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Thread: Micro-Turnings - Page 5







Post#101 at 04-14-2010 04:33 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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I've updated the post to include more links looking further back into Broadway History:

The years indicate when the musical premiered on Broadway

Show Boat (1927) - Unraveling-crisis


Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5owzfuvE2k

The Girlfriend (1927) - Unraveling-crisis

The Girlfriend - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWvcQH79Uc4

(The type of entertainment that appealed to young GIs)

Rodgers & Hart Medley (spanning the late 1920s - early 1940s)

Medley - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qoHXCz33OQ

Anything Goes (1934) - Crisis-awakening

Blow Gabriel Blow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keixiITpUPU

("Documents" the reformation of a late-wave Lost generation character who wants to marry his darling little Interbellum sweetheart, and how he's reformed by his spunky Interbellum friend who is a girl--and has her eye on a British dandy.)

Oklahoma! (1941) - Crisis-crisis

Oklahoma! - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpNeHMlJiD4

Carousel (1945) - Crisis-crisis

You'll Never Walk Alone - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6V9EbnNx6U

(The above musicals show how family friendly, nationalistic, and optimistic the art had developed into.

Guys & Dolls (1950) - cusp between High-high & High-awakening

Sit Down You're Rockin' The Boat - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7kzsZreG0o

Adelaide's Lament - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCSl7rw4ERI

(Continues the earlier themes of reforming the older male population from the Lost/Nomad stereotypes. Only this time it's time for those core GI girls to bring those still slightly cynical Interbellums around. The lady "general" of the Salvation Army in this musical is a perfect example of a quite elderly Missionary in a High. It also shows just how much the Missionary generation's ideals are running out of steam.)

The Boy Friend (1954) - Crisis-awakening

The Boy Friend - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iIvSe2UxGM

(This I just threw in to show when the parody of all that Rodger & Hart music started occuring.)

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#102 at 04-15-2010 11:44 AM by BookishXer [at joined Oct 2009 #posts 656]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
I've updated the post to include more links looking further back into Broadway History:

The years indicate when the musical premiered on Broadway

Oklahoma! (1941) - Crisis-crisis

Oklahoma! - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpNeHMlJiD4

Carousel (1945) - Crisis-crisis

You'll Never Walk Alone - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6V9EbnNx6U

(The above musicals show how family friendly, nationalistic, and optimistic the art had developed into.

~Chas'88

I think I'm misunderstanding how you're using the arts to reflect the moods of the micro-turnings. I was assuming that the crises of the Turnings would be, as a 4T Crisis is, the dissolution of the old paradigm and establishment of the foundation for the new. So, in the case of a Crisis-crisis, the pieces of art most representative of that mood would be those that reflect the crumbling and battle to rebuild.

For example, The Sound of Music opened on Broadway in '59, the first year of the High-crisis. I'm not familiar with the stage show, so I'm basing this example on the film. Though also a love story, the backdrop was an event just prior to America's most recent Crisis-crisis, so the fears and the drives to eradicate enemies that threaten collective survival were magnified versions of what was happening in the mini-crisis of the High.

Am I making any sense??

That said, I wouldn't necessarily think of Oklahoma! as a typical Crisis-crisis production. Carousel might be, given its very dark history as a Hungarian-written tragedy about gypsies. I don't know that Carousel embodies the same brand of hope and sweeping musical pagentry as an Oklahoma! or Guys and Dolls.

Others I'm thinking of, then:

West Side Story (film)--High-crisis
Splendor in the Grass (film)--High-crisis







Post#103 at 04-15-2010 03:53 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by BookishXer View Post
I think I'm misunderstanding how you're using the arts to reflect the moods of the micro-turnings. I was assuming that the crises of the Turnings would be, as a 4T Crisis is, the dissolution of the old paradigm and establishment of the foundation for the new. So, in the case of a Crisis-crisis, the pieces of art most representative of that mood would be those that reflect the crumbling and battle to rebuild.

For example, The Sound of Music opened on Broadway in '59, the first year of the High-crisis. I'm not familiar with the stage show, so I'm basing this example on the film. Though also a love story, the backdrop was an event just prior to America's most recent Crisis-crisis, so the fears and the drives to eradicate enemies that threaten collective survival were magnified versions of what was happening in the mini-crisis of the High.

Am I making any sense??
TSM is a kind of hybrid in itself considering that it has the music by R&H, but the script is by Howard Lindsay & Russel Crouse.

Yes, your making sense. I have a lot more I want to say about what's in these musicals & the things being expressed through them. However I'm currently going through "hell week" of Die Fledermaus, so my posts are really shrinking and not up to my usual verboseness. I didn't really have a lot of time to make that update, but thanks for replying to make sure I'm not just talking to myself. I'm also discovering that I'm going to have to split my "Big Post" up in order to get everything I want expressed.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily think of Oklahoma! as a typical Crisis-crisis production. Carousel might be, given its very dark history as a Hungarian-written tragedy about gypsies. I don't know that Carousel embodies the same brand of hope and sweeping musical pagentry as an Oklahoma! or Guys and Dolls.

Others I'm thinking of, then:

West Side Story (film)--High-crisis
Splendor in the Grass (film)--High-crisis
Yes, but also with Oklahoma!, you have the Jud sequence where he very nearly kills Laurie and Curly before they have a chance to go off on their happy life, and his death really sobers the high spirits that belong to the ending of the musical. His death almost stops the action of the play, and manages to make the ending unrealistically happy.

Oklahoma! also is a mirror to Carousel. Oklahoma! ends on an unrealistically & forced happy note (well, he's dead, Curly killed him, let's just ignore that fact & pretend that that didn't happen & we'll be okay), while Carousel ends on more of a realistically happy note (yes, bad things have happened, but we can move on & find forgiveness and acceptance).

Also Carousel isn't the only piece to be white washed, Oklahoma! is based off of the 1931 play: Green Grow the Lilacs, which is about all of these actions taking place between some mixed blood White & Cherokee Native-Americans (let us not forget that Oklahoma prior to 1907 was called "Indian Territory")--it was also written by a 1/8th Cherokee-American. Curly's fate for having killed Jeeter (Jud) is left undecided at the end of that play, instead of being unbelievably swept aside at the end--there Jeeter's death stops the show. Also Will Parker is named, but never seen in GGL, unlike in Oklahoma! where he's a second lead, and comedic relief. So I'd say it's fairly safe to say that both Oklahoma! & Carousel have darker overtones that were edited by R&H.

Also, I'm looking more at when pieces were written than when they were turned into movies, because most of R&H golden musicals (State Fair [1945], Oklahoma! [1943 *I double checked & it was 1943, not 1941*], Carousel [1945], and South Pacific [1949]) were written in the 1940s, but were turned into movies in the 1950s. Although in certain cases, like West Side Story, you have a piece that's ahead of its time. West Side Story is a 1960s style of musical. WSS belongs more to the Kennedy Era than to the Eisenhower Era it was written & debuted in [1957-1958]. Eisenhower era musicals are more along the lines of: Kiss Me Kate, My Fair Lady, Damn Yankees, The Music Man, Bells Are Ringing, etc. They have more of a definite Lost & GI artistry. Kennedy era musicals are more GI & Silent artistry. WSS is a perfect example with everyone who wrote it, except the GI Bernstein composing the music, being a Silent.

~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 04-15-2010 at 04:00 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#104 at 04-16-2010 11:31 AM by BookishXer [at joined Oct 2009 #posts 656]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
However I'm currently going through "hell week" of Die Fledermaus, so my posts are really shrinking and not up to my usual verboseness.
Best of luck...or, if you're performing, break a leg.

Just a quick note regarding choosing works that were created during one period but were recreated in others: I think it's also telling of a national mood when an earlier work suddenly catches on in either a revival or separate medium.







Post#105 at 06-05-2010 05:45 PM by Otter [at joined Nov 2009 #posts 61]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
What I propose is that within Turnings there are mirco periods where there are 4 micro-turnings occurring within 1 Turning. Where the larger Turning would still have the general feeling of the Turning, but within that Turning there would be smaller waves of societal growth & development occurring on micro-levels that would ripple out and effect how society developed over the course of the Turning & thus the Saeculum.
I think the beauty of the Micro-Turnings Theory is it provides a predictive tool for future events. Because of this, the 2012-2013 start of the mini-Awakening period should be very important in determining the path to the current 4T outcome. The below (attempted) table might point towards the future Champion for the next Saeculum.


Saeculum…………………………….Revolutionary…………………………………Civil War…………………………………………Great Power……………………………………Millennial



Visionary………………………………Franklin…………………………………………Jacks on…………………………………………..T. Roosevelt……………………………………..Reagan
Prior Turning…………………………Awakening – Idealist……………………Compromise – Adaptive……………..….…Progressive – Adaptive…………………….G.I. - Civic



Antangonist/Goat………………….Lord North……………………….………….Buchanan………………………………..……....Ho over……………………………………………Obama(?)
Crisis Mini-High



Legal Milestone………………………Townsend Acts…………………..……..Dred Scott Decision……………........……Smoot-Hawley Act…………………………ObamaCare(?)
Crisis Mini-High………………………..(1767)………………………………………………(1857)…………… ……………………………….(1930)……………………………………………..(2010)



Emerging Movement………………Sons of Liberty…………………………………Abolitionists………………………………….Pro gressives……………………………………Tea Party(?)
Crisis Mini-High



Champion………………………………..Washington…………………………………….Lin coln……………………………………………F. Roosevelt…………………………………………..(?)
Crisis Mini-Awakening……………….(1775)………………………………………….(1861)…………… ………………………………….(1933)……………………………………………..(2013)
…………………………………………………Liberty – Reactive………………………….Transcendental – Idealist……………..Missionary – Idealist…………………………Boomer – Idealist (?)


Follow-on Saeculum………………….A Republic……………………………………Democrat………………………………………Socia l Democracy………………………………Libertarian(?)
Political Philosophy







Post#106 at 06-05-2010 08:06 PM by RanxeroxVox [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 112]
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West Side Story writer(s)

Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post

Also, I'm looking more at when pieces were written than when they were turned into movies... Although in certain cases, like West Side Story, you have a piece that's ahead of its time. West Side Story is a 1960s style of musical. WSS belongs more to the Kennedy Era than to the Eisenhower Era it was written & debuted in [1957-1958]. Eisenhower era musicals are more along the lines of: Kiss Me Kate, My Fair Lady, Damn Yankees, The Music Man, Bells Are Ringing, etc. They have more of a definite Lost & GI artistry. Kennedy era musicals are more GI & Silent artistry. WSS is a perfect example with everyone who wrote it, except the GI Bernstein composing the music, being a Silent.

~Chas'88
What about Shakespeare, considering West Side Story is based on Romeo and Juliet? He was a Elizabethan (Hero) generation, although close to the cusp.

The play (like the musical) also appears during a 1T, not long after the defeat of the Spanish Armada. This suggests to me that both are very much a product of their time.

RV







Post#107 at 06-05-2010 11:03 PM by BookishXer [at joined Oct 2009 #posts 656]
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Quote Originally Posted by Otter View Post
I think the beauty of the Micro-Turnings Theory is it provides a predictive tool for future events. Because of this, the 2012-2013 start of the mini-Awakening period should be very important in determining the path to the current 4T outcome. The below (attempted) table might point towards the future Champion for the next Saeculum.
I was interested in what you designated as Emerging Movements, Sons of Liberty, Abolishonists, Progressives...and Tea Party, and then connecting that to issues of the following Crises.

Truthfully, I admit that I've been shrugging off the Tea Party. As dialogue continues on this Forum, however, about Highs that are true Highs versus periods of Austerity, I can see a connection between today's present Tea Party movement and your prediction of Libertarianism/Austerity.

I'm not sure I'm ready to agree fully, but it's a notable connection.







Post#108 at 06-05-2010 11:34 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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But neither the Sons of Liberty, Abolishonists or the Progressives were demographically dominated by an elder prophet generation. They all had a multigenerational support base. The Tea Party is a one shot deal. Granted, if they somehow take over the US house this November, then the bottom will drop out of what little functionalism the US Congress has and all bets are off.
But barring that, the most likely outcome is their failure to live up to their perceived potential followed by their decline will be seen as part of the end of the old 3T way and the beginning of the new paradigm.
Last edited by herbal tee; 06-05-2010 at 11:46 PM.







Post#109 at 06-05-2010 11:52 PM by BookishXer [at joined Oct 2009 #posts 656]
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Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
But neither the Sons of Liberty, Abolishonists or the Progressives were demographically dominated by an elder prophet generation. They all had a multigenerational support base.
Ah. Good point.

Do we really have an Emerging Movement yet, then? Even in its earliest form?







Post#110 at 06-06-2010 11:54 AM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
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Quote Originally Posted by BookishXer View Post
Ah. Good point.

Do we really have an Emerging Movement yet, then? Even in its earliest form?
No
And if it were to come from the right, it would look very different from the Tea Party.







Post#111 at 06-06-2010 01:44 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
No
And if it were to come from the right, it would look very different from the Tea Party.
You might find this enlightening: http://lesliebard.blogspot.com/?zx=2a335c9631bcbc09

Scroll down to "deja vu all over again" (should be second from the top) and then read the one on top.

My guess is, we have no idea at all what the Tea Party is going to do, who is running it, or who will end up running it.







Post#112 at 06-07-2010 12:40 AM by Otter [at joined Nov 2009 #posts 61]
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I agree that the Tea Party is too decentralized to get an accurate picture of the movement. The Tea Party in Arizona has a different agenda than the Tea Party in Kentucky which has a different agenda than the Tea Party movement in Florida, etc. Whatever its future, the various Tea Parties are already influencing the current political debate and the struggle between national Republican conservatives and local Tea Party activists is fun to watch.

I wonder if today’s Tea Party activists were yesterday’s Peace activists. Not the people on the podium but the people in the crowds. That the 4T 60-something Tea Party activists in the crowd today are the same 2T 20-something Peace activists in the crowd 40 years ago. At both ages resenting and protesting government intrusion into their lives. Then to participate in a war overseas; now to have retirement taxed to support a domestic agenda.







Post#113 at 06-07-2010 01:07 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Oklahoma! also is a mirror to Carousel. Oklahoma! ends on an unrealistically & forced happy note (well, he's dead, Curly killed him, let's just ignore that fact & pretend that that didn't happen & we'll be okay), while Carousel ends on more of a realistically happy note (yes, bad things have happened, but we can move on & find forgiveness and acceptance).


~Chas'88

I dunno... I saw Carousel only once, as a ten year old, and didn't come away from it with the feeling of a happy ending at all.

I can't recall the details of what the movie was about... only the gist of it, which was Gordon McCrae's character, apparently newly dead, in purgatory... explaining to his also-dead buddy how he'd finally had everything he always wanted (a family, i.e. Shirley Jones and his still-to-be-born daughter)... and lost it all by dying.

It was a great movie... but to me ended on a very depressing note. I should rent it someday... maybe I'd get something different from it as an adult, 40 years later.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#114 at 06-07-2010 10:38 AM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by Otter View Post
I agree that the Tea Party is too decentralized to get an accurate picture of the movement. The Tea Party in Arizona has a different agenda than the Tea Party in Kentucky which has a different agenda than the Tea Party movement in Florida, etc. Whatever its future, the various Tea Parties are already influencing the current political debate and the struggle between national Republican conservatives and local Tea Party activists is fun to watch.

I wonder if today’s Tea Party activists were yesterday’s Peace activists. Not the people on the podium but the people in the crowds. That the 4T 60-something Tea Party activists in the crowd today are the same 2T 20-something Peace activists in the crowd 40 years ago. At both ages resenting and protesting government intrusion into their lives. Then to participate in a war overseas; now to have retirement taxed to support a domestic agenda.
Great perception of the current Tea Party people. It would kind of make sense, wouldn't it? People can easily change their political affiliations depending on what is effecting them at the current stages in their lives. And they grew up with rallies and marches taking center stage with MLK and the peace marches. It's what they know how to do. The Xers just held concerts and benefits to advance their causes. (Live Aid, Farm Aid, etc.) I wonder if when we are senior citizens if we will gather together and watch Gray haired members of Green Day performing to move people to get behind our cause, whatever that may be.







Post#115 at 06-12-2010 12:08 AM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Quote Originally Posted by Otter View Post
I agree that the Tea Party is too decentralized to get an accurate picture of the movement. The Tea Party in Arizona has a different agenda than the Tea Party in Kentucky which has a different agenda than the Tea Party movement in Florida, etc.
It is a boomer movement.
They are not going to agree.
And they are not going to allow the national GOP to control them.
They will be too individualistic for that.
I live in the most Republican part of South Carolina, i.e. the western highlands.
And I have friends in the local tea party.
And no, they don't like Obama.
But they don't trust the Republicans either.
Quote Originally Posted by Otter
Whatever its future, the various Tea Parties are already influencing the current political debate and the struggle between national Republican conservatives and local Tea Party activists is fun to watch.
: See above. ::
Quote Originally Posted by Otter
I wonder if today’s Tea Party activists were yesterday’s Peace activists. Not the people on the podium but the people in the crowds. That the 4T 60-something Tea Party activists in the crowd today are the same 2T 20-something Peace activists in the crowd 40 years ago. At both ages resenting and protesting government intrusion into their lives.
In both groups, your talking about thousands of people who happen to overlap because they are both part of succeeding social moments. No doubt there are some crossovers. What may matter more in the end is how those boomers and elder silents who took part in neither group react to it all.

Quote Originally Posted by Otter
Then to participate in a war overseas; now to have retirement taxed to support a domestic agenda.
Excuse me, but I thought that there were two wars going on overseas in 2010.
Of course the corporate media is going to show the tea party 'leaders' who fit best into comfortable, familiar market tested boxes-LCD and all.
But do you really believe that most of the tea party begins and ends with opposition to Obama?

I don't.

Nevertheless, they are an old demographic.
If they do not inspire Xers and millies in meaningful numbers
then they will go into an irreversible decline and most likely be irrelevant after the 2012 election.
Last edited by herbal tee; 06-12-2010 at 12:15 AM.







Post#116 at 06-17-2010 11:21 AM by Otter [at joined Nov 2009 #posts 61]
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Hello herbal tee –

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my recent post. To clarify a couple of items –

1. “Then to participate in a war overseas” meant “then”, 40 years ago, 1970, Vietnam, not 2010.
2. I don’t think I’ve ever said, nor meant to imply, the “tea party begins and ends with opposition to Obama”. The idea I meant to convey was the tea party represents disillusionment and opposition to the Political Establishment, both Republican and Democrat, at all levels of government. The tea party movement took out Establisment figures Bennett in Utah, Crist in Florida, and Senator McConnell’s hand picked candidate, Trey Grayson, in Kentucky. 40 years ago, that opposition to the Political Establishment (Johnson, Nixon) was the Vietnam War protest marches. Today, that opposition to the Political Establishment (Obama, Reid, McConnell, Pelosi, Boehner, et al) is the tea party rallies.

I don’t know if you heard the Neil Howe interview the other night on the radio program Coast-2-Coast. There were a number of Xers and Millies who called in and expressed cynicism and disillusionment with today’s political system. Of course the callers may not be a fair representation of all Xers and Millies due to the small numbers heard and the alternative nature of the program, but it might also signal an undercurrent of thought by these two generations not reported by the corporate media. The graying demographic of the tea party rallies may be a reflection of limited involvement by only the older generations, or it may be because the younger generations can’t attend the rallies in greater numbers due to work. The cross-sectional depth of the Tea Party movement should be revealed this fall in analysis of the mid-term elections.







Post#117 at 06-17-2010 12:44 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Otter View Post
...I don’t think I’ve ever said, nor meant to imply, the “tea party begins and ends with opposition to Obama”. The idea I meant to convey was the tea party represents disillusionment and opposition to the Political Establishment, both Republican and Democrat, at all levels of government. The tea party movement took out Establisment figures Bennett in Utah, Crist in Florida, and Senator McConnell’s hand picked candidate, Trey Grayson, in Kentucky. 40 years ago, that opposition to the Political Establishment (Johnson, Nixon) was the Vietnam War protest marches. Today, that opposition to the Political Establishment (Obama, Reid, McConnell, Pelosi, Boehner, et al) is the tea party rallies.

I don’t know if you heard the Neil Howe interview the other night on the radio program Coast-2-Coast. There were a number of Xers and Millies who called in and expressed cynicism and disillusionment with today’s political system. Of course the callers may not be a fair representation of all Xers and Millies due to the small numbers heard and the alternative nature of the program, but it might also signal an undercurrent of thought by these two generations not reported by the corporate media. The graying demographic of the tea party rallies may be a reflection of limited involvement by only the older generations, or it may be because the younger generations can’t attend the rallies in greater numbers due to work. The cross-sectional depth of the Tea Party movement should be revealed this fall in analysis of the mid-term elections.
Here is a non-political take on the Tea Parties. It's in the NY Times, so a free account may be required. From the aticle (for discussion purposes):
My hypothesis is that what all the events precipitating the Tea Party movement share is that they demonstrated, emphatically and unconditionally, the depths of the absolute dependence of us all on government action, and in so doing they undermined the deeply held fiction of individual autonomy and self-sufficiency that are intrinsic parts of Americans’ collective self-understanding.

The implicit bargain that many Americans struck with the state institutions supporting modern life is that they would be politically acceptable only to the degree to which they remained invisible, and that for all intents and purposes each citizen could continue to believe that she was sovereign over her life; she would, of course, pay taxes, use the roads and schools, receive Medicare and Social Security, but only so long as these could be perceived not as radical dependencies, but simply as the conditions for leading an autonomous and self-sufficient life. Recent events have left that bargain in tatters.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#118 at 06-17-2010 03:11 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by RanxeroxVox View Post
What about Shakespeare, considering West Side Story is based on Romeo and Juliet? He was a Elizabethan (Hero) generation, although close to the cusp.

The play (like the musical) also appears during a 1T, not long after the defeat of the Spanish Armada. This suggests to me that both are very much a product of their time.

RV
Romeo & Juliet is more of a comedy gone wrong than anything, Shakespeare trying to bring in more serious material into his inherently comedic formula of writing. As a writer, Shakespeare was a comedian who was trying to grasp an understanding of tragic drama and from that find a way to include more complex ideas into his writing.

Romeo & Juliet (labelled a tragedy by later scholars in the 18th Century who rewrote most of his plays to suit the tastes of the time; Shakespeare never labelled his own plays) is one of four "problem plays" where Shakespeare goes experimental and starts tinkering with basic formulas of playwriting, the other three are Hamlet, Measure for Measure, and All's Well that Ends Well.

Romeo & Juliet are the comedic formula play that ends sadly because characters have too much passion and cannot control their destructive urges--a problem later solved in his Tragi-Comedies--and Juliet fails to convert Romeo from an old outdated & sentimentalized way of expressing love (Patrarchan/Courtly love). No one has the tragic realization at the end of the play that their passions were the root of the problem. There's no realization from either Montague or Capulet that their own passions and expression of those passions by their family & connections caused all of this. Instead they start arguing over who's going to build the better golden statue over their dead children's bodies--i.e. the feud continues in another form. Romeo dies still unconverted--taking the already stereotyped sentimental/romantic way out by drinking poison--a kind of death a lover would swear to in a Sentimental/Romantic age. And Juliet regresses in her death scene, after failing to convert Romeo to move beyond the Patrarchan/Courtly lover (the kind who would swear by a moon for eternal fidelity) and move towards a more uninnocent kind of love (where faults & romance are swept away by realizations of who the person actually is), and becomes a Patrarchan lover herself stabbing herself in the chest. As my Silent Professor said of this play, its an emotionally moving play, but far from a tragedy.

West Side Story actually fixes the problem and turns the story into a tragedy by giving the tragic realization to Maria at the end. She doesn't kill herself in despair but becomes a tigress and a leader amongst the younger generation who don't need the adults and their world full of hate that's corrupted them (Silents expressing their disatisfaction with the world the GIs & Lost have built). She walks out a stronger woman than before, no longer full of silly romantic dreams (I Feel Pretty), but now a hard-bitten realist ("We all killed him") to the pains of what hatred & racism can do. In West Side Story, Maria and Tony are both Patrarchan lovers, and it's Maria who grows beyond it. That's how Shakespeare could've transformed Juliet if he had wanted to make it a tragedy, but he didn't. He would've had to have given up his obession with his personal theme of exposing the corruption of language. A common theme in Shakespeare's plays is that the flowerly language of Patrarchan/Courtly Love & language itself has been so over used it no longer means what it's supposed to mean. Juliet is the one who early on challenges the corruption of flowery language: (swear not by the moon, the inconstant, changing...). A Patrarchan/Courtly lover would go ahead and swear things in a flowery sense like that, but Juliet sees reality, the moon changes with the passing month, and though it may be full now, it will be empty later, and by swearing by the moon his love would be tied to such an inconstant feature. She asks at him to try and swear on anything else but a symbol of inconstancy, and eventually asks him to swear on himself. Romeo doesn't really understand what she's trying to do, but does so to appease her. This disconnect that Romeo & Juliet have, dooms them to dying separate from one another in complete misconceptions of what reality is.

Shakespeare, I will say, learns from his mistakes in Antony and Cleopatra, where Cleopatra transforms herself into an artist who transcends her death with rebirth symbolism (the asp suckles at her breast) & denies the complete victory of Octavius by denying him the Roman privledge of humiliating her to make his victory complete. That's where the lovers as tragic figures works out, as Cleopatra, a mature woman, transforms herself beyond what she was and into something immortal. Antony also dies in Cleopatra's arms, instead of separately. In Romeo & Juliet, Juliet--an immature 13 year old girl, stabs herself in a fit of confusion and despair without any transformation beyond regression.

As for it being in a High, WSS truly is (the Silent Generation complaint of the GI built world is quite obvious throughout the piece), but I'd say that R&J is set in an Internal Awakening, or, now that I dwell on the though, perhaps I'd suggest it belongs in the late stages of an Unraveling akin to what led to our Civil War, the Wars of the Roses, the English Civil War, and what's happened today with the Red State vs Blue State thing. That kind of two party split & emnity that's found between the feuding of Montague & Capulet seems typically late Unraveling to me.

One of the things I'll say is that WSS is set during a High-Unraveling (1957 - 1958 time frame), so it might be said that the major feel of R & J expresses what happens in an Unraveling, whether it be a regular Unraveling or a mini-Unraveling.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#119 at 06-18-2010 02:53 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
I dunno... I saw Carousel only once, as a ten year old, and didn't come away from it with the feeling of a happy ending at all.

I can't recall the details of what the movie was about... only the gist of it, which was Gordon McCrae's character, apparently newly dead, in purgatory... explaining to his also-dead buddy how he'd finally had everything he always wanted (a family, i.e. Shirley Jones and his still-to-be-born daughter)... and lost it all by dying.
There's more to the movie than that. He gets the chance to go back for one day & helps his now teenage daughter as she faces problems and temptations similar to what he faced at her age (and the ostricization put upon her by what he did before he died). He influences her to be a good kid and manages to leave a message behind to Julie, Shirley Jones' character, that he always loved her. The movie ends with Gordon McCrae watching his daughter's graduation from the local schoolhouse and him telling her to believe the speaker that the sins of the father shouldn't be held against the child, that she's an individual in her own right, with the right to make of her life anything she chooses. He also asks Julie to forgive him. The chorus then ends on a resounding resprise of the most famous song from Carousel: You'll Never Walk Alone.

If that's not a story of redemption and forgiveness, I don't know what is.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#120 at 06-19-2010 08:47 AM by BookishXer [at joined Oct 2009 #posts 656]
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06-19-2010, 08:47 AM #120
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
There's more to the movie than that. He gets the chance to go back for one day & helps his now teenage daughter as she faces problems and temptations similar to what he faced at her age (and the ostricization put upon her by what he did before he died). He influences her to be a good kid and manages to leave a message behind to Julie, Shirley Jones' character, that he always loved her. The movie ends with Gordon McCrae watching his daughter's graduation from the local schoolhouse and him telling her to believe the speaker that the sins of the father shouldn't be held against the child, that she's an individual in her own right, with the right to make of her life anything she chooses. He also asks Julie to forgive him. The chorus then ends on a resounding resprise of the most famous song from Carousel: You'll Never Walk Alone.

If that's not a story of redemption and forgiveness, I don't know what is.

~Chas'88
Though I’m not a fan of Rogers and Hammerstein’s Carousel, I can see what you’re saying here.

I think R&H picked a difficult story to remake in their trademark way: sweeping musical pageantry with feel-good endings. And I think this is much of the reason it feels awkward to watch. It is a story about redemption, but Billy Bigelow wasn’t being redeemed from a character stumble or environmental ill that hindered his personal growth. He was a very dark man motivated by very dark things, and he was the story’s hero. I recognize that R&H didn’t shy away from creating stories about human flaws or social injustices, but, just in my opinion, the theme resolutions of Carousel feel a little hurried, and therefore a little clumsy.

Not that Rogers or Hammerstein need my personal endorsement for anything.







Post#121 at 09-07-2010 09:39 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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I was thinking about micro-generations while I was fallign asleep last night and this is what I came up with:

Each generation is divided into 4 micro-generations, though the micro-Artist spans the generational boundary.

Micro-Prophet: Comes of age at the end of the previous turning or before the start of the social moment. I would be a Micro-Prophet, as would Chas.

Micro-Nomad: Comes of age during the Social Moment or the 1T/3T equivalent.

Micro-Civic: Comes of age after the Social Moment has cooled and thus not buffeted and knocked around by it's energies as full adults.

Micro-Artist: Comes of age when the turning grows stale. The micro-Artist forms the cusp and does not feel fully a part of the generation on either side.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#122 at 09-07-2010 11:45 AM by BookishXer [at joined Oct 2009 #posts 656]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I was thinking about micro-generations while I was fallign asleep last night and this is what I came up with:

Each generation is divided into 4 micro-generations, though the micro-Artist spans the generational boundary.

Micro-Prophet: Comes of age at the end of the previous turning or before the start of the social moment. I would be a Micro-Prophet, as would Chas.

Micro-Nomad: Comes of age during the Social Moment or the 1T/3T equivalent.

Micro-Civic: Comes of age after the Social Moment has cooled and thus not buffeted and knocked around by it's energies as full adults.

Micro-Artist: Comes of age when the turning grows stale. The micro-Artist forms the cusp and does not feel fully a part of the generation on either side.
I’ve thought about this a little (and I think there are some posts somewhere about Prophet-artists, Civic-nomads, etc) but I want to first see if I’m interpreting your ideas here accurately.


To use the most recent saeculum as the example:

An Artist born in 1930 would come of age during the micro-high of the High. He or she would then be an Artist/micro-prophet.

An Artist born in 1937 came of age circa 1957, during the micro-unraveling of the High, and is thus an Artist/micro-civic.

A Prophet born in 1950 came of age during the micro-awakening of the Awakening and is a Prophet/micro-nomad.

If so, here’s my own tweak, or, perhaps, just a curiosity:

It would seem that the qualities most readily associated with a given archetype would be heightened in those members who came of age during their archetypal parallel moment. That is, an Artist/micro-artist, Prophet/micro-prophet, etc.

But that doesn’t appear so.

Again using the most recent saeculum:

Silents born between 1937 and 1943 arguably present the most trademark Silent qualities. They would have come of age ’56-’64 and would therefore be Artists/micro-artists. A theoretically accurate fit.

However, Prophet-prophets, by this breakdown, would have been born ’44-’47…though I don’t know that these are the cohorts most readily associated with the social movement of the 2T. (I’m thinking it was more ’47-‘51/’52). Likewise, Nomad-nomads would then be those born mid-to-late ‘70s, depending on how one defines the social moment of the last 3T (Late ‘90s? 2000 election? 9/11? Something else?).

I’m wondering, then, if the most stereotypical members of a given archetype are defined, not so much by when they come of age, but by the micro-turning during which they are born…as I think Chas theorized? One who is born in 1997 (Uraveling/unraveling) would be a Civic/civic; 1971 (Awakening/awakening) a Nomad/nomad; 1949 (High/high) a Prophet/prophet; 1941 (Crisis/crisis) an Artist/artist.

Please correct me if I’m not interpreting your breakdown accurately.







Post#123 at 09-07-2010 12:45 PM by Debol1990 [at joined Jul 2010 #posts 734]
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Whoa...So Im a Micro-nomad? Might explain my cynicism and what I call an X'r streak!







Post#124 at 09-07-2010 01:03 PM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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Quote Originally Posted by Debol1990 View Post
Whoa...So Im a Micro-nomad? Might explain my cynicism and what I call an X'r streak!
I can be cynical too.







Post#125 at 09-07-2010 04:43 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by BookishXer View Post
I’ve thought about this a little (and I think there are some posts somewhere about Prophet-artists, Civic-nomads, etc) but I want to first see if I’m interpreting your ideas here accurately.


To use the most recent saeculum as the example:

An Artist born in 1930 would come of age during the micro-high of the High. He or she would then be an Artist/micro-prophet.

An Artist born in 1937 came of age circa 1957, during the micro-unraveling of the High, and is thus an Artist/micro-civic.

A Prophet born in 1950 came of age during the micro-awakening of the Awakening and is a Prophet/micro-nomad.

If so, here’s my own tweak, or, perhaps, just a curiosity:

It would seem that the qualities most readily associated with a given archetype would be heightened in those members who came of age during their archetypal parallel moment. That is, an Artist/micro-artist, Prophet/micro-prophet, etc.

But that doesn’t appear so.

Again using the most recent saeculum:

Silents born between 1937 and 1943 arguably present the most trademark Silent qualities. They would have come of age ’56-’64 and would therefore be Artists/micro-artists. A theoretically accurate fit.

However, Prophet-prophets, by this breakdown, would have been born ’44-’47…though I don’t know that these are the cohorts most readily associated with the social movement of the 2T. (I’m thinking it was more ’47-‘51/’52). Likewise, Nomad-nomads would then be those born mid-to-late ‘70s, depending on how one defines the social moment of the last 3T (Late ‘90s? 2000 election? 9/11? Something else?).

I’m wondering, then, if the most stereotypical members of a given archetype are defined, not so much by when they come of age, but by the micro-turning during which they are born…as I think Chas theorized? One who is born in 1997 (Uraveling/unraveling) would be a Civic/civic; 1971 (Awakening/awakening) a Nomad/nomad; 1949 (High/high) a Prophet/prophet; 1941 (Crisis/crisis) an Artist/artist.

Please correct me if I’m not interpreting your breakdown accurately.
That could be, I was just throwing out the idea before I forgot about it.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
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