not needed.

But as rules become simplified it will start to leave many floundering and disoriented and will start to look for some "trusted authority" to guide them, be it political, religious, or technocratic. These authorities become institutionalized and start increasing the complexity and precision of the rules, and thus the cycle continues

Unless this current crisis ends with a libertarian government for the new high. I can see signs of it.







Post#514 at 01-30-2014 11:54 PM by hkq999 [at joined Dec 2013 #posts 214]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Branching off on American High = Merrie England idea.

So I guess Rod Serling was our William Shakespeare in equivalency. Rod I usually consider to be Silentesque, but he was born on the GI side of the cusp & his influence on Television seems to be of a similar vein to Shakespeare's influence to Theatre, since Drama in this form was a relatively new concept in England at the time. Medieval morality plays had been popular for the longest time, but Shakespeare & other playwrights (including good ol' Ben Jonson) were pioneers in the new form of Drama.

Sorry, that thought just popped into my head out of nowhere... but maybe perhaps it just came from... The Twilight Zone...

~Chas'88


That would actually kind of make sense since they were both born into civic generations.







Post#515 at 01-31-2014 03:25 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by hkq999 View Post
Unless this current crisis ends with a libertarian government for the new high. I can see signs of it.
I have hopes instead that the crisis will result in forward progress, not regression; either to libertarianism or to anti-gay prejudice. Every other 4T has been progressive in its outcome; there are always regressives around in 4Ts, but that does not mean they will prevail.

The new high will likely be conservative in the sense of preserving the gains made in this 4T. Those gains will include the reversal of libertarianism, so predominant since Reagan, and a return instead to civic responsibility, and the gains in social liberation made since the late 1T and furthered in this 4T, as well as progress in energy conversion. Exciting advances will be made in technology and new kinds of industries and post-industries in the next 1T. Communication and transportation will change in unimaginable ways. Freedom will advance around the world, though not without more conflict.

The next 2T will greatly resemble the previous one, because a lot more liberation along similar lines is still needed: liberation from scientific narrowmindedness and tech worship, as well as from regional social-conservative prejudice; plus ecological conversion, global peace and prosperity processes, rebuilding of cities, communitarian activism, transformation of education, required corporate responsibility, mystical spiritual and human-potential movements, and revival of psycho-active arts and enhanced sensibility. In short, it will be the continued greening of our society.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#516 at 01-31-2014 04:49 AM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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What exactly is the "true right"?
Last edited by TimWalker; 01-31-2014 at 04:57 AM.







Post#517 at 01-31-2014 04:56 AM by hkq999 [at joined Dec 2013 #posts 214]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
I have hopes instead that the crisis will result in forward progress, not regression; either to libertarianism or to anti-gay prejudice. Every other 4T has been progressive in its outcome; there are always regressives around in 4Ts, but that does not mean they will prevail.

The new high will likely be conservative in the sense of preserving the gains made in this 4T. Those gains will include the reversal of libertarianism, so predominant since Reagan, and a return instead to civic responsibility, and the gains in social liberation made since the late 1T and furthered in this 4T, as well as progress in energy conversion. Exciting advances will be made in technology and new kinds of industries and post-industries in the next 1T. Communication and transportation will change in unimaginable ways. Freedom will advance around the world, though not without more conflict.

The next 2T will greatly resemble the previous one, because a lot more liberation along similar lines is still needed: liberation from scientific narrowmindedness and tech worship, as well as from regional social-conservative prejudice; plus ecological conversion, global peace and prosperity processes, rebuilding of cities, communitarian activism, transformation of education, required corporate responsibility, mystical spiritual and human-potential movements, and revival of psycho-active arts and enhanced sensibility. In short, it will be the continued greening of our society.

So I guess you don't agree with Kurt that we will be entering a libertarian phase at the end of this crisis? Hmm...so essentially you see the next prophets as ultra-hippies? That would be interesting.







Post#518 at 01-31-2014 12:12 PM by Kepi [at Northern, VA joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,664]
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I tend to agree with this in general, but it's very general. For instance I can definitely see us trending towards simplicity in law, but simplicity usually ensures that laws are more encompassing. So instead of banking regulations, which were implemented in the last saeculum, we could expect something more emphatic and over arching, but geared towards giving average people the greatest freedom? For instance a law prohibiting foreclosure once a person has 51% interest in their house or prohibitions on trading nonperishable futures? I could see it.

It also makes sense in terms of a mega saeculum representing a particular order. So the mega high is the dawning of the new order, it's simple, and non authoritarian. Then it goes through two cycles of increasing complexity, towards the end of the order people attempt to streamline the process and make it simpler because the excess complexity makes the system simultaneously two full of holes and too expensive to maintain. However, this being never enough to save it, this order falls to the next. I can totally see where this lines up fairly well within the way organizations tend to decay. Cool.







Post#519 at 02-01-2014 01:00 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by hkq999 View Post
So I guess you don't agree with Kurt that we will be entering a libertarian phase at the end of this crisis? Hmm...so essentially you see the next prophets as ultra-hippies? That would be interesting.
That's correct. 1T's are essentially communitarian. The next prophets may be ultra-hippies, but they will be taking things to the next steps, in practical ways too; not merely repeating the ways of the old hippies. The point is that since the last 2T was left unfinished, the next 2T will take it forward and fulfilling it in many ways. Some lessons will have been learned.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

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Post#520 at 02-01-2014 01:07 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Kepi View Post
I tend to agree with this in general, but it's very general. For instance I can definitely see us trending towards simplicity in law, but simplicity usually ensures that laws are more encompassing. So instead of banking regulations, which were implemented in the last saeculum, we could expect something more emphatic and over arching, but geared towards giving average people the greatest freedom? For instance a law prohibiting foreclosure once a person has 51% interest in their house or prohibitions on trading nonperishable futures? I could see it.
Might be good ideas.
It also makes sense in terms of a mega saeculum representing a particular order. So the mega high is the dawning of the new order, it's simple, and non authoritarian. Then it goes through two cycles of increasing complexity, towards the end of the order people attempt to streamline the process and make it simpler because the excess complexity makes the system simultaneously two full of holes and too expensive to maintain. However, this being never enough to save it, this order falls to the next. I can totally see where this lines up fairly well within the way organizations tend to decay. Cool.
Not quite. Since the previous 1T put a high premium on conformity, men in gray flannel suits working for faceless bosses, and keeping up with the Joneses, I'm not sure you can say a 1T is not authoritarian. Maybe some of the other 1Ts were less authoritarian, but I doubt it. The gilded age and the post-revolutionary age had their authoritarian aspects as well. It was the 2T in which people objected to too many rules and complex systems and wanted a simpler lifestyle, and in the 3T the best ideas of the 1T were undone, leaving the original communitarian order in tatters.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#521 at 02-01-2014 02:48 PM by Kepi [at Northern, VA joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,664]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
That's correct. 1T's are essentially communitarian. The next prophets may be ultra-hippies, but they will be taking things to the next steps, in practical ways too; not merely repeating the ways of the old hippies. The point is that since the last 2T was left unfinished, the next 2T will take it forward and fulfilling it in many ways. Some lessons will have been learned.
Unlikely. Hippies and hippie values are things Millennials would feel totally safe in ignoring. It would not bridge an era, nor would it change the course of a nation. I expect the next prophets to be staunch crusader types, which is something that would bother Millennials much in the way that the absurdity of the Boomers pestered the GIs. Basically, some sit ins and sit a rounds and do nothing just be mentality of the hippies won't bother the lazy, generally anti-interventionist, archivist Millennial generation. Someone breaking up their cool party with some serious business attitudes and attire would.

Don't think for a second hippies would do anything but bore a Millennial power structure. A change from the mentality from "it's been 40 years since we sent our kids to fight a pointless war" to "hey, when's the last time we won a war?" would. Crusading formal orthodox hawks; there's the next 2T.







Post#522 at 02-01-2014 03:12 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Kepi View Post
Unlikely. Hippies and hippie values are things Millennials would feel totally safe in ignoring. It would not bridge an era, nor would it change the course of a nation. I expect the next prophets to be staunch crusader types, which is something that would bother Millennials much in the way that the absurdity of the Boomers pestered the GIs. Basically, some sit ins and sit a rounds and do nothing just be mentality of the hippies won't bother the lazy, generally anti-interventionist, archivist Millennial generation. Someone breaking up their cool party with some serious business attitudes and attire would.

Don't think for a second hippies would do anything but bore a Millennial power structure. A change from the mentality from "it's been 40 years since we sent our kids to fight a pointless war" to "hey, when's the last time we won a war?" would. Crusading formal orthodox hawks; there's the next 2T.
Not a chance. Cosmic cycles virtually guarantee another 2T like the last one, and BTW like every other 2T; not something like you're describing that is totally different from any other 2T that has ever happened. It may be that the next prophets won't bother Millennials as much; I expect the next 2T to be less oppositional and confrontational anyway; I expect a more peaceful century in fact, and have written this decades ago. There may be crusades, but that's just like the Boomers and Silents in the last 2T too. The hippies and other sixties radicals may have been outspoken and careless, but little they did or said was "absurd;" that's just your view, and it is mistaken; and btw shows the difference between my prophet orientation and your nomad/civic orientation. That will play out again in the next 2T, between you and the next prophets. What you consider absurd from the sixties and 70s, will be repeated again, and your reaction to it presages what your reaction to it will be again in the 2040s and 50s.

The Milllennials (and cuspers like yourself) have fallen heavily back into a materialist worldview, with its lack of curiosity and wonder about life, and its obsession with economic issues. Once they achieve economic gains, they could be quite eager to defend the materialist established order and corporate or bureaucratic lifestyles. I don't see Millies as "lazy" either, now or later. By late middle age, Millies will be somewhat conformist and status-oriented civics rather than cool partiers. To redirect those priorities would be exactly another hippie movement.

I also expect the Millies, though perhaps not interventionist or warlike, to be very activist in early middle age (during the late 4T and 1T), and heavily focused on infrastructure and tech advancement. This again will not feel right to the next young prophets. The Matrix could be looming, and the alpha-wavers will want OUT! But it's quite possible that there won't be an anti-war movement in the next 2T, or a need for one; I'm not sure about that one though. But I have never seen that in my crystal ball. I DO see that possibility around 2026 though.

I DO see a crusading mentality taking hold in the 2120s. That looks like the next 2T after the next one.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#523 at 02-01-2014 03:41 PM by Kepi [at Northern, VA joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,664]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Might be good ideas.


Not quite. Since the previous 1T put a high premium on conformity, men in gray flannel suits working for faceless bosses, and keeping up with the Joneses, I'm not sure you can say a 1T is not authoritarian. Maybe some of the other 1Ts were less authoritarian, but I doubt it. The gilded age and the post-revolutionary age had their authoritarian aspects as well. It was the 2T in which people objected to too many rules and complex systems and wanted a simpler lifestyle, and in the 3T the best ideas of the 1T were undone, leaving the original communitarian order in tatters.
That conformity was informally, not formally imposed though. I'd say our 3T was more authoritarian in terms of formal rules and regulations than our last 1T. Nobody made anyone wear a gray suit, just everyone did for so long it became extreme to do anything else. That's not authoritarian, that's just extreme conformity. Boring, granted, but nobody was forced to do so under the threat of a penalty.







Post#524 at 02-01-2014 05:02 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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02-01-2014, 05:02 PM #524
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Quote Originally Posted by Kepi View Post
That conformity was informally, not formally imposed though. I'd say our 3T was more authoritarian in terms of formal rules and regulations than our last 1T. Nobody made anyone wear a gray suit, just everyone did for so long it became extreme to do anything else. That's not authoritarian, that's just extreme conformity. Boring, granted, but nobody was forced to do so under the threat of a penalty.
Why was the recent 3T authoritarian? Lots of countries became democratic in our recent 3T. What formal rules and regulations? Political correctness? Helmet laws and such? Stricter parenting of millennials? Not exactly authoritarian; that's exaggerating. In government, of course, it was libertarian; allowing big business to do what it wants and avoid taxes. Dog eat dog.

In the 1T, rules and regulations were quite formal. Many of them prohibited the behavior and associations that people insisted on breaking through in the 2T. Segregration, anti-homosexuality, repression of mental illness, blacklisting of supposed communists, loyalty oaths, etc.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#525 at 02-01-2014 09:33 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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02-01-2014, 09:33 PM #525
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
That's correct. 1T's are essentially communitarian.
That's gonna suck [for me at least]. [Unless pot is allowed to be planted in community gardens, that is.]

Hemp should replace cotton,'cause hemp doesn't need pesticides near as much.

The next prophets may be ultra-hippies, but they will be taking things to the next steps, in practical ways too; not merely repeating the ways of the old hippies. The point is that since the last 2T was left unfinished, the next 2T will take it forward and fulfilling it in many ways. Some lessons will have been learned.
So the stars indicate the next up nomads won't be panning the next prophets as much? I'm sorta thinking that the Lost didn't pan the Missonaries near as much as Xer's pan Boomers.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."
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