Originally Posted by nihilist moron

I guess he thinks that "real topics" are insulting me and throwing a pie in your face.

Perhaps. I gave up trying to figure Eric out long ago. It made my head hurt.

if punk had intensity it was only in mindless dissonance--pbrower

Originally Posted by Taramarie

Not sure of punk rock. I could not name one punk rock group tbh. I could name a few heavy metal gen x groups though and they talk about some very important issues society deals with today and the outrage of it. Interesting to hear about the differences between x and boom and how they percieved the others culture especially as i am neither.

A little late returning to the conversation with this, but nevertheless...

Punk rock was certainly discordant and often ugly, but it was not mindless--not exactly. Punk was about working class issues, it was anti-authority, anti-commercialism, delivered with a crass belligerence that couldn't be ignored. Especially in the UK (where the true heart and soul of punk in its early days resided), it was often political and expressed frustration with the class system. Working class issues, also feminism, anti-racism and even environmental issues.

The political, anti-establishment nature of punk rock and its 80s off-shoot trends had more relevance in Europe than in the US, I think. Mix-tapes and punk styles leaked into the Communist bloc countries, contributing to a powerful and subversive youth culture. In East Germany, underground punk rock bands emerged, tailoring the messages of their music to their own social/political situation, while being hunted by the Stasi. If, as Aquarian Boomers claim, counter-culture rock'n'roll ended the Vietnam War, punk rock brought down the Berlin Wall.

Originally Posted by mockingbirdstl

A little late returning to the conversation with this, but nevertheless...

Punk rock was certainly discordant and often ugly, but it was not mindless--not exactly. Punk was about working class issues, it was anti-authority, anti-commercialism, delivered with a crass belligerence that couldn't be ignored. Especially in the UK (where the true heart and soul of punk in its early days resided), it was often political and expressed frustration with the class system. Working class issues, also feminism, anti-racism and even environmental issues.

The political, anti-establishment nature of punk rock and its 80s off-shoot trends had more relevance in Europe than in the US, I think. Mix-tapes and punk styles leaked into the Communist bloc countries, contributing to a powerful and subversive youth culture. In East Germany, underground punk rock bands emerged, tailoring the messages of their music to their own social/political situation, while being hunted by the Stasi. If, as Aquarian Boomers claim, counter-culture rock'n'roll ended the Vietnam War, punk rock brought down the Berlin Wall.

I was not the one who said it is mindless. However learning about it from you it sounds like what heavy metal gives to us.

Originally Posted by mockingbirdstl

A little late returning to the conversation with this, but nevertheless...

Punk rock was certainly discordant and often ugly, but it was not mindless--not exactly. Punk was about working class issues, it was anti-authority, anti-commercialism, delivered with a crass belligerence that couldn't be ignored. Especially in the UK (where the true heart and soul of punk in its early days resided), it was often political and expressed frustration with the class system. Working class issues, also feminism, anti-racism and even environmental issues.

The political, anti-establishment nature of punk rock and its 80s off-shoot trends had more relevance in Europe than in the US, I think. Mix-tapes and punk styles leaked into the Communist bloc countries, contributing to a powerful and subversive youth culture. In East Germany, underground punk rock bands emerged, tailoring the messages of their music to their own social/political situation, while being hunted by the Stasi. If, as Aquarian Boomers claim, counter-culture rock'n'roll ended the Vietnam War, punk rock brought down the Berlin Wall.

Oh i see it was pbrower who said it was mindless. Well as i could not name one punk group off the top of my head i don't know. But I question when someone says anything artistic is mindless. He is most likely going by his reaction to it or the sound of it. My mother is the same with my heavy metal and cannot hear the intelligence/message.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

Oh i see it was pbrower who said it was mindless. Well as i could not name one punk group off the top of my head i don't know. But I question when someone says anything artistic is mindless. He is most likely going by his reaction to it or the sound of it. My mother is the same with my heavy metal and cannot hear the intelligence/message.

And that's the thing: the sound of it. The message isn't it. If you want a message, read a book.

Originally Posted by nihilist moron

I guess he thinks that "real topics" are insulting me and throwing a pie in your face.

Leading the way back into real issues, I see (not)...........

This started with intergenerational bashing and turned into English 101. I'm not leading anything, just following along ... though I think Eric meant that as a personal attack.

Starting with? lol

Tim Walker '56
Junior Member
Join Date
Jun 2001

Default Outlook Before Millenial Saeculum
In Peace In Our Time Mathew Melko commented that a certain outlook, a generalized way of thinking, will dominate an era of Western history. Like Newtonian physics, the older outlook was cut and dried, somewhat mechanical. The older outlook gave rise to the age of Enlightenment and persisted to WWII. "This earlier outlook developed in the time of Newton and reached its culmination in Darwin. ..This outlook is concerned with the reality of things, with a set of absolutes or basics from which development took place. The development was important, even more important than the things: man had the capacity to utilize his knowledge and make things better...that progress is essentially additive." Reality is sequential, rather like a series of novels forming a sequence.

I don't remember the opening post that I made that "started" it all, since it goes back before 2001.............

Not, you're not leading. Can you? Discuss a real issue.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

And that's the thing: the sound of it. The message isn't it. If you want a message, read a book.

If YOU want a message, listen to your own favourite music or read a book. Let the rest of us get the message that speaks to us and the sound we like through how we want it. I wont tell you do not listen to what you want to listen to. I do not get your bieber music, and you do not get heavy metal and neither of us has to, but allow the other to care about what they care about. I know you do not like this type of conversation as it gets us nowhere but it seems i have to repeat it. I feel you do not like that certain types of music exist. Well, don't listen to it. Plain and simple.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

If YOU want a message, listen to your own favourite music or read a book. Let the rest of us get the message that speaks to us and the sound we like through how we want it. I wont tell you do not listen to what you want to listen to. I do not get your bieber music, and you do not get heavy metal and neither of us has to, but allow the other to care about what they care about. I know you do not like this type of conversation as it gets us nowhere but it seems i have to repeat it. I feel you do not like that certain types of music exist. Well, don't listen to it. Plain and simple.

I don't listen to it Because it's not listenable.

(please, you can tolerate a bit of exaggeration, tara........)

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

And that's the thing: the sound of it. The message isn't it. If you want a message, read a book.

Btw i do not just like heavy metal. I was on the bus today and the driver was playing opera. Different types i have never heard before and it was beautiful. Soothing. I have a wide appreciation for music. Don't like that people turn down jb? Don't go after other peoples preferences.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I don't listen to it Because it's not listenable.

(please, you can tolerate a bit of exaggeration, tara........)

and that is ok that you don't listen to it. You don't have to. But why go after it all the time especially when you do not like it when people pick on biebs?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I don't listen to it Because it's not listenable.

But see, ugliness was part of the point. (At least for punk rock.) As I said before, they were creating a music, and a fashion style, that was impossible to ignore. Something that would shake the establishment out of their complacency.

Having said that, I actually enjoy listening to punk rock. It can be very thrilling, even if my experience of it was only in the late, Americanized form of grunge.

Originally Posted by mockingbirdstl

But see, ugliness was part of the point. (At least for punk rock.) As I said before, they were creating a music, and a fashion style, that was impossible to ignore. Something that would shake the establishment out of their complacency.

Having said that, I actually enjoy listening to punk rock. It can be very thrilling, even if my experience of it was only in the late, Americanized form of grunge.

Exactly ad the way i see it, it is a feeling of what the message is that they are trying to get across and their frustration of how the world is currently.

Originally Posted by mockingbirdstl

But see, ugliness was part of the point. (At least for punk rock.) As I said before, they were creating a music, and a fashion style, that was impossible to ignore. Something that would shake the establishment out of their complacency.

I don't mind the fashion statement; I liked it.

But I don't agree with ugliness as a "point." But then, I am idealistic. Music is important to me for itself, not just for it's verbal message. The sounds and melodies etc. of good music communicates something that words cannot. Ugliness I don't see as a worthwhile message, whether in visual art or music. It is counter-productive at any time. Shaking people up with ugly sounds is not what was needed. I know punk is a kind of nihilist modern art, with much the same "philosophy." I can't convince anyone to agree just by saying my opinion, but I don't think I can just let contrary opinions stand without mentioning mine. People don't like my opinion? So what?

Having said that, I actually enjoy listening to punk rock. It can be very thrilling, even if my experience of it was only in the late, Americanized form of grunge.

You like it. I hear that. I don't see how generations can be that different; we are all human beings. I don't like either core punk or grunge, but post punk or pop punk, whatever you call it, I sometimes like. I know we agree sometimes, so that's fine. There may be some common ground.

Some Xers like hearing nihilist music because it expresses their frustrations. To that I say, why be frustrated? There's plenty of opportunity today to make your life better and the world a better place. I say instead: express something positive. Create something of lasting value. Join a positive movement. Liberate yourself. Help liberate the world.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

and that is ok that you don't listen to it. You don't have to. But why go after it all the time especially when you do not like it when people pick on biebs?

Because I want to defend him, so I will. I will mention what I like and what I don't. Everyone is free to do that.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Because I want to defend him, so I will. I will mention what I like and what I don't. Everyone is free to do that.

and good for you that you want to defend him. But you do not get to insult people's preferences then get defensive over the biebs. Why can you not let people like what they want to like? We all know you do not like it. You do not get that music. Like we do not get biebs. You have to accept people are different and we are not all you. But you do not seem to understand that either. Many here I have seen have tried and failed to get you to understand that. There is no point to expressing your opinion on music because it is all very personal. I think some boomers who have told me what i will tell you were right. We will be better off when the boomers are gone. I did not agree but some qualities like the damn culture wars, the squabbling over whose music is the best music or the "right music" and all the idiotic things many of them like to ramble on about, what to eat what to drink. They can be a serious pain in the arse. Just accept people are different and we will be better for it. But that is asking too much of an idealist.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

and good for you that you want to defend him. But you do not get to insult people's preferences then get defensive over the biebs. Why can you not let people like what they want to like? We all know you do not like it. You do not get that music. Like we do not get biebs. You have to accept people are different and we are not all you. But you do not seem to understand that either. Many here I have seen have tried and failed to get you to understand that. There is no point to expressing your opinion on music because it is all very personal. I think some boomers who have told me what i will tell you were right. We will be better off when the boomers are gone. I did not agree but some qualities like the damn culture wars, the squabbling over whose music is the best music or the "right music" and all the idiotic things many of them like to ramble on about, what to eat what to drink. They can be a serious pain in the arse. Just accept people are different and we will be better for it. But that is asking too much of an idealist.

No, things will not be better when boomers are gone. Idealistic leaders are needed now. Boomers are supplying them. If you don't see that, you aren't paying attention. Here's another one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pollan

I don't have control over what people like and don't like. I will say what I like and what I don't. I don't care if you think there's no point to doing so. You do it too. So what?

I notice you didn't agree with Kinser's view on art, because he was uninformed. I am very informed on music, and know more than most people about it, just as you know more about art than many people.

I guess I could open a thread about all the great boomers who are the kind of idealistic leaders we need, but just to answer taramarie? I have other things to do right now. Maybe later.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

No, things will not be better when boomers are gone. Idealistic leaders are needed now. Boomers are supplying them. If you don't see that, you aren't paying attention. Here's another one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pollan

I don't have control over what people like and don't like. I will say what I like and what I don't. So what?

I think some, including myself at times could take the advice of the silent who are needed now...if you do not have anything nice to say, do not say anything. So, you can say you do not mind when people rip into biebs? Do you really want such an unpleasant environment where people tear into others taste in music? Is it productive? Is it necessary to behave like that towards something so personal? It seems to me you idealists are poking topics that just do not need to be poked.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

No, things will not be better when boomers are gone. Idealistic leaders are needed now. Boomers are supplying them. If you don't see that, you aren't paying attention. Here's another one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pollan

I don't have control over what people like and don't like. I will say what I like and what I don't. I don't care if you think there's no point to doing so. You do it too. So what?

I notice you didn't agree with Kinser's view on art, because he was uninformed. I am very informed on music, and know more than most people about it, just as you know more about art than many people.

No i dont actually. I dont like certain music but i do not talk about it the way you do nor do i even talk about it much unless i am trying to get through to you this is a personal topic and as it is personal it should be RESPECTED. No i do not agree with his view but i dont go into other threads as i have seen you do and bash 3T music and xer culture. I am educated in art and have had time to reflect on the subject of art but it still stands that art is what we make of it...same as music. It is all personal. Art/music reflects the people who create it. If you cannot respect that you cannot respect those who appreciate or make it.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

No, things will not be better when boomers are gone. Idealistic leaders are needed now. Boomers are supplying them. If you don't see that, you aren't paying attention. Here's another one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pollan

I don't have control over what people like and don't like. I will say what I like and what I don't. I don't care if you think there's no point to doing so. You do it too. So what?

I notice you didn't agree with Kinser's view on art, because he was uninformed. I am very informed on music, and know more than most people about it, just as you know more about art than many people.

I think many will disagree with you. The people who said it were funny enough several boomers. I do not agree however i am starting to see their point.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

I think some, including myself at times could take the advice of the silent who are needed now...if you do not have anything nice to say, do not say anything. So, you can say you do not mind when people rip into biebs? Do you really want such an unpleasant environment where people tear into others taste in music? Is it productive? Is it necessary to behave like that towards something so personal? It seems to me you idealists are poking topics that just do not need to be poked.

Music and art are both objective and subjective. It's objective because we see and hear the same thing. It's subjective because we bring our own needs and background and personality to our experience of it.

There is a whole forum on "culture," of which this thread is a part. Get over it. People have opinions on art and music and will express them. That is not disrespectful. That's what the forum is for. That's what art and music critics do. I can't help what my honest opinion of much of 3T music and culture is, nor of my opinion of some 4T pop that seems better to me.

But it doesn't necessarily belong in this thread, unless we are discussing a philosophy of aesthetics. My first paragraph is an example of that. Feel free to verge in that direction, or address the other subjects in this thread if you wish.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

I think many will disagree with you. The people who said it were funny enough several boomers. I do not agree however i am starting to see their point.

Why are you starting to see their point? Just because I express my opinion about punk rock? So what if I express my opinion about punk rock?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Music and art are both objective and subjective. It's objective because we see and hear the same thing. It's subjective because we bring our own needs and background and personality to our experience of it.

There is a whole forum on "culture," of which this thread is a part. Get over it. People have opinions on art and music and will express them. That is not disrespectful. That's what the forum is for. That's what art and music critics do. I can't help what my honest opinion of much of 3T music and culture is, nor of my opinion of some 4T pop that seems better to me.

But it doesn't necessarily belong in this thread, unless we are discussing a philosophy of aesthetics. My first paragraph is an example of that. Feel free to verge in that direction, or address the other subjects in this thread if you wish.

First paragraph, yes that is correct. Yes, to have an opinion, ok, but as i said, the next silent is needed because at least they will be (hopefully) sensitive enough to be respectful about how they analyze the work.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Why are you starting to see their point? Just because I express my opinion about punk rock? So what if I express my opinion about punk rock?

ugh Eric, people have been telling you the same damned thing for a while now. Why should i repeat myself? It goes through one ear and out the other.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

and that is ok that you don't listen to it. You don't have to. But why go after it all the time especially when you do not like it when people pick on biebs?

And just respond to what people post, not to what they did in the past or "all the time."

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

But I don't agree with ugliness as a "point." But then, I am idealistic. Music is important to me for itself, not just for it's verbal message.

IOW, Eric is idealistic and he has a set of stuff he thinks is "ugly". Sorry, but one man's trash is another's treasure.

The sounds and melodies etc. of good music communicates something that words cannot. Ugliness I don't see as a worthwhile message, whether in visual art or music. It is counter-productive at any time. Shaking people up with ugly sounds is not what was needed.

Uh, no. If we're discussing say punk, that music originated in deindustrialized England. The music isn't ugly, but the policies that lead to deindustrialsation are what ARE UGLY. Said policies like outsourcing are still ugly and deserve anything to express disgust and anger toward it.

I know punk is a kind of nihilist modern art, with much the same "philosophy."

... Rage against the machine, so to speak.

I can't convince anyone to agree just by saying my opinion, but I don't think I can just let contrary opinions stand without mentioning mine. People don't like my opinion? So what?

Let's see. I've noticed you diss Xer stuff and don't expect to get dissed back. The real world doesn't work that way.

You like it. I hear that. I don't see how generations can be that different; we are all human beings. I don't like either core punk or grunge, but post punk or pop punk, whatever you call it, I sometimes like. I know we agree sometimes, so that's fine. There may be some common ground.

You don't have to like it and I don't have to like <<you know who>>.

Some Xers like hearing nihilist music because it expresses their frustrations. To that I say, why be frustrated? There's plenty of opportunity today to make your life better and the world a better place. I say instead: express something positive. Create something of lasting value. Join a positive movement. Liberate yourself. Help liberate the world.

It sort of depends. If you're an Xer who has to hold down two jobs just to keep the lights on, there's no time for other agendas. Of course Xer's can liberate themselves by not drinking the Kool-ade of con$umerism and buying overpriced crap from China like Ishits. Gardening also works for me since I managed to make $500 in snus last year. That comes to about $200 in tobaccy taxes not paid.