Wow, neat video; and 157,000 views on the first day! That's almost as good as Justin Bieber, with an erection!

Of course, using new age logic, I merely have to point out that the hexagon is part of my symbol for the philosophers wheel; the 6 schools of philosophy of the wheel. The 6-pointed star is a major esoteric symbol! Even the chariot of the gods! Being a silly new ager, that's all I need to do. And you, copperman, have still not done the questionnaire so we can see just how much of a materialist you are!

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

On the following day after her initial discovery, that chick painted her left finger-nails yellow and has two different colored sleeves. I believe she may have drank a bit too much coffee. In "New-Age"-speak, I believe it may have been a bit too much guarana.

Prince

Oh yes, she needs to layeth off the crack, but then if she did, her videos would be twice as long. Eric will enjoy this video though she probably talks to fast for him. Vi (Victora) is a bit of an odd duck though most young, probably-genius level IQs are. They tend to mellow out with age. Here is an interesting interview with her. Around 4:45 she gives her thoughts on the problems with education in America (hint: it's the system ).

The Minute Physics guy is also pretty hyper as you can see. I'm sure their colleagues enjoy the peace and quiet when these two finally take an afternoon to sit and draw.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Wow, neat video; and 157,000 views on the first day! That's almost as good as Justin Bieber, with an erection!

Of course, using new age logic, I merely have to point out that the hexagon is part of my symbol for the philosophers wheel; the 6 schools of philosophy of the wheel. The 6-pointed star is a major esoteric symbol! Even the chariot of the gods! Being a silly new ager, that's all I need to do. And you, copperman, have still not done the questionnaire so we can see just how much of a materialist you are!

Not a hexagon Eric, a Hexaflexagon. Flexagons are multi-dimensional mathematical concepts which can be represented logically using formulas and equations.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Oh yes, she needs to layeth off the crack, but then if she did, her videos would be twice as long. Eric will enjoy this video though she probably talks to fast for him.

Her voice is the best thing about it, but it's about copperfield's mistaken point of view that we already argued over.

I notice she also issued this alternative view
http://youtu.be/wsOXvQn3JuE

no fooling!

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Not a hexagon Eric, a Hexaflexagon. Flexagons are multi-dimensional mathematical concepts which can be represented logically using formulas and equations.

No that's for old agers, not silly new agers like me.

Oh here's a nice new age philosophers' hexagon I saw today:
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...97047333_n.jpg

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Her voice is the best thing about it, but it's about copperfield's mistaken point of view that we already argued over.

I notice she also issued this alternative view
http://youtu.be/wsOXvQn3JuE

no fooling!

Oh Eric.... I'm laughing so hard right now, but I should probably let you off the hook on this. Tell you what, I'll give you a hint: Look at the date she posted the video you linked.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Oh Eric.... I'm laughing so hard right now, but I should probably let you off the hook on this. Tell you what, I'll give you a hint: Look at the date she posted the video you linked.

Only fools would look at that date!

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Okay functioning mind. Explain the Hexaflexagon using silly new-age logic.

1,674,547 views in 3 days. Justin Bieber eat your heart out!

New agers like this one better. Except of course the part at the end where she says it is not cosmic and wonderous. Why not? April fool again. Materialist worldview: dismiss and ignore all miracles. Take the wonder out of things. I was almost going to link it to my own page until that last remark.

Boy, though, new agers also wish they had as many you tube fans as she does. How can old agers like herself account for the attractiveness of her own voice and timing?

I liked Prince's comment about the "real world." Business or no business; money or no money; it's all real. And Bob's, "does it exist if you don't count it?" "Or does it make a sound?" said Prince.

Money is numbers, or as playwrite says, computer blips or keystrokes, and the question we debated on this thread was whether money, numbers, math etc. are real; part of the "real world" or not. And now also whether we have a candidate who is real; if Rmoney is real.

Math, money and Rmoney are real, in the sense that the world of concepts exists in our minds. And if Plato is right, they have a "reality" that is more fundamental than the changing world of the senses that "imitates" it. This is also called archetypes, which T4T and Generations depend on, and even Marxists like kinser depend on. For Plato, in fact, math exists in the realm of the soul or consciousness; that is, the timeless and unchanging, eternal world.

But math has a reality problem when it comes to applying it to the world we experience. That is what my reference to Zeno and the uncertainty principle is about. Try as you will, you will never find a line on a measuring stick that will indicate an exact inch. That line will always have width and depth, no matter how microscopic you make it. Dimensions are a mathematical construct, and exist only as such. There are really no points or lines in the world as we experience it. Try to divide anything from anything else, and tell me where the line "really" is.

The number 1 refers to 1 "thing," and 2 to 2 "things," which you can count; but there are "really" no two identical things, and no one thing separated from other "things." In an equation, 2+2 =4 whether 2 refers to 2 apples or 2 unicorns; it makes no difference if unicorns "really" exist or not; mathematical truth does not equal reality. Mathematics is thus a way of cutting up the world into things, when in reality the world is not cut up into pieces at all, but all of one piece. In this way math is more akin to the material world, rather than the spiritual one, and in fact the word matter and meter have the same root. We only see a "material world" existing, if you can see it divided into "solid-like" things, which somehow "occupy space" and thus don't interpenetrate. The "material" world is actually an abstract world of measurement. We can see the philosophers wheel developing here, because math is half-way between the spiritual and the material, on the R side of the circle opposed to the fluid and changing world of existence, and can be seen to exist in both the spiritual and the material.

Thus the uncertainty principle applies too. You can't pin down position and momentum at the same time. You can't measure the world with certainty, since it is moving and changing all the time. You can't step into the same stream twice, as Heraclitus said. It doesn't hold still long enough to measure it. And Zeno applies, for although you can assume that 0.9999999... is a way to write the number 1, in the actual changing world, if you don't actually write out all the 9s, you don't know whether they stop, or whether there might be an 8 in there somewhere. But if you step outside time and space, into Plato's unchanging eternal world, the spiritual world, then you can use infinity in your equations and make 0.9999999999... equal to one, as a concept. Ironically, it is only in the whole and undivided, eternal world, beyond all mathematics, that you can have a valid concept of numbers OR of infinity.

In this video, James Grime, the numberphile, explains that some kinds of infinity are bigger than others. You can at least make a partial list of integers and fractions, of "rational" numbers of "ratios," but not a list of "real" numbers. The latter is a "bigger infinity." So, I think, you can't use those kinds of "real" numbers in equations, the way you can those which can be substituted for integers. It's a different kind of infinity, even though in the end, infinity is still infinity.

Math is real only if the soul is real; the first cause of all causes, the timeless here and now that you are; the only time anything can be caused, which must therefore be self-caused or spontaneous. It does not apply to the world of empirical experience, or to anything that moves (and thus is in time), except within a level of uncertainty. And yet it applies, within that proviso; the world "imitates" it, as we see with spirals in plants and the fibonacci proportion in our own body. We can also use it to describe the cause and effect of mechanical dead motion too, at least within the limits of relativity and uncertainty-- and mindful that in reality there are no causes except the timeless first cause, or life itself, which is the only way in which math can be real.

..........

Remember, science has as many, if not more, ghosts and chimeras, as any philosophy, religion or theology does.

You can bring in the soul or a god or God to explain anything that science hasn't found a cause for. Or you can bring in matter, things, black cats and other objects, solidity, space and time, energy, strings, quanta, or mechanical causes, to explain anything that you can't explain with a god or a soul. It's the same thing.

They are all nothing but symbols in our language that we use to represent our experience. That's all they are.

Meanwhile, experience is what it is.

Saying that things happen "by chance" or "probability" is only to say that things happen by mechanical cause and effect, except we can't know what those causes are.

Saying things are caused by a soul or a god is to localize the cause in a concept we have for our experience.

Recognizing that events happen spontaneously and freely without prior cause (not merely by chance) is to come closer to reality. There is no cause that doesn't have to be traced in turn to another cause, and finally a first cause. The first cause must be free, and it must exist now. The big bang was uncaused, according to Hawking. It was spontaneous.

There may be a God or some kind of principle that was attracting, guiding or causing the universe and the organic molecules in it to organize in just the right way for them to come alive. We can't prove that there was, or that there wasn't. There is evidence that the universe and the Earth are organized in a way that they and the life within them could not happen unless things were organized just right, by whatever means or by no means at all, to a degree beyond all probability. And whatever great things humans can be or do, exist first, and in greater degree, in whatever we came from.

But if you don't want to admit this, there is no need to say that what is freely-uncaused or spontaneous is "supernatural." We experience it every moment. Where there is more freedom, there is more life. It evolves and develops; evolution is the evolution of consciousness starting from the basic spontaneity of the universe that is inherent in it. And living beings individualize; thus "souls" exist. But not as separate beings. Everything is connected, and caused by everything else together. Self and not-self are mutually dependent. Our basic identity is the Whole.

Science boosters here sound like this: There is nothing invisible, because I can't see it. There is nothing immeasurable, because I can't measure it. There is nothing uncountable, because I can't count it. There is nothing spiritual, because it's not material.

Evidence for life, the soul, the divine, the psychic, the afterlife, reincarnation, exists; but it may be impossible to account for it by reducing it to what it isn't: the dead, the material, the profane, the sensory, this life only.....

Here's one of my "thinklings" just for you, Eric.

A Lesson in Mathematics

1+1=2. This is regular-old Math.

1+1=3(or probably better stated as: 1+1=>2). This is some sort of quasi-Hegelian Triad,
"The Whole is greater than the Sum of its Parts", Emergence-related thingy.

And my personal fave:
1+1=1. This is some sort of "I Art Thou"-BS!, Spiritual-Math thingy, also sometimes referred-to by me as:
"The Bargain"!


Prince

Ever seen light move in slow motion? Now you have.

Religious People Less Driven By Compassion Than Are Atheists And Agnostics, Study Says

A fascinating lecture on Quantum Gravity:

Originally Posted by Odin

A fascinating lecture on Quantum Gravity:

Pretty decent job of explaining the analogy of the universe as a hologram. Too bad the New Agers mistake analogies for truth though.

The holographic principle is that you can get the information about the whole from any part of the whole. It is the same as the hermetic principle, on which alchemy and astrology are based: as above, so below. It is the same as fractiles. The principle is useful in explaining mathematical and physical patterns, and in designing certain technologies. It is also a useful analogy for the soul. The soul is our own consciousness of life, as we experience it. That is different from an objective test, which is meant to demonstrate a fact that can be observed by others as well as yourself. A soul is a fractile or hologram, because each of us is the universe in miniature, or microcosm. That is how we experience ourselves. We are not isolated individuals with only particular characteristics, but a unique expression of the whole, in miniature. Just asserting this does not make it true, but our experience of it does. No-one who observes him/herself carefully will arrive at any other conclusion than this.

From a physical perspective, our bodies do not function in isolation any more than our souls do, but are entirely composed of the same energy as every other being. That is a demonstrable fact. So there is no basis for experiencing ourselves as isolated things. That idea is imposed on us by society for industrial or legal purposes. In fact, however, we are each the whole cosmos, experienced as a unity within ourselves, as well as a unity with the environment and all that is. That is the holographic principle.

Empirical facts establish useful patterns that may be repeated, and this is science, which gives us knowledge of the world's behavior. But no empirical fact is a true principle, which is universal. A fact is limited to a probability of occurrances that may repeat, but only as far as we know from observations so-far made. A truth is a principle that can be applied to any situation. Empirical studies may lead us to discover a universal truth, and so do philosophy, mysticism, the arts, and mathematics.

An example of such a truth, is that all that we experience that we call "physical," is in fact energy. This was demonstrated by Einstein in his famous equation. If all of us and all "things" are energy, then they are not physical things moved about according to mechanical "laws." Physical masses or things are static; energy is dynamic power. These so-called laws derived from Newton and other materialists in The West are merely means whereby we can transform the world, which is an organic, living whole (of which we are living expressions), into a machine dedicated to human domination for human utility. Mechanical principles look upon the world not as energy, but as masses moved about (or "caused") by forces from outside of the masses. The least energetic (or as I say, the most "dead") aspects of this energy can be made to behave according to these mechanical ideas, and thereby shaped for human utility. But the wrong analogy is to take these utilities and consider the universe in their image. No, the world is not a machine, and machines are not holograms. In a hologram, any part is the whole in miniature. In a machine (the idea of masses moved by forces for a human purpose), parts are interchangeable, and are only parts.

Energy is not masses moved about by forces moved about by forces ad infinitum. If the world is energy, then the idea of physical masses moved about by forces is a chimera only; a fantasy, and has nothing to do with reality. So there is no need or justification to reduce everything to it. Energy is here and now, and ultimately without cause; spontaneous and free. It is indeterminate, which means more than just that we can't entirely know how things behave. Spirit or soul is just energy as we experience it. As far as I know, our own experience of ourselves is not verifiable in a measurable way by external observers. But no objective observation consists of anything more than a group of individuals experiencing. And we experience other beings directly too, prior to making measurements in controlled operational experiments to determine specific questions.

Spirit is not an external God or Soul intervening and causing things to happen in Nature, or an anthropomorphic superman dictator on a throne somewhere. It is energy, which is all that is, as we experience it, now and always. "God" or the divine is the highest experience that we can conceive, within ourselves. God exists, simply because our highest conception must include its own existence (St. Anselm). It is the attractor, the source of all, the omega point of evolution. In is inherent in every being, and the principle of the oneness of all. It is the most intimate part of ourselves. Jesus said, "before Abraham was, I am." He was not speaking of himself as an individual, different from other individuals. He was speaking of the experience we each have of ourselves, as we truly are. Christianity just decided that it was more useful for purposes of control to restrict the experience of God to one person, Jesus, and to put him on a pedestal of authority whom people should obey. In fact, however, Jesus was a mystic who experienced the truth that we all experience, all the time.

Silents and Boomers (also using other ideas from other saecula too) developed this new paradigm to roll back the mechanization and depersonalization of our world into a dead, lonely, disenchanted machine in which everything is a rational commodity or a number, and in which people are only objects to be used by others and not ends in themselves. At their peril do Xers and Millies react against this new paradigm as "new age flim-flam," and return us to the mechanized, dead and enslaved robotic society that existed before the Awakening. Just as many Xers, Boomers and Silents have at everyone's peril returned us to the oppressive "trickle-down" "free-enterprise" ideology that enslaved us to robber-baron capitalism. Reacting and going back to the old paradigms from which we have been liberated, does not serve us. Instead, we need to move forward into the spiritual green vision that is our destiny, and our task to bring that new vision into reality, if we are to thrive in an alive and sustainable world.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Energy is not masses moved about by forces moved about by forces ad infinitum. If the world is energy, then the idea of physical masses moved about by forces is a chimera only; a fantasy, and has nothing to do with reality. So there is no need or justification to reduce everything to it. Energy is here and now, and ultimately without cause; spontaneous and free. It is indeterminate, which means more than just that we can't entirely know how things behave.

Matter and energy are two forms of the same thing. Is a light a beam? Yes! Is it a particle? Yes! It is not indeterminate, and we can predict how basic forms of energy will behave. As our knowledge grows, so too will our ability to understand more complex arrangements of matter and energy.

Anything a magician can dream of, a scientist can create. Are we having this conversation through crystal balls? Not quite, but we are staring in to electrified liquid crystal displays plugged in to a processor that consists of electrified silicon runes etched to precision on a scale that cannot even be seen by the human eye. All of these processors are then connected by a vast network of copper and fiber-optic tunnels designed to carry very specific energy impulses across the world in a matter of milliseconds.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Matter and energy are two forms of the same thing. Is a light a beam? Yes! Is it a particle? Yes! It is not indeterminate, and we can predict how basic forms of energy will behave. As our knowledge grows, so too will our ability to understand more complex arrangements of matter and energy.

It's quite clear that energy is indeterminate; we only know probabilities. You can't measure something that's moving, or reduce it to an immobile and separate thing; there are no things at all. What we need to realize is that this indeterminacy is not simply a matter of not knowing enough. It is natural and built-in. If we realize that matter is energy, then matter is only condensed energy. You can't reduce energy to matter; you must reduce matter to energy. Otherwise there'd be no energy at all. Nuclear "particles" hold together with incredible force. Energy is not this solid dead immobile stuff that materialists try to reduce our consciousness and free will to. Energy is powerful and dynamic, and ultimately it has no cause other than itself. Matter is even more a chimera than spirit and soul. Spirit is just how we as evolved, living, free conscious beings experience this energy, as ourselves. Rather than reduce life to death, we need the other view that says that what is seemingly "dead" aspires to and evolves into life.

Anything a magician can dream of, a scientist can create. Are we having this conversation through crystal balls? Not quite, but we are staring in to electrified liquid crystal displays plugged in to a processor that consists of electrified silicon runes etched to precision on a scale that cannot even be seen by the human eye. All of these processors are then connected by a vast network of copper and fiber-optic tunnels designed to carry very specific energy impulses across the world in a matter of milliseconds.

Without consciousness, there are no such dreams. Anything an artist can dream of, an artist can create. We need art more than science now, IMO. We have enough scientifically-created high-tech gadgets already. We should not be so over-awed by technology that we mistake it for the universe out of which we make it. Quantum physics was necessary to build these things, and quantum physics (or "mechanics" if you prefer) has probability and indeterminacy built in to all its calculations. And remember, technology can only make machines do our will because they are made from what is relatively dead (or unconscious). There is enough energy in that form so that it will obey we who are alive and understand its workings.

I like string theory, which says that the smallest known aspects of Nature are "massless" vibrations. Back to music and art! But thanks for your ideas John. Good food for thought.

I never cease getting teary-eyed when I watch this:





I wish Carl were still with us. It was his birthday, yesterday.

.............

It is not "intellectual" to have an unnecessarily narrow view of what reality or the universe is, one that ignores your very self and your own experience of that reality.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

It's quite clear that energy is indeterminate; we only know probabilities. You can't measure something that's moving, or reduce it to an immobile and separate thing; there are no things at all. What we need to realize is that this indeterminacy is not simply a matter of not knowing enough. It is natural and built-in. If we realize that matter is energy, then matter is only condensed energy. You can't reduce energy to matter; you must reduce matter to energy.

Further proof that you have no idea what you are talking about. Care to try to explain to me what the Large Hadron Collider is and how it created what were likely Higgs-bosons the last few years?

Otherwise there'd be no energy at all. Nuclear "particles" hold together with incredible force. Energy is not this solid dead immobile stuff that materialists try to reduce our consciousness and free will to. Energy is powerful and dynamic, and ultimately it has no cause other than itself. Matter is even more a chimera than spirit and soul. Spirit is just how we as evolved, living, free conscious beings experience this energy, as ourselves. Rather than reduce life to death, we need the other view that says that what is seemingly "dead" aspires to and evolves into life.

Of course we can add evolution to the long list of topics you pretend to understand.

Without consciousness, there are no such dreams. Anything an artist can dream of, an artist can create.

Have one build me a perpetual motion machine.

We need art more than science now, IMO. We have enough scientifically-created high-tech gadgets already. We should not be so over-awed by technology that we mistake it for the universe out of which we make it. Quantum physics was necessary to build these things, and quantum physics (or "mechanics" if you prefer) has probability and indeterminacy built in to all its calculations.

We already know that you don't understand this topic.

And remember, technology can only make machines do our will because they are made from what is relatively dead (or unconscious). There is enough energy in that form so that it will obey we who are alive and understand its workings.

Further proof that you don't actually understand what energy is.

I like string theory, which says that the smallest known aspects of Nature are "massless" vibrations. Back to music and art! But thanks for your ideas John. Good food for thought.

Based on your track record so far, I seriously doubt that you understand string theory beyond the simplistic recognition of a few words taken completely out of context.