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Thread: Philosophy, religion, science and turnings - Page 68







Post#1676 at 06-27-2014 04:39 PM by Vandal-72 [at Idaho joined Jul 2012 #posts 1,101]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I'm a proponent of Max Tegmark's take on the Many Worlds Interpretation, myself. I just thought it was an interesting article, and a refreshing antidote to Copenhagenism and all the Quantum Woo it has spawned.
I agree that it was interesting, but I think the author of the article way oversold the revolutionary aspect of the research.







Post#1677 at 06-27-2014 04:55 PM by Vandal-72 [at Idaho joined Jul 2012 #posts 1,101]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
We need to change that mine. It is cooking the planet.
Where exactly do you picture the materials for your precious solar panels and wind turbines will be coming from? This is one of those reasons I and others think you are an idiot. You do not acknowledge the actual complexity of the world we live in. We need some fossil fuels as at least feedstock for plastic and other synthetic materials production.

That mine is the direct result of Vandal's world view-- and yours too if you believe it.

Vandal's assertions do not have any basis, and are not justified or demonstrated by anything he says.
That's why I rely upon the evidence gathered through actual scientific research.

So why just believe him? Just because he's a science teacher?
Not to speak for others; but, maybe they have decided that overall I've consistently backed my statements with relevant, trustworthy sources? Or, maybe they themselves know enough science to be able to recognize when I've caught you out in your pretending? Or, maybe they just think I'm funnier than you?

Acceptance from authority. Kinda like, argument from authority.
Says the guy who has vehemently claimed that I should accept Sheldrake's statements because he's a "renowned scientist and researcher."

Bowing down to science dogma. Come on Rags. Think for yourself. Don't feed out of the mouth of a demented ideologue.
[sing] Projection , jection, how's that reflection? [/sing]







Post#1678 at 06-27-2014 07:04 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
We need to change that mine. It is cooking the planet.
EDIT 1 OK, so it is a coal mine after all. Coal can be used as a feedstock source for stuff. One doesn't really have to burn the stuff. Same for oil.


That mine is the direct result of Vandal's world view-- and yours too if you believe it.
Yeah , whatever. I at least know where some of the electricy in my house comes from.


Vandal's assertions do not have any basis, and are not justified or demonstrated by anything he says. So why just believe him? Just because he's a science teacher?
Uh. He pointed out a screwup on my part. I think that counts for something.


Acceptance from authority. Kinda like, argument from authority. Bowing down to science dogma. Come on Rags. Think for yourself. Don't feed out of the mouth of a demented ideologue.
EDIT


Remove dodo award. Vandal pointed out that Rags fucked up.

Huh? See above. Lessee.

1. Eric sees a picture of a mine.
2. Eric concludes any mine bakes the planet.
3. Eric should thank Vandal for pointing out the fact that Rags fucked up.
Last edited by Ragnarök_62; 06-27-2014 at 07:51 PM.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#1679 at 06-27-2014 07:22 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Quote Originally Posted by Vandal-72 View Post
Where exactly do you picture the materials for your precious solar panels and wind turbines will be coming from?
My guess is Eric is a typical NIMBY. Don't you know everything and I mean everything comes from 18 wheelers or grocery shelves?

[sing] Projection , jection, how's that reflection? [/sing][/QUOTE]

To the tune of



Eric, look at the "OR" car. That black stuff looks exactly like coal.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#1680 at 06-27-2014 07:23 PM by Vandal-72 [at Idaho joined Jul 2012 #posts 1,101]
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Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
How do copper mines cook the planet? OK, so we stop mining copper, then I'd like to pay you a visit and mine you house for copper since you're whining about the alternative. Yeah, I know Detroit's been a favorite place for what is known as "stripping", but I'd be glad to add San Jose to the list. I think there's a bunch of Eric like folks as well, whose houses I can use for the Rag's copper mining in San Jose Inc. LLC, Pty., HMG, etc. etc. I'm sure that would be a profitable operation. It's a job creation thingie as well. I'll hire homeless dudes to strip copper and , hell other useful metals from San Jose abodes. So Eric, no like copper mines, well, OK fine. Eric forfeits copper.
FYI: Initially I thought the same thing as you here. On a hunch, I did a reverse image search. Turns out the image is of a coal mine in Australia, not a copper mine. The truck in the foreground is removing overburden. You can see the coal seem in the upper right quarter of the image.

Yeah , whatever. I at least know where some of the copper in my house comes from. You, apparently can't figure out what kind of mine is being depicted in pictures and then prattle off nonsense from ignorance.

* dodo award for Eric ( you just keep adding to your flock) Amazing isn't it?




Why the hell are you bringing Vandal into this? I minored in geology so I learned this shit from my professors, not Vandal. Sheesh. Anyone who took any geology class knows that coal is black. The mine in the picture didn't have any black shit.

Huh? See above. Lessee.

1. Eric sees a picture of a mine.
2. Eric conclude any mine bakes the planet.
3. Rags awards Eric another dodo for thinking weird stuff.
Last edited by Vandal-72; 06-27-2014 at 07:27 PM.







Post#1681 at 06-27-2014 07:41 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Quote Originally Posted by Vandal-72 View Post
FYI: Initially I thought the same thing as you here. On a hunch, I did a reverse image search. Turns out the image is of a coal mine in Australia, not a copper mine. The truck in the foreground is removing overburden. You can see the coal seem in the upper right quarter of the image.
Yup. My bad. I'll still strip mine San Jose since they won't need the copper without coal.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#1682 at 06-27-2014 10:12 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by apollonian View Post
Odin: there can't be "many worlds," for reality is one ("monism"), being either existent or non-existent, thus objective (Aristotle) or not--subjectivist (Plato).
The other timelines are just as much part of reality as this one.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1683 at 06-28-2014 12:04 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
My guess is Eric is a typical NIMBY. Don't you know everything and I mean everything comes from 18 wheelers or grocery shelves?
HA! Now you and Vandal are claiming that solar panels and groceries come from coal mines! That's mainstream dogmatic science for ya!
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1684 at 06-28-2014 12:11 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
EDIT 1 OK, so it is a coal mine after all. Coal can be used as a feedstock source for stuff. One doesn't really have to burn the stuff. Same for oil.
Ah, now that's a new source for the carbon cycle! So, blend it with some chocolate and make a shake. Very appetizing. Hmmmmm; no thanks. Let's just leave the useless stuff in the ground.

Yeah , whatever. I at least know where some of the electricity in my house comes from.
It takes a high level of philosophical insight to realize that if you have a world view that says "everything is about making machines" and making them work for us, and that the whole world is like that; that this creates a world that consists of black holes in the ground. And everything gets sucked in to that black dogma. This unquestioned religion of academia and public media that has us all hooked on a view of the world as dead. yadda yadda yadda....

Uh. He pointed out a screwup on my part. I think that counts for something.
That was not the issue. The issue is that you went along with his views on physics, without question, leading to your use of that image-- which was obviously a coal mine, and so why would you need Vandal to point out the obvious to you? No, Vandal is useless as always; he is a pathetic fuck-up.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1685 at 06-28-2014 12:52 AM by Vandal-72 [at Idaho joined Jul 2012 #posts 1,101]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
HA! Now you and Vandal are claiming that solar panels and groceries come from coal mines! That's mainstream dogmatic science for ya!
Strawman is straw like.







Post#1686 at 06-28-2014 12:58 AM by Vandal-72 [at Idaho joined Jul 2012 #posts 1,101]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Ah, now that's a new source for the carbon cycle! So, blend it with some chocolate and make a shake. Very appetizing. Hmmmmm; no thanks. Let's just leave the useless stuff in the ground.
Right after you go back through your home and remove all the plastics derived from petrochemical feedstocks.

It takes a high level of philosophical insight to realize that if you have a world view that says "everything is about making machines" and making them work for us, and that the whole world is like that; that this creates a world that consists of black holes in the ground. And everything gets sucked in to that black dogma. This unquestioned religion of academia and public media that has us all hooked on a view of the world as dead. yadda yadda yadda....
Says the guy using Internet technology. Do you really think the chemicals to make computer chips and solar collectors grow on trees?

That was not the issue. The issue is that you went along with his views on physics, without question, leading to your use of that image-- which was obviously a coal mine, and so why would you need Vandal to point out the obvious to you? No, Vandal is useless as always; he is a pathetic fuck-up.
Says the guy who claims that electrons travel at the speed of light and that the sound created from two rocks banging together qualifies as stimulus-response.







Post#1687 at 06-28-2014 11:44 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Vandal: go away, kid. Get off my lawn.

To everyone else, I say: what's wrong with quantum woo? Why not accept an interpretation that tells the truth? You can complain about new agers who claim more than is warranted from an interpretation of quantum theory, although you may be wrong. But since the whole universe is basically free, spontaneous frolic, an interpretation that implies that this is what the universe is, is just saying how things are. It makes a lot more sense, and is a lot simpler, than saying the universe "works" by determinist physical laws that are really just means of humans getting control over it and predicting it.

WOO IS TRUE
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1688 at 06-29-2014 12:53 AM by Vandal-72 [at Idaho joined Jul 2012 #posts 1,101]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Vandal: go away, kid. Get off my lawn.
The sooner you as a Boomer learn that this isn't your lawn, the better we'll all be.

To everyone else, I say: what's wrong with quantum woo?
It doesn't actually do what it's advocates claim it does.

Why not accept an interpretation that tells the truth?
Wish expression and confirmation bias is hardly truth.

You can complain about new agers who claim more than is warranted from an interpretation of quantum theory, although you may be wrong.
Good thing science has a way to differentiate between when someone is speaking accurately or spouting nonsense.

But since the whole universe is basically free, spontaneous frolic, an interpretation that implies that this is what the universe is, is just saying how things are.
Free, spontaneous frolic? Do you really not understand why so many of us think your understanding of science is beyond rudimentary?

It makes a lot more sense, and is a lot simpler, than saying the universe "works" by determinist physical laws that are really just means of humans getting control over it and predicting it.
Making "more sense" and being "simpler" is not actually evidence of being accurate.

WOO IS TRUE
War is peace.







Post#1689 at 06-29-2014 03:22 PM by TnT [at joined Feb 2005 #posts 2,005]
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As someone who performs ECG's every day at work, I am a bit skeptical. First of all, it is clear that there IS indeed electric energy pulsing about in a beating heart. It is further, as you probably know Rani, generated by chemical energy in the specialized cardiac muscle cells.

Thus, it would be no big surprise if one could measure both hearts if two people were in close physical contact with one another. You might need some specialized measuring devices, but I'm sure it could be done.

In fact, we EMT's sometimes joke around and hook some of the leads up on one of us and the rest of the leads on another, just for grins and giggles.

But ... given even the difficulties that we face in running diagnostic ECG's in moving ambulances, or on extremely obese patients, or a thousand other confounding circumstances ... I'm doubtful that the electric fields generated by one heart that is unconnected, and three feet away from another would have much impact.
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."







Post#1690 at 06-29-2014 03:58 PM by Vandal-72 [at Idaho joined Jul 2012 #posts 1,101]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Hey Vandal,

Since you are Mr. Science, I'm curious to know what you have to say about this:


http://www.heartmath.org/free-servic...unfolding.html

Woo or not woo?
Woo. They publish most of their "papers" in house. They have a mildly expensive product to sell you. They babble about information "encoded" in the electromagnetic field generated by a contracting muscle. Further, they claim that positive emotions change the information and that information can be transmitted to others. They also use a made up term called "coherence" to explain away anything that they can't actually explain or measure.

The Institute is taking well known physiological phenomena and attaching New Age verbiage to it for no real additive effect. The product they are selling can be bought by other suppliers as it is a typical tool used in studying/monitoring the physiology of the heart.







Post#1691 at 06-30-2014 12:07 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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What people here don't quite understand, is that Vandal is NOT "Mr. Science." He is Mr. Science Delusion. Or Mr. Materialist.

Look at this quote:

Eric: WOO IS TRUE
Vandal: War is peace.

Or another example when I said spirit is prior to matter, and he said, yeah, up is down.

It is just a philosophical point of view. And yet people think Vandal is giving evidence for his philosophy, or saying there's evidence for it. That's why Sheldrake's video on the Science Delusion is so important. NO, Sheldrake says; there IS no evidence for it.

And this is what philosophers have been pointing out for decades, from Henri Bergson to Erich Fromm and Alan Watts, and scientists like Heisenberg and Bohr. It's not something cooked up by Sheldrake. Even Plato had to point out these things to counter the materialists of his day. The argument goes all the way back to the beginning.

The important thing is to understand the dogmas, and realize they are just dogmas. They are not derived from experiments, but from philosophical and religious statements that have been assumed.

Sheldrake demonstrates this, in his other videos and in his books. The important thing here is not his own theories, but understanding that the dogmas he discusses are not based on any evidence. Nor is it up to him to re-measure the "constants" that the scientists already routinely-measure every year, but cleverly keep hidden.

Another dogma discussed above (not by Sheldrake, but related to the dogmas he discusses of fixed laws and unconscious matter), is the dogma that there's an objective reality independent of observation. That has been neatly flattened by quantum theory, although materialists don't want to admit it, and so just deny the scientific findings with interpretations of it that don't have the foggiest basis in any fact.

But it's a revelation for each of us to discover, whether through science or mystical experience, that it's all really happening in our minds, and that the universe is really conscious and alive at some level after all. The mechanical explanations are just tools; and they don't explain anything at all. They just put back the explanation, which can only be very partial anyway, to a prior explanation-- ad infinitum; reductio ad absurdum.

It is not the world and life itself that is absurd, as some Gen Xers have been led to believe (like our evocative new poster Tahara999 here ). No, it is just that the worldview we have been led to swallow is absurd, but that during the Awakening some people questioned and overturned it. The worldview creates the cynicism as its natural consequence.

" And I saw the great blunder my teachers have made, scientific delerium madness "
Last edited by Eric the Green; 06-30-2014 at 01:00 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1692 at 06-30-2014 01:46 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Eric, maybe you can provide some info about how they did those "HeartMath" studies? Their website is very short on details.
That's a link of yours that I would actually read.
Maybe someday; I don't have any inside info at the moment. Meanwhile, you can read my other links (or enjoy them )
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1693 at 06-30-2014 05:49 PM by Vandal-72 [at Idaho joined Jul 2012 #posts 1,101]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
What people here don't quite understand, is that Vandal is NOT "Mr. Science." He is Mr. Science Delusion. Or Mr. Materialist.

Look at this quote:

Eric: WOO IS TRUE
Vandal: War is peace.
Have you ever read a non-woo book in your life?

Or another example when I said spirit is prior to matter, and he said, yeah, up is down.

It is just a philosophical point of view. And yet people think Vandal is giving evidence for his philosophy, or saying there's evidence for it. That's why Sheldrake's video on the Science Delusion is so important. NO, Sheldrake says; there IS no evidence for it.
The ex-botanist then goes on to quote mine, lie and misrepresent the findings of physicists over the last century.

And this is what philosophers have been pointing out for decades, from Henri Bergson to Erich Fromm and Alan Watts, and scientists like Heisenberg and Bohr.
Are you referring to the quote mines Sheldrake presented about these scientists?

It's not something cooked up by Sheldrake. Even Plato had to point out these things to counter the materialists of his day. The argument goes all the way back to the beginning.

The important thing is to understand the dogmas, and realize they are just dogmas. They are not derived from experiments, but from philosophical and religious statements that have been assumed.
Says the guy who claims that everything in the universe is conscious but that the consciousness can't be measured or tested for.

Sheldrake demonstrates this, in his other videos and in his books. The important thing here is not his own theories, but understanding that the dogmas he discusses are not based on any evidence. Nor is it up to him to re-measure the "constants" that the scientists already routinely-measure every year, but cleverly keep hidden.
Conspiracy mongering is one of the indications of pseudoscience.

Another dogma discussed above (not by Sheldrake, but related to the dogmas he discusses of fixed laws and unconscious matter), is the dogma that there's an objective reality independent of observation. That has been neatly flattened by quantum theory, although materialists don't want to admit it, and so just deny the scientific findings with interpretations of it that don't have the foggiest basis in any fact.
And once again you repeat the lie that what you mean by the term "observation" is the same thing physicists mean. You are lying. Sheldrake is lying. And all the other New Agers who make this claim are lying.

But it's a revelation for each of us to discover, whether through science or mystical experience, that it's all really happening in our minds, and that the universe is really conscious and alive at some level after all.
Just like you always wished it was. How convenient.

The mechanical explanations are just tools; and they don't explain anything at all. They just put back the explanation, which can only be very partial anyway, to a prior explanation-- ad infinitum; reductio ad absurdum.
Don't use terms that you don't understand. You look like an idiot.

It is not the world and life itself that is absurd, as some Gen Xers have been led to believe (like our evocative new poster Tahara999 here ). No, it is just that the worldview we have been led to swallow is absurd, but that during the Awakening some people questioned and overturned it. The worldview creates the cynicism as its natural consequence.

" And I saw the great blunder my teachers have made, scientific delerium madness "
Go away "aging hippie liberal douche." No one cares what you think anymore.







Post#1694 at 06-30-2014 07:40 PM by Anc' Mariner [at San Dimas, California joined Feb 2014 #posts 258]
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Quote Originally Posted by apollonian View Post
Odin: there can't be "many worlds," for reality is one ("monism"), being either existent or non-existent, thus objective (Aristotle) or not--subjectivist (Plato).
Yes, we exist together in one single world in the present. But there are many conceivable timelines. Usually we are "stuck" in one determined narrative, learning from the mistakes of the past, working through the chores of history like a semester of homework assignments.

But every now and then, the rooster crows and the schoolbell rings (the Romans called it the Gallic cock --- Yeats called it Juno's peacock). We get a chance to make some key choices that determine our collective fates for another round of development.

Sometimes friends split, sometimes old enemies become new friends. Families are made that will be nourished for the course of many generations. Are we at that kind of crossroads? No way to tell for certain but something tells me---maybe yes. Or close enough to think for a second.
Last edited by Anc' Mariner; 06-30-2014 at 07:47 PM.







Post#1695 at 06-30-2014 09:43 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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If not at a major crossroads, at least at a fork in the road.







Post#1696 at 07-01-2014 12:26 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Vandal-72 View Post
I don't see how you connect dark matter and dark energy to de Broglie-Bohm. Going to have to ask to see your work on that one...
This assumes that wave propagation requires media, as the water example certainly does. It's not necessary. E-H waves propagate in free space ... as far as we know.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#1697 at 07-01-2014 01:21 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I wouldn't go that far, but I do find it odd that he seems less than interested in researching the facts that would support his opinion.
Not true. They are posted all up and down this thread.

What IS true is that Vandal does not accept any evidence that is given.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1698 at 07-01-2014 07:08 PM by Vandal-72 [at Idaho joined Jul 2012 #posts 1,101]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
This assumes that wave propagation requires media, as the water example certainly does. It's not necessary. E-H waves propagate in free space ... as far as we know.
You didn't actually mention dark matter, dark energy or de Broglie-Brohm. You didn't actually answer my question.







Post#1699 at 07-01-2014 07:11 PM by Vandal-72 [at Idaho joined Jul 2012 #posts 1,101]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I wouldn't go that far, but I do find it odd that he seems less than interested in researching the facts that would support his opinion.
Yeah, I got a little hyperbolic with that statement. Not sure that I agree with the "odd" assessment. His behavior is completely inline with all pseudoscience true believers.







Post#1700 at 07-03-2014 01:55 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Vandal-72 View Post
You didn't actually mention dark matter, dark energy or de Broglie-Brohm. You didn't actually answer my question.
Lighten-up. This isn't physics class. We're playing with concepts here, and that's dangerous if taken too seriously.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
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