Originally Posted by ASB65

I was talking to my late sister's husband yesterday. He is 55 years old and is an manager for an organization that provides retraining and job placement to low income workers. They also help with assistance on putting together resumes, coaching on job interviewing, and even clothes for people to wear on job interviews if necessary. To me this seems like a pretty valuable agency especially in this day and age. He has been at his at his job for close to 20 years now, but now he is terribly worried his office closing down due to budget cuts. He has already had to layoff several employees which he just feels sick about, and he is worried about his own job. Plus has reached the age that a lot employers find undesirable to employ...and he still has ten more years before he is eligible for social security. He also has a son in college now.

So if his agency closes down, not only is there little prospects for him, but also no help for all the other people that it serves.

I may PM you on this one later, but your brother-in-law's cohorts are one slice of the bread in this sandwich economy where so may folks 55 and over can no longer get jobs even though it makes no sense these days when employers often consider one too expensive after even five or six years. A far cry from the way it was in our parents' time. The other slice of the bread belongs to the young people out of high school and even college who also can't find jobs because of their lack of experience to put on a resume. When I first started out one didn't even need a resume unless you had top management experience. Now you need one even if you have just swept the floors. Hate to think where this is all headed, but it may eventually dwarf the malaise of the Great Depresssion because of a grievous trifecta consisting of a much larger population, the number of jobs lost to both automation and outsourcing, and vastly increased lifestyle expectations.

I know it's been awhile since this has been discussed, but why do people feel the need to compare time periods to each other? Each saeculum was described as hugely different in comparison to others. Also why do people underestimate the 10s in terms of culture? People look at the turn of the century from a very nostalgic perspective. When I first saw Titanic, the Gilded/Victorian influence was something I always saw as beautiful and elegant. I always saw the 10s as beautiful and elegant from a cultural perspective and the 20s as the destruction of that. (Despite loving 20s culture)

If I had to pick the maximum years that our "interbellum" aka first wave civics will be most nostalgic for it would probably like somewhere between 1992-1997. This would have been the years that the first wave civics were children for the most time and were culturally influenced by the most. It was very atmospheric if we take into account the New Jack Swing movement and the grunge movement. Listening to songs with both hideous and melodic feedback, the strange and eclectic sense of fashion and decor.

A lot of first wave Yers are very nostalgic for the sounds of grunge and early hip hop.

The feedback/E bow solo are especially atmospheric in this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mn-3EqaO0E

So the First wave civics, Generation Y, will be more nostalgic for this type of music which will probably be seen as quaint by older generations. Just thinking about what the 80s born cohorts are nostalgic for as opposed to the 89+ cohorts when it comes to the 90s, it's just completely different. They're more nostalgic for the millennium, 97-03 cultural era, which was more like the 00s. As for what will be remembered? I mean that's kind of up for grabs, I guess it depends. The interbellum were a very silent generational group. The GIs were simply louder, more dominant. I think Yers need to get some confidence and a voice.

The core civics, Millennials will be more nostalgic for this type of music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqV7DB8Iwg

The 1990s look about as plain as the 1910s did, yes they looked plain in terms of fashion, but if you think about what exactly was going on musically (ragtime, parlor tunes, and some early pop standards from Irving Berlin) they weren't plain at all. The 90s and 10s was a very "theoretical time" in my opinion because the prophets are supposedly thinkers rather than doers. So naturally their era of maximum power would be an era of ideas, "what could be." Little physical change occurred until the nomads entered the scene and physically rebelled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJOy4YstAyU

Just imagine hearing this to a full orchestra of full clarity. It must have been really affective and moving for the interbellum as young kids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLjTRY9Fr-I

Ragtime has this simultaneous melancholy and absolute manic joy to it.

We underestimate this period culturally and don't realize just how influenced by these ideas we are. This was the introduction of the ideas of jazz, but the 20s saw the mass mainstreaming of jazz. So we always associate the 20s with Jazz, rather than the 10s. Everyone was playing jazz in the 20s and I could see the interbellum and Lost having a visceral reaction to that after awhile. Baby Rosemarie (child star of the 20s and 30s) used to sing old pop standards in the style of jazz! (a little kid singing jazz? Is that appropriate? Think of the mass reaction to kids singing RnB songs today.)

Then we also had music like Stravinsky, Ravel, very experimental composers who were creating some of the most bizarre and yet pleasurable instrumental pieces ever created.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrOJcEHXYWM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I3ypDAOWM4

I never would have been aware of just how brilliant this period was musically and culturally if I had not been a musician. I played a lot of these pieces in bands. Also note how influential some of these instrumental compositions are on 20th century music scores.

As for the 2010s, I kind of see them as similar to the 30s because the 30s were really about the further fragmentation of culture and politics. There is no identifiable culture from the 1930s, what is identifiable about the decade is the great depression and the setting of the stage for WW2. So we should try to look at the 2010s that way. What things are occurring right now that could set the stage for the new crisis war.

Originally Posted by Felix5

I know it's been awhile since this has been discussed, but why do people feel the need to compare time periods to each other? Each saeculum was described as hugely different in comparison to others. Also why do people underestimate the 10s in terms of culture? People look at the turn of the century from a very nostalgic perspective. When I first saw Titanic, the Gilded/Victorian influence was something I always saw as beautiful and elegant. I always saw the 10s as beautiful and elegant from a culture perspective and the 20s as the destruction of that. (Despite loving 20s culture)

If I had to pick the maximum years that our "interbellum" aka first wave civics will be most nostalgic for it would probably like somewhere between 1992-1997. This would have been the years that the first wave civics were children for the most time and were culturally influenced by the most. It was very atmospheric if we take into account the New Jack Swing movement and the grunge movement. Listening to songs with both hideous and melodic feedback, the strange and eclectic sense of fashion and decor.

A lot of first wave Yers are very nostalgic for the sounds of grunge and early hip hop.

The feedback/E bow solo are especially atmospheric in this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mn-3EqaO0E

So the First wave civics, Generation Y, will be more nostalgic for this type of music which will probably be seen as quaint by older generations. Just thinking about what the 80s born cohorts are nostalgic for as opposed to the 89+ cohorts when it comes to the 90s, it's just completely different. They're more nostalgic for the millennium, 97-03 cultural era, which was more like the 00s. As for what will be remembered? I mean that's kind of up for grabs, I guess it depends. The interbellum were a very silent generational group. The GIs were simply louder, more dominant. I think Yers need to get some confidence and a voice.

The core civics, Millennials will be more nostalgic for this type of music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqV7DB8Iwg

The 1990s look about as plain as the 1910s did, yes they looked plain in terms of fashion, but if you think about what exactly was going on musically (ragtime, parlor tunes, and some early pop standards from Irving Berlin) they weren't plain at all. The 90s and 10s was a very "theoretical time" in my opinion because the prophets are supposedly thinkers rather than doers. So naturally their era of maximum power would be an era of ideas, "what could be." Little physical change occurred until the nomads entered the scene and physically rebelled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJOy4YstAyU

Just imagine hearing this to a full orchestra of full clarity. It must have been really affective and moving for the interbellum as young kids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLjTRY9Fr-I

Ragtime has this simultaneous melancholy and absolute manic joy to it.

We underestimate this period culturally and don't realize just how influenced by these ideas we are. This was the introduction of the ideas of jazz, but the 20s saw the mass mainstreaming of jazz. So we always associate the 20s with Jazz, rather than the 10s. Everyone was playing jazz in the 20s and I could see the interbellum and Lost having a visceral reaction to that after awhile. Baby Rosemarie (child star of the 20s and 30s) used to sing old pop standards in the style of jazz! (a little kid singing jazz? Is that appropriate? Think of the mass reaction to kids singing RnB songs today.)

Then we also had music like Stravinsky, Ravel, very experimental composers who were creating some of the most bizarre and yet pleasurable instrumental pieces ever created.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrOJcEHXYWM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I3ypDAOWM4

I never would have been aware of just how brilliant this period was musically and culturally if I had not been a musician. I played a lot of these pieces in bands. Also note how influential some of these instrumental compositions are on 20the century music scores.

I'm definitely NOT a Y-Cusper, then. My "nostalgia" years are 1997-2000.

Originally Posted by Odin

I'm definitely NOT a Y-Cusper, then. My "nostalgia" years are 1997-2000.

I have no nostalgia years. I have certain times in my life that I look back on fondly for situational reasons. For example, I loved the period of my life when my kids were babies and toddlers. Or I had a great time when I was young and single and on my own for the first time. But these are not tied to calendar years or what was happening historically or culturally at the time, but more of what was going on personally in my life. I have never had the thought of "Those were the good old days" about certain time periods. I wonder if that's just me, or if there are other people who feel that way. Not that I think the past decades were necessarily bad, but none of them seem anymore superior than the other.

I'm definitely NOT a Y-Cusper, then. My "nostalgia" years are 1997-2000.

I would't say Yers are cuspers, they're just a weird generational group like Jonesers, that feel out of place. It apparently extends up to 1988, which is pretty far away from 1981. I had a cousin born in 1981 and I always perceived his childhood as a different generation. So I don't feel like a cusper, but I don't feel like a core Millennial either.

Also, there are some people born in the 80s, who look at those years nostalgically. I do personally, but for different reasons. When I think of "The 90s" I think of either New Jack Swing or grunge/post grunge. I think of angst, darkness, crime, rebelliousness. It was more of an introverted time, like the culture of the 1910s. There was a lot of substance, but not much surface.

When I think of the millennium period 97-03, I think of happy, poppy, light, extroverted culture, but without much substance. I think of it as a separate period that wasn't really 90s, but apparently not 00s either. (Since the 00s are being remembered for something different-late 00s culture.) When I think of the 00s I think of mid 00s culture, which was pretty politically stale (like everyone fell asleep after 9/11) but I also think of the early 00s (millennium era) too. I think the only barrier, being 9/11.

Originally Posted by Felix5

I'm definitely NOT a Y-Cusper, then. My "nostalgia" years are 1997-2000.

I would't say Yers are cuspers, they're just a weird generational group like Jonesers, that feel out of place. It apparently extends up to 1988, which is pretty far away from 1981. I had a cousin born in 1981 and I always perceived his childhood as a different generation. So I don't feel like a cusper, but I don't feel like a core Millennial either.

Also, there are some people born in the 80s, who look at those years nostalgically. I do personally, but for different reasons. When I think of "The 90s" I think of either New Jack Swing or grunge/post grunge. I think of angst, darkness, crime, rebelliousness. It was more of an introverted time, like the culture of the 1910s. There was a lot of substance, but not much surface.

When I think of the millennium period 97-03, I think of happy, poppy, light, extroverted culture, but without much substance. I think of it as a separate period that wasn't really 90s, but apparently not 00s either. (Since the 00s are being remember for something different-late 00s culture.) When I think of the 00s I think of mid 00s culture, which was pretty politically stale (like everyone fell asleep after 9/11) but I also think of the early 00s (millennium era) too. I think the only barrier, being 9/11.

In my personal experience 1986 is the first "Core Millie" birth year, I have no memory of Russia as "The USSR" and I relate more to late 80s cohorts than I do to early 80s cohorts. I have no memory of Daddy Bush as president.

I have no nostalgia years. I have certain times in my life that I look back on fondly for situational reasons. For example, I loved the period of my life when my kids were babies and toddlers. Or I had a great time when I was young and single and on my own for the first time. But these are not tied to calendar years or what was happening historically or culturally at the time, but more of what was going on personally in my life. I have never had the thought of "Those were the good old days" about certain time periods. I wonder if that's just me, or if there are other people who feel that way. Not that I think the past decades were necessarily bad, but none of them seem anymore superior than the other.

That's really interesting, I've noticed a lot of people born in the late 50s up until the mid 60s feel that way. My parents are not nostalgic for any type of culture, although they look back laughingly at their disco fashions and whatnot. In some cases they'll laugh about watching the Flintstones or buying ice cream for like 15 cents or something. Their childhood seemed to be a combo of the High and the Xer childhood from what I've heard of their stories. It's very odd. So some of their memories are from the high, but some childhood memories are also of the 60s/70s awakening era.

My mother also loved it when my brother and I were little, she used to talk about it all the time. "I miss when you guys were little!" She just loved doing "mom things" with us and saw this as the best time in her life. (even though it was incredibly difficult and exhausting for her since we were living on the poverty line and her childhood was much more ideal than that period.)

In my personal experience 1986 is the first "Core Millie" birth year, I have no memory of the Cold War amd I relate more to late 80s cohorts than I do to early 80s cohorts.

I have no memory of that either, but I kind of can't help but separate myself from the 89-91 cohorts. I think I brought up the idea of dominant and recessive birth years in another thread. Mid 80s cohorts always seemed to be a very dominant group and I think that's when the first traits of the "Millennial generation" are seen. The 81-83 cohorts, being a smaller generational come off as much more fragmented and individualistic. The mid 80s (my brother's cohort group) always came off as social butterflies. Then there's my cohort group 87/88, which I perceived as much more fragmented then the mid 80s and 89-91 group. 89-91 are also social butterflies and enjoy teamwork and all that millennial stuff.


I think population rise from 83-84 is very interesting and probably what separates your group. There's also child rearing and the fact that you don't really remember the 80s like they do. (I've noticed my brother tends to separate himself from the early 80s cohorts too though-specifically my 81 cohort cousin)

Originally Posted by Felix5

In my personal experience 1986 is the first "Core Millie" birth year, I have no memory of the Cold War amd I relate more to late 80s cohorts than I do to early 80s cohorts.

I have no memory of that either, but I kind of can't help but separate myself from the 89-91 cohorts. I think I brought up the idea of dominant and recessive birth years in another thread. Mid 80s cohorts always seemed to be a very dominant group and I think that's when the first traits of the "Millennial generation" are seen. The 81-83 cohorts, being a smaller generational come off as much more fragmented and individualistic. The mid 80s (my brother's cohort group) always came off as social butterflies. Then there's my cohort group 87/88, which I perceived as much more fragmented then the mid 80s and 89-91 group. 89-91 are also social butterflies and enjoy teamwork and all that millennial stuff.


I think population rise from 83-84 is very interesting and probably what separates your group. There's also child rearing and the fact that you don't really remember the 80s like they do. (I've noticed my brother tends to separate himself from the early 80s cohorts too though-specifically my 81 cohort cousin)

That's interesting, I get along very well with 89-91 cohorts.

That's interesting, I get along very well with 89-91 cohorts.

Oh I do too, it's just that I feel like each cohort group has its own personality and dominance. And the 89-91 cohorts probably share being large cohort groups and very extroverted, with the mid 80s cohorts. I honestly feel more of a connection to my early 80s born cousin in terms of personality and temperament, as well as a lot of early 80s born cohorts. (even if he's more of an Xer)

*keep in mind I'm talking more about each group as a social movement, rather than individual people in these groups.

Several psycological barriers may have been crossed in this month's jobs report. The U3 has fallen away from the nine percent level as it has come in at 8.6% this month. Also, the U6 has taken a tumble away from the sixteen percent mark and has come in at 15.6% this month.
However labor force participation has fallen from 64% to 62.6% and this no doubt has some impact on the lower U3 and U6 rates. There is actually a pretty good discussion about if the glass really is half full going on page 6 of the Good Economic news thread.

The NBA lock out is over and with the NFL marching towards another Packer Super Bowl vict--err make that the playoffs--the risk of revolution has been lowered another notch. We noware facing a simple and common winter of discontent.

Apparently the election in Egypt are going to result in a very Islamist outcome. As Eric wrote on another thread people throw off one set of chains and then freely vote themselves another set of chains to wear.

And in EU news the Herbert Hoover of this saeculum has been found. the name be Angela Merkl.
And this fact is likely to override any good economic news temporarally brightening America's holiday season.

The new year begins with the Iowa caucus just 3 days away. Polling has been all over the place but someone will get traction for the states to follow.

Some have suggested that 2011 may well be remembered as the year of the revolutions. The events of the last year, especially in north Africa suggests that someth9ing li9ke S and H's concept of the social moment is real and leads to a new path for the culture involved. But it does not guarantee good results nor happen in a vaccum. Much of north Africa may become Islamic theocratic states. A socila moment make possible change, but it will be change within what is inherent within the culture involved. There is no danger of America becoming an Islamic thecracy at the end of our current 4T but something less effective nad successful then 1945's America is possible.

One other note on new year's.
It is a new beginning and in keeping with the spirit it is my tradition to empty my ignore list on new year's day.
I don't like to use it often and it only had 2 people on it but as of now--it is empty and hopefully can stay so for the whole year. :

Illinois Senator Mark Kirk suffered a stroke on Jan. 22nd. It appears that he is undergoing a strong recovery.

In economic news, the U3 is down to 8.5% for January and the U6 is down to 15.2

The primary process is underway and as noted elsewhere on the forum the first three states, Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina have produced three different winners.
It may be wide open for a while.

In Europe the offical economic policy continues to be austerity and Europe continues to be mired in the downward spiral that economic Calvinism leads to.

The possible recovery of the US economy continues with the official (U3) unemployment rate down to 8.3% and the broader U6 now at 15.1%.

The GOP race to oppose Obama in the November election moves on to middle America where Rick Santorum scored three victories over front runner Mitt Romney last night in Missouri, Colorado and Minnesota. It is likely to be a very long race.

In a rematch of the 2008 Super Bowl the New York Giants once again defeated the New England Patriots. This time the score was 21 to 17.
As some have noted on other threads the feel of this year's football season finisher had for many, including me, a much more 4Tish feel to it.
I in particular found halftime commercial fitting.

In europe the leading advocate of austerity Sarkozy of France and Merkel of Germany are unpopular with national elections approaching.
We may well see "Hoover" get voted out of office twice.

Originally Posted by herbal tee

The possible recovery of the US economy continues with the official (U3) unemployment rate down to 8.3% and the broader U6 now at 15.1%.

The GOP race to oppose Obama in the November election moves on to middle America where Rick Santorum scored three victories over front runner Mitt Romney last night in Missouri, Colorado and Minnesota. It is likely to be a very long race.

In a rematch of the 2008 Super Bowl the New York Giants once again defeated the New England Patriots. This time the score was 21 to 17.
As some have noted on other threads the feel of this year's football season finisher had for many, including me, a much more 4Tish feel to it.
I in particular found halftime commercial fitting.

In europe the leading advocate of austerity Sarkozy of France and Merkel of Germany are unpopular with national elections approaching.
We may well see "Hoover" get voted out of office twice.

That commercial was very 4T and Madonna's performance felt like a retirement party for 3T pop singer values.

Originally Posted by herbal tee

The possible recovery of the US economy continues with the official (U3) unemployment rate down to 8.3% and the broader U6 now at 15.1%.

The GOP race to oppose Obama in the November election moves on to middle America where Rick Santorum scored three victories over front runner Mitt Romney last night in Missouri, Colorado and Minnesota. It is likely to be a very long race.

In a rematch of the 2008 Super Bowl the New York Giants once again defeated the New England Patriots. This time the score was 21 to 17.
As some have noted on other threads the feel of this year's football season finisher had for many, including me, a much more 4Tish feel to it.
I in particular found halftime commercial fitting.

In europe the leading advocate of austerity Sarkozy of France and Merkel of Germany are unpopular with national elections approaching.
We may well see "Hoover" get voted out of office twice.

Sarkozy is still French, so he's not quite a Teutonic Tight Ass^TM. I agree completely on Merkel.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

a Teutonic Tight Ass^TM. I agree completely on Merkel.

And apparently she's getting what she deserves.

Originally Posted by The Independent

Germany's economy slipped into reverse in the last quarter of 2011, with gross domestic product falling 0.2%, according to adjusted figures.

The drop in Europe's largest economy, reported by the Federal Statistical Office, was slightly less than the 0.25% that had been expected...

...The Economy Ministry in January cut the country's 2012 growth forecast from 1% to 0.7% - its second reduction in three months. As recently as October the prediction was 1.8%.

Bad economic policy=bad outcomes.

This month's U3 and U6 numbers.
Specifically, the U3 remains at 8.3% while the U6 did drop below the 15% mark to 14.9%.

The GOP race may be entering its final phase as Mitt Romney looks mathmatically stronger after his Illinois win tuesday night.

And in Syria there is still hope that another "revolution" will throw out an anti American secular dictator in favor of an Islamist dictator--who of course gets voted in to office in a so called free and open election. Go Syria.

Originally Posted by herbal tee

And in Syria there is still hope that another "revolution" will throw out an anti American secular dictator in favor of an Islamist dictator--who of course gets voted in to office in a so called free and open election. Go Syria.

I dedicate Won't Get fooled again to the Arab Spring. Just listen to the lyrics, nothing more to say.

And... Justin Bieber, eat your heart out, you'll never get this good.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

I dedicate Won't Get fooled Again to the Arab Spring. Just listen to the lyrics, nothing more to say.

And... Justin Bieber, eat your heart out, you'll never get this good.

Likely no-one will. Re. the new favorite song thread, my #1 on my rock list. Bravo.

Revolutions don't always fail, but it's always possible that the new boss will not be better than the old. I guess we just have to pray we don't get fooled again. I look on the song also as representing the process of history; the new regime and philosophy becomes the old one later, and we move on to the next revolution.

Islamist parties are not necessarily Islamic dictators though.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Likely no-one will. Re. the new favorite song thread, my #1 on my rock list. Bravo.

Looked at it, quite a few I like as well. I'll copy/paste those and stash them on the proper thread.

Revolutions don't always fail, but it's always possible that the new boss will not be better than the old. I guess we just have to pray we don't get fooled again. I look on the song also as representing the process of history; the new regime and philosophy becomes the old one later, and we move on to the next revolution.

True enough. The recent ones in E. Europe were pretty much a change for the better. Even Putin is no Stalin.

Islamist parties are not necessarily Islamic dictators though.

Yup, but when those purple fingers bring them to power, I know lots of folks here in the US who'll have a cow over the whole thing. I'm far more in favor of benign neglect of the Mideast since anytime we do stuff there, it tends to backfire.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

I dedicate Won't Get fooled again to the Arab Spring. Just listen to the lyrics, nothing more to say.

And... Justin Bieber, eat your heart out, you'll never get this good.

OH, I don't have to listen. I have those lyrics memorized, since they became more and more relevant as the saeculum wore on.

In almost a repeat of last year the recovery from the 2008 crash has at least partially stalled due to rising gas prices. Rather nr not the recovery itself can resume as it did last year will be a major determinant in the 2012 general election in November. For the record, the [urlhttp://www.portalseven.com/employment/unemployment_rate_u6.jsp] numbers [/url] are slightly better at 8.2 for the U3 and 14.5 for the U6.

Mitt Romney has largely wrapped up the GOP nomination.

The Supreme Court has heard the oral arguments on the ACA law aka "Obamacare." A ruling is expected in June. Will the SCOTUS continue to draw attention to itself as it did in the controversial Citizen's United ruling as a possible factor of the crises itself or not remains to be seen. This too could play into the choice made by voters as the election approaches as the president nominates, subject to Senate approval, all Supreme Court judges.

And in Europe austerity remains in place fueling talk of some nations, especially Greece, leaving the eurozone.