Originally Posted by Taramarie

Keep in mind it is something you are interested in and what may seem like common sense to you may not be for someone else. Some do not even contemplate what he did as some delve into it more than others. I didnt really either which is why when you mention things like this it is foreign territory. So common sense is again, a very personal perspective. Universal maybe, but popularity rises and falls. I am not saying he is not important for all eras. If you remember i said we need all in all eras but as i have been saying it is not the huge focus for our current era. There are other things on peoples minds which has been brought forward as the largest concern.

I don't know if I agree, but that is where you are so I wish you well in your unfoldment; I'm going to listen to that long Watts lecture now; it is also being broadcast locally these days, so I can hear it again which I like to do to get it clear. Best wishes.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I don't know if I agree, but that is where you are so I wish you well in your unfoldment; I'm going to listen to that long Watts lecture now; it is also being broadcast locally these days, so I can hear it again which I like to do to get it clear. Best wishes.

well for that you would actually have to listen to others and see if they would think it is common sense. I do listen to others and find it is not the case for some. His message speaks to some more than others. We are all very different mindset wise, Eric. Just like for some it is not common sense to hear that jb is a "great musician." Again, speaks more to others and less to others. If you do not believe me, ask people.

I think Eric can relate to this. This is a post from someone I know. Someone who is near Eric's age.


"I saw The Big Short yesterday. I expect to see it again, in theater. It affected me deeply.
I can't find the previous thread that discussed it here, but I remember a couple of people saying that the protagonists, the guys who did the short, were not heroic. They certainly were not, for the most part, very likable individuals. But to me they were, in a very special way, heroic.
These were guys who had the intelligence and the guts to see that something was deeply wrong, even when everyone around them was claiming that it wasn't. They relied on their own brain and their own eyes. That caused them a lot of trouble in the short run. In the long run it made them (and in some cases, others as well) an enormous amount of money.
Now I don't particularly envy the money, because I never cared about being that rich. What I really do envy them is this: the market proved that they were right. They were in a field where being right actually pays off.
You see, I have had to come to terms with something over the years which remains quite a struggle. You all know that I did not spend most of my career at the kind of institution I wanted to be at, which I always defined as, one that I would have liked to attend myself. There were at least 30 such in the country, or so I thought. And as I wrote one big book after another, the conundrum of why it could be so hard to get what I wanted got more and more difficult. And then finally, and not until the last few years, I got it: I wasn't missing out in spite of what I had done, I was missing out because of what I had done. I was too intellectually ambitious, too open to new ideas (like S & H), and too confident in my own judgment, partly because I never wrote anything without looking into it very, very carefully. And I simply couldn't buy the academic credit default swaps which my contemporaries were marketing, because I could see they were junk. (Camille Paglia made the same analogy, in print, way back in the 1990s.)
Now it is true that the "heroes" of The Big Short have pretty unattractive personalities. I didn't particularly like them, but I do sympathize with them, for the simple reason that I know how hard it is to be one of the people who sees things that most (not all) other people can't or won't see. It could very easily make you crazy. I feel fortunate that I don't think it has made me crazy in that particular way. I don't think I have been the kind of obnoxious person they are, and I think you know it too. But that is a natural defense to develop if you happen to be right most of the time and all it does is make other people frightened and angry. Because it's very hard not to believe that that must somehow be your own fault.
Moving the power on the telescope back a little. . . .the movie is about Boomer-led Wall Street. The same movie could be shot about Boomer-led academia, but without the dramatic ending. It could probably be made about a lot of other professions as well. Being ON THE RIGHT SIDE is very important to Boomers; being RIGHT is not. See Clinton, Hillary. I am glad that I have been able to exchange ideas freely and rewardingly with people from different generations and different walks of life here. I'm very sorry that I couldn't do anything, really, to arrest the slide into chaos in my own profession, much less in the country at large. Of course many people here have disagreed with me about many things. But like my students at every institution that I ever taught at, or the people I've never met who have posted comments on one or another of my books, you guys have reassured me that no, I'm not the crazy one. And I appreciate it."

I don't think I have been the kind of obnoxious person they are, and I think you know it too. But that is a natural defense to develop if you happen to be right most of the time and all it does is make other people frightened and angry. Because it's very hard not to believe that that must somehow be your own fault.

Lol ... this sure sounds obnoxious. It also sounds a lot like an addict that I know, except he claims to be right *all* of the time rather than most.

ETA:
"You all know that I did not spend most of my career at the kind of institution I wanted to be at,"
Geez, I had only skimmed through before, but now I know who wrote this. Yes he certainly has a lot in common with Eric, including being a fan of ignore lists. Like Eric, he wasn't going to be invited to the "secret" fb group initially, but then people wanted to invite a friend of his and were afraid to hurt his feelings so he was allowed in.
You sure you can't get them to reconsider taking Eric?

Suj - I can't imagine anybody other than a retired history prof from the Naval War Academy writing that. But I refuse on principle to have anything to do with fb, so I have no way of knowing for sure.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Originally Posted by David Krein

Suj - I can't imagine anybody other than a retired history prof from the Naval War Academy writing that. But I refuse on principle to have anything to do with fb, so I have no way of knowing for sure.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Naval War Academy? I didn't know (or don't remember) that part, but it certainly fits.
Staying off fb is a smart idea. I recently discovered that you can't delete your profile. Even if you deactivate it, everything is preserved. Creepy!

Originally Posted by David Krein

Suj - I can't imagine anybody other than a retired history prof from the Naval War Academy writing that. But I refuse on principle to have anything to do with fb, so I have no way of knowing for sure.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

It does sound like him.

Xenakis, a very different person, wrote about seeing a movie called The Big Short.

...A few months ago I read something by Friedrich Hayek, an economist whose pondering I usually dislike (basically, no human suffering is in excess so long as the holy Moloch-like market free to do to any peon whatever its inhuman desires want) on the speculative booms that lead to the worst panics and subsequent recessions.

The speculative boom devours capital, ensuring that other activities get crowded out or subordinated. While people are speculating in real estate or securities they are not starting businesses or investing in job-creating plant and equipment. Gigantic profits are available in only one activity, and people focus on it instead of others.

People always find rationales: cheap money, low returns on investment in everything else, favorable tax treatment, easy profits, a growth curve that seems unlikely to ever stop, and a rationale that one has the wisdom to leave when the going is good. But 20:1 P/E ratios are shaky in any but recent startups, there is no infinity of customers for something priced out of affordability, accelerating growth is always shaky, favorable tax treatment is a poor pretext for making bad investments, and contrarian behavior always look foolish.

Hayek recognizes that despite the panic being the cause of the loss of prosperity, the speculative activity is! It's like being pulled into a con game: one does not realize that one is getting hurt until one finds that the 'gold' that one bought is in fact pyrite. It's when one buys the pyrites in the delusion that the pyrites are gold that one gets burned.

When the panic strikes, one discovers suddenly that the rest of the economy is a wreck. But the rest of the economy is a wreck while the speculative boom is churning paper profits.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

I wouldnt know regarding him being ahead of his time. The 2T is like another world to me. I do not really understand that foreign line of thinking. They saw a need for it in their time and likewise my cohort sees something else lacking now just it is something completely different and you could probably call it the total reverse of what was lacking in the 2T. Good you met him. I bet you guys had a lot to chat about.

If one is 60 or so, if not older, then one knows the 2T reasonably well from having been there. One could hardly avoid it unless one were in so isolating a sect as the Old Order Amish, whether one was in Greenwich Village, some village in the Ozarks, or a cattle ranch. But if you are significantly younger your knowledge of it will be at best second-hand, perhaps fitting the agenda of some ideologue or the wish-fulfillment of some creative person -- or worse, some unpleasant time in which young adults failed to pay attention to real children. Wherever youth were, so was cultural ferment.

Those who weren't dropping acid or sleeping with everything that moved were still asking the big questions -- perhaps more coherently, but they were asking the questions. We were examining the GI culture, and whether we were on the Right or the Left, we found it lacking.

By the late 1970s Generation X was becoming the teenagers, and they were not so likely to ask the deep questions and seek answers. They started to show an affinity for 'bubblegum' and eventually 'punk' rock which we Boomers found appalling. We liked folk-like music for its meaning or rhythm-and-blues for its intensity. Bubblegum was devoid of meaning, and if punk had intensity it was only in mindless dissonance. Generation X was not seeking meaning in life or intensity of feeling when it could simply have fun.

I have found one shibboleth that distinguishes Boomers from X. Boomers used the word party solely as a noun as did older generations (as in "Christmas party" or "Republican party) or adjective ("party store, Party line), and never as a verb. Generation X used the word party in those senses, but also as a verb, as in "Let's party!". Boomers would have said "Let's have a party!"

Originally Posted by Taramarie

well for that you would actually have to listen to others and see if they would think it is common sense. I do listen to others and find it is not the case for some. His message speaks to some more than others. We are all very different mindset wise, Eric. Just like for some it is not common sense to hear that jb is a "great musician." Again, speaks more to others and less to others. If you do not believe me, ask people.

No, you can't rely on others' opinions to hear someone's ideas. You have to rely on your own perceptions. No, people don't agree, and yes they have different mindsets. But, you have to be able to listen in order to find the value in something. And listening and reading with an open mind is not a skill that is often cultivated. People are usually content with what they already claim to know, especially when it's not the time of a 2T.

That guy reminds me a bit of David Kaiser.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

Lol ... this sure sounds obnoxious. It also sounds a lot like an addict that I know, except he claims to be right *all* of the time rather than most.

ETA:
"You all know that I did not spend most of my career at the kind of institution I wanted to be at,"
Geez, I had only skimmed through before, but now I know who wrote this. Yes he certainly has a lot in common with Eric, including being a fan of ignore lists. Like Eric, he wasn't going to be invited to the "secret" fb group initially, but then people wanted to invite a friend of his and were afraid to hurt his feelings so he was allowed in.
You sure you can't get them to reconsider taking Eric?

I tried, most of them said no. Some did but not enough. I wanted him in of course.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

No, you can't rely on others' opinions to hear someone's ideas. You have to rely on your own perceptions. No, people don't agree, and yes they have different mindsets. But, you have to be able to listen in order to find the value in something. And listening and reading with an open mind is not a skill that is often cultivated. People are usually content with what they already claim to know, especially when it's not the time of a 2T.

That guy reminds me a bit of David Kaiser.

All I have been saying is a 4th turning is generally not a time that is really thinking about that sort of thing, given xers and us millies, the majority do not really think about it. You have to be able to see other things are needed. I listen to others because i find what is lacking is boomers who actually listen to each other. Many cannot see beyond their own opinion and i am not the only kiwi millie who is like this. Us kiwi millies have been taught to listen to the group and consider all perspectives then come up with a solution, unless there are actual facts depending on the situation. Yes, it is David.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

If one is 60 or so, if not older, then one knows the 2T reasonably well from having been there. One could hardly avoid it unless one were in so isolating a sect as the Old Order Amish, whether one was in Greenwich Village, some village in the Ozarks, or a cattle ranch. But if you are significantly younger your knowledge of it will be at best second-hand, perhaps fitting the agenda of some ideologue or the wish-fulfillment of some creative person -- or worse, some unpleasant time in which young adults failed to pay attention to real children. Wherever youth were, so was cultural ferment.

Those who weren't dropping acid or sleeping with everything that moved were still asking the big questions -- perhaps more coherently, but they were asking the questions. We were examining the GI culture, and whether we were on the Right or the Left, we found it lacking.

By the late 1970s Generation X was becoming the teenagers, and they were not so likely to ask the deep questions and seek answers. They started to show an affinity for 'bubblegum' and eventually 'punk' rock which we Boomers found appalling. We liked folk-like music for its meaning or rhythm-and-blues for its intensity. Bubblegum was devoid of meaning, and if punk had intensity it was only in mindless dissonance. Generation X was not seeking meaning in life or intensity of feeling when it could simply have fun.

I have found one shibboleth that distinguishes Boomers from X. Boomers used the word party solely as a noun as did older generations (as in "Christmas party" or "Republican party) or adjective ("party store, Party line), and never as a verb. Generation X used the word party in those senses, but also as a verb, as in "Let's party!". Boomers would have said "Let's have a party!"

Trust me, as a millie who hears about the 2T mindset and or agendas that popped up round that time that survive today that is all I hear from some kiwi boomers. It happens here too and it has turned me off being like that because all it really is is someone who has become so wrapped up in him or herself they cannot see beyond themselves. They cannot see others and if you cannot do that you cannot fix what really needs fixing in this self absorbed world. It is with the help of others we can change the world as they are a part of society. I tried to tell that to some highly ideological boomers like Eric. They did not listen. I tried to gently shake them into reality by telling them it will not work if you do not have consensus of the people it will affect, that you have to be able to listen to them and collaborate. They did not like the sacrifice of their dreams which are tbh unrealistic. I do not understand these people one bit and so I think I will never be like that. We have too much of it now which needs younger people who are nothing like the boomers. Btw I love bubblegum lol. Well some bubblegum is devoid of meaning but it is fun and some do if you listen to the words. I woke up to music when I heard that stuff start up in 1995/6 when I was a preteen. Not sure of punk rock. I could not name one punk rock group tbh. I could name a few heavy metal gen x groups though and they talk about some very important issues society deals with today and the outrage of it. Interesting to hear about the differences between x and boom and how they percieved the others culture especially as i am neither.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

All I have been saying is a 4th turning is generally not a time that is really thinking about that sort of thing, given xers and us millies, the majority do not really think about it. You have to be able to see other things are needed. I listen to others because i find what is lacking is boomers who actually listen to each other. Many cannot see beyond their own opinion and i am not the only kiwi millie who is like this. Us kiwi millies have been taught to listen to the group and consider all perspectives then come up with a solution, unless there are actual facts depending on the situation.

The same applies to millies today. To "think about" those things that boomers think about too, would be open minded; to not think about them is closed-minded. We boomers are certainly tuned into the political and economic issues a great deal now too, and many of us know what's needed and say it's time for action. So your generation might be less open in that respect, since boomers are concerned with both.

Like I said, wisdom is needed more than ever in a time when we might tend to ignore it. Wisdom needs to guide our actions, always. Yes, boomers are often more stubborn and ideological. I claim not to be ideological, but I say the truth as best I know it. Older people like me generally are more set in their opinions, because they have settled on what they have learned and what works for them. We've been there and done that on a lot of things. That is a disadvantage to be sure, when older people get locked into ideologies. I think we need to free ourselves from ideologies, and just look at the truth. In most cases, it is pretty obvious, but people ignore it anyway.

Your generation will be very important for taking action on the political and economic challenges of our time, no doubt about that. And you can do it. We boomers can be leaders too, if we step up to the challenge. Our generations can do everything that needs to be done now.

I don't know if we will, but "the stars" look favorable for the 2020s. People are always looking for info on what might happen. The esoteric approach is more useful for that than the endless speculations of "rational" pundits, which have not stopped during this 4T I can assure you! The "rational" pundits can only see what's in front of their faces and in the polls right now.

Yes, it is David.

Thanks. He is not a lot like me though. But I suppose, more like me than the civics are.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

I tried, most of them said no. Some did but not enough. I wanted him in of course.

Nihilist was just kidding.

I was more interested in another open forum, not a secret facebook site, when I asked you. Nihilist gave me some possibilities so I am looking into them. I had never been able to find any before, even using google. We'll see if these other sites are any good. One of them is so encumbered with rules that it attracts only a few very timid souls. Another has so many topics it's hard to find one to chew on. But I'm still looking. This forum is very wide ranging, and that's the good thing about it. Most sites are about hobbies.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

The same applies to millies today. To "think about" those things that boomers think about too, would be open minded; to not think about them is closed-minded. We boomers are certainly tuned into the political and economic issues a great deal now too, and many of us know what's needed and say it's time for action. So your generation might be less open in that respect, since boomers are concerned with both.

Like I said, wisdom is needed more than ever in a time when we might tend to ignore it. Wisdom needs to guide our actions, always. Yes, boomers are often more stubborn and ideological. I claim not to be ideological, but I say the truth as best I know it. Older people like me generally are more set in their opinions, because they have settled on what they have learned and what works for them. We've been there and done that on a lot of things. That is a disadvantage to be sure, when older people get locked into ideologies. I think we need to free ourselves from ideologies, and just look at the truth. In most cases, it is pretty obvious, but people ignore it anyway.

Your generation will be very important for taking action on the political and economic challenges of our time, no doubt about that. And you can do it. We boomers can be leaders too, if we step up to the challenge. Our generations can do everything that needs to be done now.

I don't know if we will, but "the stars" look favorable for the 2020s. People are always looking for info on what might happen. The esoteric approach is more useful for that than the endless speculations of "rational" pundits, which have not stopped during this 4T I can assure you! The "rational" pundits can only see what's in front of their faces and in the polls right now.



Thanks. He is not a lot like me though. But I suppose, more like me than the civics are.

Well, I think it is more like we just do not think about those things, Eric. You were around at a time where it was talked about. Nowadays, science is talked about more and pages on fb like I fucking love science have a huge following from millennials. I read a article on that somewhere and follow it myself. Oh yeah, you are not kidding. Many are waay worse than you. It boggles the mind how you cannot get through to them. Ideals are great, but they must have the consensus of the people it will affect and it must be realistic for it to be workable and sustainable. Try tell that to the highly ideological who are so self absorbed and ideological they cannot beyond their own nose. That is why i personally shy away from it and also see it as possibly damaging to be like that. Yes we need to let go of some ideologies but i do not see boomers doing that. That will come from younger folk more than likely. Some less ideological boomers too. Yes we can take on the political and economic challenges of our time. It is why I am now involved with shaping up our occupy nz movement. Well i dont know about the stars but i do think that would be the right time for the real changes to take place. Well I did not say he is like you just some part of his message reminded me of some of your traits and made me think i wonder if he feels like this sometimes, being frustrated that some people do not think this and that is common sense.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Nihilist was just kidding.

I was more interested in another open forum, not a secret facebook site, when I asked you. Nihilist gave me some possibilities so I am looking into them. I had never been able to find any before, even using google. We'll see if these other sites are any good. One of them is so encumbered with rules that it attracts only a few very timid souls. Another has so many topics it's hard to find one to chew on. But I'm still looking. This forum is very wide ranging, and that's the good thing about it. Most sites are about hobbies.

Well i wasnt i genuinely wanted you in as soon as i was invited. I would like another open forum. Maybe you can create one to your own liking?

Punk rock was created by Boomers not Xers.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

Well I did not say he is like you just some part of his message reminded me of some of your traits and made me think i wonder if he feels like this sometimes, being frustrated that some people do not think this and that is common sense.

That's what happens when you use ignore lists and otherwise shut out people/ideas that you don't agree with. I'm sure it's frustrating and also isolating.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

Punk rock was created by Boomers not Xers.

Just like Rap, Heavy Metal, and all the other things a certain subclass of Boomers like to piss and moan about.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

That's what happens when you use ignore lists and otherwise shut out people/ideas that you don't agree with. I'm sure it's frustrating and also isolating.

That is why I dont use it. I did not even notice the report post icon in the left hand corner till recently when people were mentioning it was being used. I know, not observant but I focus more on what is being said than noticing the little things I do not use.

Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed

Just like Rap, Heavy Metal, and all the other things a certain subclass of Boomers like to piss and moan about.

Not the first time we Boomers didn't live up to the expectations we had of ourselves. Or that older Boomers had of younger ones, etc. We Boomers were good at appreciating the great musical creations of the war babies. When it came time to make our own music, we didn't do quite as well as those geniuses did.

I use the ignore list now (I didn't have one for most of my time here), but never to shut out ideas I don't agree with. With some people though, this applies: https://youtu.be/452XjnaHr1A

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Not the first time we Boomers didn't live up to the expectations we had of ourselves. Or that older Boomers had of younger ones, etc. We Boomers were good at appreciating the great musical creations of the war babies. When it came time to make our own music, we didn't do quite as well as those geniuses did.

I use the ignore list now (I didn't have one for most of my time here), but never to shut out ideas I don't agree with. With some people though, this applies: https://youtu.be/452XjnaHr1A

I think a lot of boomer music is wonderful. My boomer mother raised me on it and I also listened to xer music which my mother was intrigued by. It is one of the things that my mother and i connect with. Music that we think is great. I think we are reverse on this. You do not like certain music that i love. Music is personal though. It is like loved ones. Some can see the beauty in it while others cannot.

Not the first time we Boomers didn't live up to the expectations we had of ourselves. Or that older Boomers had of younger ones, etc. We Boomers were good at appreciating the great musical creations of the war babies. When it came time to make our own music, we didn't do quite as well as those geniuses did.

It's kind of the nature of the thing for generations to grow up listening to the late products of the generation that preceded them, even as the members of that preceding generation grow out of the target audience. The rising generation then elaborates on whatever they grew up with, and the cycle continues.

My present hope is that since I dislike most of the present schlock we inherited from Xers (although unlike you I don't mind and sometimes enjoy what the Xers produced for themselves; been on a bit of a 90s kick recently), I might find what ever the 90s cohorts are cooking up more palatable.

Probably not, though. Oh well, that's what Youtube is for.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I use the ignore list now (I didn't have one for most of my time here), but never to shut out ideas I don't agree with. With some people though, this applies: https://youtu.be/452XjnaHr1A

Cutting off communication when it isn't going anywhere is one thing. Pitching a fit when someone quotes a person on your ignore list (like you did on the other thread) is another. Kaiser used to have similar fits, but with fewer exclamation marks.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

Cutting off communication when it isn't going anywhere is one thing. Pitching a fit when someone quotes a person on your ignore list (like you did on the other thread) is another.

And I see nothing wrong with that (whatever you call it). Anyone's posts here are fair game for comment, even if direct communication with someone (e.g. kinser) is impossible.

Kaiser used to have similar fits, but with fewer exclamation marks.

Unlike you, I think the content of his posts and his views were more interesting than his behavior, and the same goes for me, and everyone else. It would be nice if your posts had more content.