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Thread: Philosophy, religion, science and turnings - Page 25







Post#601 at 03-04-2012 03:13 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Just throwing in something that occurred to me today in the context of what I am working on now. I am arranging a famous choral work for organ. It seems to be taking me longer to arrange it than it did for Handel to write it in the first place!

But it has four vocal parts: soprano, alto, tenor and bass. In this thread we have mentioned the four kinds of knowledge: mystical religion, art, philosophy and science. Consider that string theory and Eastern philosophy both say that the universe is like music. Now, the chorus won't work if each singer doesn't perform his part. The tenor part is not the bass part, just as philosophy is not science. But when we hear and enjoy a Handel chorus, we don't hear separate parts. Only all four together make up the music. Just as all four kinds of knowledge are required for knowledge. This observation is relevant to the question of can the kinds of knowledge be combined, or must they remain entirely separate. My idea would be like the chorus. Each "sings" its part, and doesn't switch over to another part; but we don't have real "knowledge" without all four, performing together. Each remains what it is, and yet contributes to the whole, working in harmony with each other.

Here is the chorus I am working on:
http://youtu.be/76RrdwElnTU

So that it sounds something like this:
(but the transcription he uses doesn't seem to be available to me)
http://youtu.be/ZbNdrqTwV18

Enjoy! and....
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#602 at 03-04-2012 11:37 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Consider that string theory and Eastern philosophy both say that the universe is like music.
Not just those two, but the Western literary genre of Romance says this as well. The Music of the Spheres. I'm reminded of the scene in Act V of Pericles, Prince of Tyre, after he's been reunited with his daughter, begins to hear music that no one else can hear--the music of the spheres he calls it--and then Diana comes down and tells Pericles to go to her temple at Epidamnus in order to complete his happy ending.

In fact there was a study done on the vibrations of the planets and it turns out they're vibrating in a major chord.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#603 at 03-04-2012 05:46 PM by JonLaw [at Hurricane Alley joined Oct 2010 #posts 186]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Not just those two, but the Western literary genre of Romance says this as well. The Music of the Spheres. I'm reminded of the scene in Act V of Pericles, Prince of Tyre, after he's been reunited with his daughter, begins to hear music that no one else can hear--the music of the spheres he calls it--and then Diana comes down and tells Pericles to go to her temple at Epidamnus in order to complete his happy ending.

In fact there was a study done on the vibrations of the planets and it turns out they're vibrating in a major chord.

~Chas'88
My current working assumption is that the universes are sung into existence.
The future always casts a shadow on the present.







Post#604 at 03-05-2012 12:35 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Music of the spheres is one of my favorite metaphors. The picture at the wikipedia site also depicts the stairway to heaven (which I have been referring to in the higher visions for the future thread), which is the same thing. And the stairway is in yourself in your chakra centers, which are your interior planets. Note the snake in the picture; that's what it refers to. It is interesting that they seem to sound a major chord. They are also linked symbolically to the musical scale, which is based on mathematical proportions. C, F and G are the essential notes in all musical scales. Colors and vowel tones are also linked to this planetary ladder. The holographic hermetic principle, as above, so below (as within, so without), is basic to the universe.

The planets are arranged in a stairway to heaven in two different ways: outer to inner (Saturn to Sun), and inner to outer (Earth to Saturn). The latter is used in the picture, with the Sun taking the place of earth in the actual orbits; the former is used in astrology and in my Bach essay, in which the zodiac signs ruled by each planet replace the muses. Both ways are referred to by alchemists and philosophers.

It is interesting that in the picture, the 8th sphere is named Urania, traditionally meaning the fixed stars; and in fact later the 8th planet was named Uranus.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 03-05-2012 at 12:48 AM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#605 at 03-05-2012 12:54 AM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Uranus.
!

Prince
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."







Post#606 at 03-05-2012 09:43 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Oddly enough, the few times I've been out in the country under a clear sky at sunrise, I've "felt" something like the vibrations of a major chord.
Never knew what that was about.
Solar "sounds"







Post#607 at 03-05-2012 09:59 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Oddly enough, the few times I've been out in the country under a clear sky at sunrise, I've "felt" something like the vibrations of a major chord.
Never knew what that was about.
Music of the Stars

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#608 at 03-06-2012 03:55 PM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Oddly enough, the few times I've been out in the country under a clear sky at sunrise, I've "felt" something like the vibrations of a major chord.
Never knew what that was about.
It must have been an "I'm in auh/awe"moment type of orgasm of some sort.







Post#609 at 03-06-2012 08:45 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
But it has four vocal parts: soprano, alto, tenor and bass. In this thread we have mentioned the four kinds of knowledge: mystical religion, art, philosophy and science. Consider that string theory and Eastern philosophy both say that the universe is like music. Now, the chorus won't work if each singer doesn't perform his part. The tenor part is not the bass part, just as philosophy is not science. But when we hear and enjoy a Handel chorus, we don't hear separate parts. Only all four together make up the music. Just as all four kinds of knowledge are required for knowledge. This observation is relevant to the question of can the kinds of knowledge be combined, or must they remain entirely separate. My idea would be like the chorus. Each "sings" its part, and doesn't switch over to another part; but we don't have real "knowledge" without all four, performing together. Each remains what it is, and yet contributes to the whole, working in harmony with each other.
Eric, here I agree with you. Now, you're not claiming that science is defective or calling on it to change, you're just noting that it's not complete, and that there are other forms of knowing besides scientific method that a human mind should incorporate for a full picture: science for models of observable reality, art for aesthetic understanding, philosophy for moral judgments and pondering the unobservable, and mysticism for piercing the illusions of selfhood. This comes very near to what I've been saying all along: that science is a tool for a limited purpose, not a universal system of knowledge; that it is supreme in its own territory but has no competence outside it, and there are some very important questions that are outside it.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#610 at 03-07-2012 12:53 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
Eric, here I agree with you. Now, you're not claiming that science is defective or calling on it to change, you're just noting that it's not complete, and that there are other forms of knowing besides scientific method that a human mind should incorporate for a full picture: science for models of observable reality, art for aesthetic understanding, philosophy for moral judgments and pondering the unobservable, and mysticism for piercing the illusions of selfhood. This comes very near to what I've been saying all along: that science is a tool for a limited purpose, not a universal system of knowledge; that it is supreme in its own territory but has no competence outside it, and there are some very important questions that are outside it.
Well then, good; I guess we'll leave it there for now!

And I hope you enjoy the Handel.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#611 at 03-07-2012 12:55 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Doesn't exactly make my heart pulse! I think Bach got it closer!
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#612 at 03-07-2012 01:16 AM by summer in the fall [at joined Jul 2011 #posts 1,540]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Doesn't exactly make my heart pulse! I think Bach got it closer!
The "sound" of a metaphor cannot be outdone. Best...
Last edited by summer in the fall; 03-07-2012 at 01:18 AM.







Post#613 at 03-07-2012 10:55 AM by JonLaw [at Hurricane Alley joined Oct 2010 #posts 186]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
Eric, here I agree with you. Now, you're not claiming that science is defective or calling on it to change, you're just noting that it's not complete, and that there are other forms of knowing besides scientific method that a human mind should incorporate for a full picture: science for models of observable reality, art for aesthetic understanding, philosophy for moral judgments and pondering the unobservable, and mysticism for piercing the illusions of selfhood. This comes very near to what I've been saying all along: that science is a tool for a limited purpose, not a universal system of knowledge; that it is supreme in its own territory but has no competence outside it, and there are some very important questions that are outside it.
I don't use mysticism for "piercing the illusions of selfhood". In fact, that's precisely wrong, in my opinion. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon. In fact, I'm going to have to live with myself forever.

The rest of it is somewhat accurate. Or at least accurate enough that I have no specific disagreements off the top of my head.
The future always casts a shadow on the present.







Post#614 at 03-07-2012 02:40 PM by TnT [at joined Feb 2005 #posts 2,005]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
... that a human mind should incorporate for a full picture: science for models of observable reality, art for aesthetic understanding, philosophy for moral judgments and pondering the unobservable, and mysticism for piercing the illusions of selfhood. ...
If I might ... mysticism is roughly the same thing as "spiritual experience?"

In my own limited encounter with spiritual experience, it seems to me that these experiences seemed to me to create a momentary unification sensation.

My "spiritual experiences" were very personal and it would be hard for me to "prove" them in any way. Yet they were certainly "real" to me and in fact caused significant changes in my life and the way I see myself in relation to others and to my environment.

Piercing the illusions of selfhood? It might be interesting to explore that more. In the sense that "selfhood" is a very inwardly directed sense of self that excludes too much of the rest of the universe and means a kind of self-centered reality. Connection to others, connection to what I see as physical reality, connection to concepts of what it all means, and finally a profound emotional sensation regarding it all ...

I think that maybe we all as humans have this hole in the middle with the wind blowing through that we want to fill. Many of us do it with alcohol, drugs, food, sex, work, money, all kinds of tangibles and intangibles. What we may be searching for is this elusive connection to everything ... a unification. Maybe if we are lucky enough to have the occasional "spiritual experience," we get a glimpse of it?
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."







Post#615 at 03-07-2012 04:06 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Good way to say it, TnT. Can't improve on that, actually.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#616 at 03-21-2012 04:27 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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TnT, maybe you are a mystic after all.

I am enjoying spring. You can feel the life in the air, and how it raises your spirit with subtle nudgings. It is hard to describe; discussions and arguments can't touch it, though they can distract us from it. Maybe poets like Wordsworth can give you an idea.

The sun, above the mountain's head,
A freshening lustre mellow
Through all the long green fields has spread,
His first sweet evening yellow.

Books! 'tis a dull and endless strife:
Come, hear the woodland linnet,
How sweet his music! on my life,
There's more of wisdom in it.

And hark! how blithe the throstle sings!
He, too, is no mean preacher:
Come forth into the light of things,
Let Nature be your teacher.

She has a world of ready wealth,
Our minds and hearts to bless--
Spontaneous wisdom breathed by health,
Truth breathed by cheerfulness.

One impulse from a vernal wood
May teach you more of man,
Of moral evil and of good,
Than all the sages can.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings;
Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:--
We murder to dissect.

Enough of Science and of Art;
Close up those barren leaves;
Come forth, and bring with you a heart
That watches and receives.
1798.

It reminds me though, of the wisdom of discarding the two traditional myths of our culture that interfere with our experience of nature. When I feel and see the life around me, that is enough to disprove them. Both myths are at bottom materialistic, since they say the world is "made of stuff." Needless to say, this sacred world of which I am a part is not a bunch of stuff. It is living and conscious, and that's why it's beautiful, enlivening and inspiring. The world inspires us more when we are free from these myths that we impose on it for our own purposes.

Alan Watts described the two myths beautifully as the ceramic model and the fully automatic model of the universe. If it is inert stuff, then it must be formed from the outside and infused with life by a supernatural daddy, according to the ceramic model. People on this forum don't subscribe to this model, but you can visit Theology OnLine (much more popular than this one) to get your fill of arguing with it.

Here, people are more likely to buy some version of the Fully Automatic Model, which is just the stuff without the Father God to form and infuse the clay. It is a legacy of the 18th century enlightenment, and fully developed in the Darwinian era of the mid-19th century. But it cuts out our experience of the world as enchanted and alive, and deprives us of the mystery and wonder of the world, no matter how fervently the scientists claim otherwise, because (according to them) it is so strange that a world of such complexity and "law and order" could come into existence automatically, and that it's so "wonderful" that we can "understand" how it happens. That kind of "wonder" is no substitute for the real thing.

Dropping the two myths, we can see that we ourselves are conscious; and that is God's presence here and within me, and that is mysterious and miraculous. What we experience and know in ourselves, is therefore present in all other people and things, because of the truth of that unity that we know and feel.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 03-21-2012 at 05:46 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#617 at 03-21-2012 08:33 PM by TnT [at joined Feb 2005 #posts 2,005]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
TnT, maybe you are a mystic after all.
I doubt that very, very much.

I am satisfied with a very large amount of mystery in my model of our existence. Experience with an open mind seems to bring me insight.

Something that interests me is the way that when like-minded people come together, "something special" seems to happen. Without even trying to define "god" I still like to attribute the something to the biblical "whenever two or more come together in my name, there also I am." Something happens.

Another model that I stole from William James' Varieties of Religious Experience, is the notion that perhaps we are like icebergs floating in the sea ... our conscious mind is the tip, our subconscious the part of the berg below water, and the sea between us all is that essence, that "god" if you will that connects us all. My own personal experience with stuff like this suggests that a lot of insight and intuition comes up to me from my subconscious, and perhaps some of the better ideas come in that way from the "sea."
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."







Post#618 at 03-21-2012 09:05 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Sounds good to me.

Well, maybe you are a mystic after all.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#619 at 05-05-2012 12:26 AM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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From the dirty, materialistic universe comes murder and destruction:

Astronomers have gathered the most direct evidence yet of a supermassive black hole shredding a star that wandered too close.

Supermassive black holes, weighing millions to billions times more than the Sun, lurk in the centers of most galaxies. These hefty monsters lay quietly until an unsuspecting victim, such as a star, wanders close enough to get ripped apart by their powerful gravitational clutches.

Astronomers have spotted these stellar homicides before, but this is the first time they can identify the victim. Using a slew of ground- and space-based telescopes, a team of astronomers led by Suvi Gezari of The Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Md., has identified the victim as a star rich in helium gas. The star resides in a galaxy 2.7 billion light-years away.

Her team's results will appear May 2 in the online edition of the journal Nature.

"When the star is ripped apart by the gravitational forces of the black hole, some part of the star's remains falls into the black hole, while the rest is ejected at high speeds. We are seeing the glow from the stellar gas falling into the black hole over time. We're also witnessing the spectral signature of the ejected gas, which we find to be mostly helium. It is like we are gathering evidence from a crime scene. Because there is very little hydrogen and mostly helium in the gas we detect from the carnage, we know that the slaughtered star had to have been the helium-rich core of a stripped star," Gezari explained.

This observation yields insights about the harsh environment around black holes and the types of stars swirling around them.

This is not the first time the unlucky star had a brush with the behemoth black hole. Gezari and her team think the star's hydrogen-filled envelope surrounding its core was lifted off a long time ago by the same black hole. In their scenario, the star may have been near the end of its life. After consuming most of its hydrogen fuel, it had probably ballooned in size, becoming a red giant. The astronomers think the bloated star was looping around the black hole in a highly elliptical orbit, similar to a comet's elongated orbit around the Sun. On one of its close approaches, the star was stripped of its puffed-up atmosphere by the black hole's powerful gravity. Only its core remained intact. The stellar remnant continued its journey around the black hole, until it ventured even closer to the behemoth monster and faced its ultimate demise.

Astronomers have predicted that stripped stars circle the central black hole of our Milky Way galaxy, Gezari pointed out. These close encounters, however, are rare, occurring roughly every 100,000 years. To find this one event, Gezari's team monitored hundreds of thousands of galaxies in ultraviolet light with the NASA's Galaxy Evolution Explorer (GALEX), a space-based observatory, and in visible light with the Pan-STARRS1 telescope on the summit of Haleakala in Hawaii. Pan-STARRS, short for Panoramic Survey Telescope and Rapid Response System, scans the entire night sky for all kinds of transient phenomena, including supernovae.

The team was looking for a bright flare in ultraviolet light from the nucleus of a galaxy with a previously dormant black hole. They found one in June 2010, which was spotted with both telescopes. Both telescopes continued to monitor the flare as it reached peak brightness a month later and then slowly began to fade over the next 12 months. The brightening event was similar to that of a supernova, but the rise to the peak was much slower, taking nearly one and a half months.

"The longer the event lasted, the more excited we got, since we realized that this is either a very unusual supernova or an entirely different type of event, such as a star being ripped apart by a black hole," said team member Armin Rest of the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore, Md.

By measuring the increase in brightness, the astronomers calculated the black hole's mass to be several million suns, which is comparable to the size of our Milky Way's black hole.

Spectroscopic observations with the MMT (Multiple Mirror Telescope) Observatory on Mount Hopkins in Arizona showed that the black hole was swallowing lots of helium. Spectroscopy divides light into its rainbow colors, which yields an object's characteristics, such as its temperature and gaseous makeup.

"The glowing helium was a tracer for an extraordinarily hot accretion event," Gezari said. "So that set off an alarm for us. And, the fact that no hydrogen was found set off a big alarm that this was not typical gas. You can't find gas like that lying around near the center of a galaxy. It's processed gas that has to have come from a stellar core. There's nothing about this event that could be easily explained by any other phenomenon."

The observed speed of the gas also linked the material to a black hole's gravitational pull. MMT measurements revealed that the gas was moving at more than 20 million miles an hour (over 32 million kilometers an hour). However, measurements of the speed of gas in the interstellar medium reveal velocities of only about 224,000 miles an hour (360,000 kilometers an hour).

"The place we also see these kinds of velocities are in supernova explosions," Rest said. "But the fact that it is still shining in ultraviolet light is incompatible with any supernova we know."

To completely rule out the possibility of an active nucleus flaring up in the galaxy, the team used NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory to study the hot gas. Chandra showed that the characteristics of the gas didn't match those from an active galactic nucleus.

"This is the first time where we have so many pieces of evidence, and now we can put them all together to weigh the perpetrator (the black hole) and determine the identity of the unlucky star that fell victim to it," Gezari said. "These observations also give us clues to what evidence to look for in the future to find this type of event."
The Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI) in Baltimore, Md., is operated for NASA by the Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy, Inc., in Washington, D.C. STScI conducts science operations for the Hubble Space Telescope and is the science and mission operations center for the James Webb Space Telescope.

The California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, Calif., leads the Galaxy Evolution Explorer mission and is responsible for science operations and data analysis. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, also in Pasadena, manages the mission and built the science instrument. The mission was developed under NASA's Explorers Program managed by the Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. Researchers sponsored by Yonsei University in South Korea and the Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales (CNES) in France collaborated on this mission.
The video of this magnificent event that happened over 2.5 billion years ago (while our ancestors were still microbes) can be found here. It compresses some 15 months of data into 30 seconds of video. Keep in mind, this is a star with a size near that of our own sun completely shredded in two days and consumed over the following 18 months (still think the election is important?).

I could watch this video all night.







Post#620 at 08-17-2012 02:54 AM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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I grabbed this from another thread and put it here. I hope no one minds too much.

Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Well certainly the human potential movement and new age movement need to revive again if there is to be any hope. Not much higher consciousness on THIS board, that's for sure! Very out of touch, as many younger people today are, with the real juice and meat of the Awakening. But there's always hope for the new consciousness to break through again. It's the only real alternative to robotization, not only outside humans but among humans.
Eric, I don't know if there's such a thing as a new consciousness. I remember you once stated how amazing it was that trees knew when to drop their leaves(or something along those lines). My answer is that they are Honest(Non-False). The environment changes and gives them signals to adapt their behavior. IOW, their priorities change. Evergreens don't drop their leaves; That's simply how they're built. Eventhough we might not fully understand it all, it's natural. That type of consciousness, or at least our opportunity to respect its existence and mystery, well, I don't know if that will ever change.

Quote Originally Posted by Eric
Playwrite, that song video, with an ad for Obama posted next to it, gives me hope! Obama is bringing in the new age! I got the feelin'! How's that for an idea to mess with the cynical views here, including mine own. But his handsome smile with Michelle beside him does invoke the same idealism. Naivete is enjoyable sometimes, if we don't take it too far. But speaking of anti-cynicism, and going against prevalent opinion on this forum/message board, I say we can all look to JB too, and say:
Again with the anti-cynicism. Cynicism can be a cleansing fire that burns-away falsehoods. It can also burn the house down. It plays a role in the scheme(ie: Air, Fire, Earth, Water) as I believe you are well aware. So why with the anti-cynicism poo-poo? I guess you're just playing your part?

Here's an example from me:A true Cynic(in the classical-sense of the word).

Using the Happy/Angry-dichotomy: The meaning of life is not to be Happy. It is to not be Not-Happy. Although they may appear so, they are not the same. Any guesses why?

Prince

PS: I decided to edit my initial post because I used the term goal instead of meaning. I believe goal is less-correct so I edited myself. I also added that I'm using the Happy/Angry-dichotomy. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused, but I have forgiven myself, so...."-"
Last edited by princeofcats67; 08-18-2012 at 12:17 AM.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."







Post#621 at 08-17-2012 12:36 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Eric, I don't know if there's such a thing as a new consciousness. I remember you once stated how amazing it was that trees knew when to drop their leaves(or something along those lines). My answer is that they are Honest(Non-False). The environment changes and gives them signals to adapt their behavior. IOW, their priorities change. Evergreens don't drop their leaves; That's simply how they're built. Eventhough we might not fully understand it all, it's natural. That type of consciousness, or at least our opportunity to respect its existence and mystery, well, I don't know if that will ever change.
I do think there is an evolution of consciousness going on. I don't agree with the traditional Darwinian view of evolution, nor with the traditional Christian view that says the world and living things in it were "built" (the usual word is "made"). Trees and all living things are conscious beings, and contemplating that gives me my appreciation of the consciousness of trees whereby they know when to drop their leaves. It is not a mechanical thing, and not "natural" in the sense that it is obedience to "natural law" that "makes" them drop their leaves, or "the environment changes" that causes them to "adapt." Perhaps in your appreciation of freedom you may be able to see that. I don't mean it's an act of will like humans might do, but it takes free consciousness in order to "adapt." Trees have developed the ability to drop their leaves, and it somehow fits the needs of the environment and even of we humans for shade in the Summer and openness to the Sun in Winter. There is intelligence that shapes and drives the world and living beings. So humans, in our time, are awakening to a higher consciousness than we have had before. At the same time, it is not something that never existed; just as we exist before we wake up in the morning. 2T "Awakenings" are when most of this advancement takes place, but 4T/Crises play a role in a less pleasant way too.


Again with the anti-cynicism. Cynicism can be a cleansing fire that burns-away falsehoods. It can also burn the house down. It plays a role in the scheme(ie: Air, Fire, Earth, Water) as I believe you are well aware. So why with the anti-cynicism poo-poo? I guess your just playing your part?

Here's an example from me:A true Cynic(in the classical-sense of the word).

Using the Happy/Angry-dichotomy: The meaning of life is not to be Happy. It is to not be Not-Happy. Although they may appear so, they are not the same. Any guesses why?
You can look at things that way; I don't see any need to do so myself. Cynicism is turning away from optimism because you can't see the possibilities in life and have decided that there's no hope. Classical cynicism and not being not-happy is better than that, perhaps, and seeing through falsehoods (including false ideologies) is a good thing, but being happy is better than not being not happy--- as long as its genuine and honest too.

Genuine also means, literally, from the heart. Again, our scientific and sense-based world view (which often is at the root of cynicism today) prevents some of our friends here from seeing that the heart is a chakra (soul center), and the center of our being, and not merely a blood pump. But it profits me (and singers like JB) to know that being aware of my heart gives me a greater sense of life, and a greater ability to be authentic and warm, in spite of the overwhelming power of my runaway intellect and the primitive fears that so often drive it and our lives. You might take Wayne Dyer's experiment, and point to yourself. Then notice where you are pointing.

The scientific world view of materialism is false when not balanced and enlightened by the other three directions on the symbolic philosophers wheel. You might enjoy the questionnaire and see where your "priorities" lie.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#622 at 08-17-2012 01:58 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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08-17-2012, 01:58 PM #622
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Eric, by thinking that there is some intelligence behinds the adaptations of dicidious trees puts you in the same superstitious group as creationists. You are simply denying fact, and that makes it as impossible to argue with you as it is arguing with a creationist who insists that the universe is only 6000 years old despite all evidence you the contrary.

One cannot have a reasonable discussion with irrational people.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#623 at 08-17-2012 05:25 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Eric, by thinking that there is some intelligence behinds the adaptations of dicidious trees puts you in the same superstitious group as creationists. You are simply denying fact, and that makes it as impossible to argue with you as it is arguing with a creationist who insists that the universe is only 6000 years old despite all evidence you the contrary.

One cannot have a reasonable discussion with irrational people.
Eric is essentially a mystic, so assume allegory when logic seems absent. There is a lot to be said for allegory. There are some things that cannot be addressed head-on, and the STEM fields have few if any tools to apply to those issues. I say that as an INTP, more or less locked into a frame where logic predominates.

I come from an artsy-fartsy family, so I've seen the benefit of alogical thinking, even though I'm not very good at it myself.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#624 at 08-17-2012 05:52 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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08-17-2012, 05:52 PM #624
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Eric, by thinking that there is some intelligence behinds the adaptations of dicidious trees puts you in the same superstitious group as creationists. You are simply denying fact, and that makes it as impossible to argue with you as it is arguing with a creationist who insists that the universe is only 6000 years old despite all evidence you the contrary.

One cannot have a reasonable discussion with irrational people.
Odin, I suggest checking out this article (by me): http://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com...os-and-mythos/

Eric often seems to confuse logos and mythos himself, expecting a purely logos endeavor such as science to employ mythic thinking, not seeing that this would ruin it. This however doesn't mean that mythic thinking isn't appropriate for the purposes it serves.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#625 at 08-17-2012 08:33 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
Odin, I suggest checking out this article (by me): http://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com...os-and-mythos/

Eric often seems to confuse logos and mythos himself, expecting a purely logos endeavor such as science to employ mythic thinking, not seeing that this would ruin it. This however doesn't mean that mythic thinking isn't appropriate for the purposes it serves.
Oh, I read your blog post and I completely agree with it. Eric's problem is exactly as you said, using mythic thinking where it does not belong.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
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