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Thread: Micro-Turnings - Page 6







Post#126 at 09-07-2010 04:49 PM by BookishXer [at joined Oct 2009 #posts 656]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
That could be, I was just throwing out the idea before I forgot about it.

Odin, should you ever choose to have kids, this is a great talent to have cultivated.







Post#127 at 09-15-2010 05:11 AM by pizal81 [at China joined May 2010 #posts 2,392]
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According to this born in 1981 I would be a Nomad/micro-civic or Nomad/micro-artist?







Post#128 at 09-15-2010 08:58 AM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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I was trying to figure this out too. I was born in 1965 and came of age in the early to mid 1980's (83/84), so I guess that makes me nomad-nomad since I believe that was around the 3T turning.







Post#129 at 09-15-2010 09:57 AM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
I'd add 1989ers as well, at least from my experience. Not to put you guys down or anything, but I've noticed that 1989ers & on have this kind of dull "porcelain doll" kinda look to them in their eyes, and they tend to be more conforming than Millies born earlier. Now, I'm not exactly putting you guys down, I'm just telling you what I've observed.

The following is speculative and purely theoretical:

Judging from the posters on this board I'd classify things like this:

Millennials (coming of age 18) Year Range: 2000 - ???

1982 - 1988 - Civic-civic - Mary Kate 1982, Chas'88, Odin (1986), Wes'84, Mr. Reed (1982)
1989 - 1993 - Civic-artist - Rose1992, Matt1989, collegeguy90
1994 - ??? - Civic-prophet - General Mung Beans (1996)
??? - ??? - Civic-nomad - n/a

GIs (coming of age 21): 1925 - 1941: Possible range of GIs coming of age

1904 - 1908 - Civic-civic - LBJ, McCarthy, Lillian Hellman
1908 - 1912 - Civic-artist - Leonard Bernstein
1912 - 1917 - Civic-prophet - Jackson Pollock
1917 - 1920 - Civic-nomad - J.D. Salinger, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie

The change between 21 for GIs & 18 for Millies occurred due to the lowering of voting age & the focus on graduation from high school.

1901 - 1904 would be added to the Nomad-nomads - Louis Armstrong (makes sense)
1920 - 1924 would be added to the Artist-civics - Sammy Davis Jr, Rod Serling (makes sense)

~Chas'88
What do you mean by people born after 1989 have a "dull porcelain doll" look in their eyes, and are more conformist?







Post#130 at 09-15-2010 05:03 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
What do you mean by people born after 1989 have a "dull porcelain doll" look in their eyes, and are more conformist?
he is saying you guys are a bunch of brainless sheep.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#131 at 09-15-2010 06:38 PM by Debol1990 [at joined Jul 2010 #posts 734]
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Whops I was wrong, I am a Civic-artist


lame

I'm not good at art. I can play the french horn/trumpet I guess.
Last edited by Debol1990; 09-15-2010 at 06:41 PM.







Post#132 at 09-15-2010 06:45 PM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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Quote Originally Posted by Debol1990 View Post
Whops I was wrong, I am a Civic-artist


lame

I'm not good at art. I can play the french horn/trumpet I guess.
Fallacy of using a word with a different meaning. Can't remember what you call that.







Post#133 at 09-15-2010 06:53 PM by Debol1990 [at joined Jul 2010 #posts 734]
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What?

I am a civic-artist. I think it's lame * frown face*. I;m not good at art (painting/sculpting/drawing). I can play the French horn and trumpet.

fallacy?







Post#134 at 09-15-2010 06:57 PM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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I'm skeptical of the micro-turnings. And btw, do you think of yourself as having porcelain doll eyes like Odin said above?







Post#135 at 09-15-2010 07:25 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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I kind of like it. I get to be a nomad-nomad. So whatever







Post#136 at 09-17-2010 12:50 AM by Ted '79 [at joined Jan 2008 #posts 322]
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Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
Fallacy of using a word with a different meaning. Can't remember what you call that.
The fallacy of equivocation.

Equivocation means using two meanings of a term which has several different possible meanings, obscuring the fact that your conclusion does not follow from your premises.

A funny example:

1. We must do something.
2. This is something.
3. Therefore, we must do it.

In step 1, "We must do something" is used figuratively to mean, "We must take action." Then in step 2 it's taken literally. A translation that makes the fallacy clear might be:

1. We must act.
2. This is one specific action.
3. Therefore we must do this.

The initial argument uses "[do] something" in two different senses while implying they are the same thing; the translation makes it clear that "to act" and "to take this specific action" are not the same thing. Thus the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

Likewise, Debol said:

1. If I were an Artist, I'd be good at art.
2. I'm not.
3. Therefore I'm not an Artist.

Which seems to make sense. But Strauss and Howe (and Chas) were using "Artist" figuratively -- as a label for their own idea of a generational personality, one which calls to mind "the artistic temperament." So when you translate the argument and remove the equivocation, you get:

1. If I did (or had the potential to do) art as a profession, I'd be good at art.
2. I'm not.
3. Therefore I don't have S&H's idea of the artistic temperament.

This conclusion obviously does not follow from the premises given. "Artist" can mean "someone who does (or could do) art as a profession"; it can also mean "S&H's generational description which is based on the artistic temperament." Debol was using the same word to mean two different things.

Thanks for noticing that, Adina! The fallacy of equivocation is a pet peeve of mine.







Post#137 at 09-17-2010 01:28 AM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
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Thanks a lot debol1990, I needed to find an example of equivocation for my TOK class!







Post#138 at 09-17-2010 12:30 PM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
Thanks a lot debol1990, I needed to find an example of equivocation for my TOK class!
Are you going to tell them about S&H's theory?







Post#139 at 09-17-2010 01:22 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by pizal81 View Post
According to this born in 1981 I would be a Nomad/micro-civic or Nomad/micro-artist?
The whole micro-generations thing is something I'm not going to go out and support. It's an idea in development that I only am really half interested. BookishXer and Odin are much more interested in micro-generations than I am or probably would ever be.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#140 at 09-17-2010 01:34 PM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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So which micro-generation thing do I seem the most like?







Post#141 at 09-17-2010 10:38 PM by Debol1990 [at joined Jul 2010 #posts 734]
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Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
Thanks a lot debol1990, I needed to find an example of equivocation for my TOK class!

I still don't know what I said....It was either supremely stupid or profound.

I guess your welcome







Post#142 at 09-17-2010 10:49 PM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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Quote Originally Posted by Debol1990 View Post
I still don't know what I said....It was either supremely stupid or profound.

I guess your welcome
Basically, words that sound the same can have different meanings. An example would be "night" or "knight". If English went through a spelling reform (since the "gh" in knight hasn't been pronounced in hundreds of years), they would be spelt the same way--as "nite" let's say. The word "nite" would then have two meanings: one being the opposite of day, the other being a rank. That does not mean that the meanings are interchangeable. What you said above was:"I am a Civic-artist...I'm not good at art. I can play the french horn/trumpet I guess." Now, the word "artist" as defined by S&H is a generational archetype. It has absolutely nothing to do with art whatsoever, just as a knight has nothing to do with night, just because they sound the same. So, you incorrectly assumed that S&H's definition of "artist" had something to do with ones artistic ability just because the word was the same. Just as, when you're talking about computers, you can't use the word driver (as relating to computers) to mean someone who drives a vehicle, just because they appear to be the same word.







Post#143 at 09-18-2010 01:55 AM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
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Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
Are you going to tell them about S&H's theory?
Unfortunately my partner for the project I'm working on (who is also my very very best friend) found a better one that required a lot less explaining.
I can't explain the nuances of S&H in a 5 minute presentation.







Post#144 at 09-22-2010 09:26 PM by Debol1990 [at joined Jul 2010 #posts 734]
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Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
Basically, words that sound the same can have different meanings. An example would be "night" or "knight". If English went through a spelling reform (since the "gh" in knight hasn't been pronounced in hundreds of years), they would be spelt the same way--as "nite" let's say. The word "nite" would then have two meanings: one being the opposite of day, the other being a rank. That does not mean that the meanings are interchangeable. What you said above was:"I am a Civic-artist...I'm not good at art. I can play the french horn/trumpet I guess." Now, the word "artist" as defined by S&H is a generational archetype. It has absolutely nothing to do with art whatsoever, just as a knight has nothing to do with night, just because they sound the same. So, you incorrectly assumed that S&H's definition of "artist" had something to do with ones artistic ability just because the word was the same. Just as, when you're talking about computers, you can't use the word driver (as relating to computers) to mean someone who drives a vehicle, just because they appear to be the same word.

I caught the explanation haha.

I was just messing around guys!







Post#145 at 10-04-2010 07:27 PM by Adina [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 3,613]
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Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
Thanks a lot debol1990, I needed to find an example of equivocation for my TOK class!
How did that go?







Post#146 at 12-24-2010 09:35 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Micro-Crisises Across Time

Here are a list of Micro-Crisises as I see them:

1863 - 1868: Civil War - Emancipation Proclamation

1883 - 1887: Reconstruction & Gilded Age - Haymarket Affair

1903 - 1908: Third Great Awakening - Square Deal

1923 - 1929: WWI & Prohibition - Roaring 20s & the Stock Market

1941 - 1946: Great Depression & WWII - WWII & foundation of the UN

1960 - 1964: American High - Civil Rights Act of 1964

1980 - 1984: Consciousness Revolution - Reagan Revolution

2000 - 2005: 9/11 & Homeland - Do I have to say why?

Why are they important?

There are a few reasons that I can think of:

1) It is when society can no longer support the existing culture of the Turning.

2) It is when a new sect of society takes hold and pushes through NEEDED change on a grand societal level, beginning to ferment the atmosphere and general feel of the next turning.

3) It is (generally) about the time when cuspers between generations are being born and when cuspers come of age.

~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 12-24-2010 at 09:46 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#147 at 01-13-2011 12:07 AM by Debol1990 [at joined Jul 2010 #posts 734]
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I just posted this on another thread but could the shooting of Gifford be the beginning of the next Micro-turning?

If the crisis began in 2008 this could be the beginning of the crisis-awakening

If the crisis began in 2005 it could be the beginning of the crisis-unraveling

if the crisis began in 2001 this could be the beginning of the crisis-crisis.







Post#148 at 01-13-2011 05:44 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by Debol1990 View Post
I just posted this on another thread but could the shooting of Gifford be the beginning of the next Micro-turning?

If the crisis began in 2008 this could be the beginning of the crisis-awakening

If the crisis began in 2005 it could be the beginning of the crisis-unraveling

if the crisis began in 2001 this could be the beginning of the crisis-crisis.
Has the previous temperament of society been changed or intensified? As far as I can tell the Gifford shooting has only intensified the current Crisis-Awakening culture that started last year.

Much too early to be either the Crisis-Unraveling or the Crisis-Crisis.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#149 at 01-13-2011 05:47 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Has the previous temperament of society been changed or intensified? As far as I can tell the Gifford shooting has only intensified the current Crisis-Awakening culture that started last year.

Much too early to be either the Crisis-Unraveling or the Crisis-Crisis.

~Chas'88
Completely agree with that, Chas. How long does each of your micro-turnings last? Five years?
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#150 at 01-13-2011 05:53 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
Completely agree with that, Chas. How long does each of your micro-turnings last? Five years?
Most last 5 years, very few last 4 or 6.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
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