Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

IOW, Eric is idealistic and he has a set of stuff he thinks is "ugly". Sorry, but one man's trash is another's treasure.

And I will point out where I see the treasure lies. Close your eyes and see a better day! Suzanne will show you where to look amid the garbage and the flowers.

Uh, no. If we're discussing say punk, that music originated in deindustrialized England. The music isn't ugly, but the policies that lead to deindustrialsation are what ARE UGLY. Said policies like outsourcing are still ugly and deserve anything to express disgust and anger toward it.

Yes, so do it with great art, like was done during the early 2T. Do it like Bob Dylan. A Hard Rain's A Gonna Fall! The early core punk musicians had no clue about that. The conditions were ugly, and the music was ugly. I say, create something beautiful. Light the darkness.

... Rage against the machine, so to speak.

But not with the quality of Dylan Thomas.

Let's see. I've noticed you diss Xer stuff and don't expect to get dissed back. The real world doesn't work that way.

Are you sure I don't expect to get dissed back? I defend what I like and express disapproval for what I don't. I don't like 3T heavy metal. So, diss me back. Go ahead, make my day.

I mean, I know that people can express their true opinions about anything they like. If they are honest and sensitive to what is actually going on, and so am I, then we might actually agree. It's very rare, but certainly possible, for people to be aware of the truth to that extent, and come to an understanding.

You don't have to like it and I don't have to like <<you know who>>.

That's correct, we don't.

It sort of depends. If you're an Xer who has to hold down two jobs just to keep the lights on, there's no time for other agendas. Of course Xer's can liberate themselves by not drinking the Kool-ade of con$umerism and buying overpriced crap from China like Ishits. Gardening also works for me since I managed to make $500 in snus last year. That comes to about $200 in tobaccy taxes not paid.

See, there's lots of ways to liberate yourself than just making ugly music.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

ugh Eric, people have been telling you the same damned thing for a while now. Why should i repeat myself? It goes through one ear and out the other.

A slim reason to say an entire generation should go away, just because I say something you disagree with.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

And I will point out where I see the treasure lies. Close your eyes and see a better day! Suzanne will show you where to look amid the garbage and the flowers.


Yes, so do it with great art, like was done during the early 2T. Do it like Bob Dylan. A Hard Rain's A Gonna Fall! The early core punk musicians had no clue about that. The conditions were ugly, and the music was ugly. I say, create something beautiful. Light the darkness.


But not with the quality of Dylan Thomas.


Are you sure I don't expect to get dissed back? I defend what I like and express disapproval for what I don't. I don't like 3T heavy metal. So, diss me back. Go ahead, make my day.


That's correct, we don't.



See, there's lots of ways to liberate yourself than just making ugly music.

I am no xer and cannot speak for them but as a fellow artist I can say they will create it how they see fit and do not need a boomer to tell them how to express themselves to HIS liking. There are other people on this planet, Eric.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

I am no xer and cannot speak for them but as a fellow artist I can say they will create it how they see fit and do not need a boomer to tell them how to express themselves to HIS liking. There are other people on this planet, Eric.

Really?

They need something. Perhaps it will come. I can pray

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

A slim reason to say an entire generation should go away, just because I say something you disagree with.

I did not say it Eric, other boomers did. I am just starting to see the reasons they gave and no it is not because I disagree with it. They gave the points and I see some particular boomer traits in you that fit their reasons. I was actually defending the boomers from the boomers who were saying that. If you do not believe me on that, well you have not been paying attention to what i post.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

I did not say it Eric, other boomers did. I am just starting to see the reasons they gave and no it is not because I disagree with it. They gave the points and I see some particular boomer traits in you that fit their reasons. I was actually defending the boomers from the boomers who were saying that. If you do not believe me on that, well you have not been paying attention to what i post.

Ok, well see that you keep to your opinion

Don't let ME dissuade you!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Really?

They need something. Perhaps it will come. I can pray

It will come when they see fit. We cannot go and tell them to create something that appeals to us individually just because we do not like it. What matters is they are speaking from the heart and showing a piece of themselves to the world and sending out their voice, not yours.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Ok, well see that you keep to your opinion

Don't let ME dissuade you!

My mother is a boomer. If boomers were all gone, so would she and I do not want that. I like some common qualities of the boomers but others drive me up the wall. I think all generations can say negative and positive things about others too.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

It will come when they see fit. We cannot go and tell them to create something that appeals to us individually just because we do not like it. What matters is they are speaking from the heart and showing a piece of themselves to the world and sending out their voice, not yours.

You didn't follow the discussion, Tara. You just reacted to my statement out of context. Mockingbird admitted that punk was ugly music (although he enjoys it), but said they created it out of frustration with the deindustrialization of England. So I said it could be expressed through beauty as well as the ugly. I think that's a good response to his statement. I am not telling anyone what to create. I am reminding him that circumstances do not dictate our expressions.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You didn't follow the discussion, Tara. You just reacted to my statement out of context. Mockingbird admitted that punk was ugly music (although he enjoys it), but said they created it out of frustration with the deindustrialization of England. So I said it could be expressed through beauty as well as the ugly. I think that's a good response to his statement. I am not telling anyone what to create. I am reminding him that circumstances do not dictate our expressions.

I will repeat they will create it how they see fit. It is not out of context. It very much sounds like a person who does not appreciate how they want to create music and wants them to make it more to his liking. The music is ugly for a reason and it is no ones business how someone creates music. For ears that want to listen, they will listen.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You didn't follow the discussion, Tara. You just reacted to my statement out of context. Mockingbird admitted that punk was ugly music (although he enjoys it), but said they created it out of frustration with the deindustrialization of England. So I said it could be expressed through beauty as well as the ugly. I think that's a good response to his statement. I am not telling anyone what to create. I am reminding him that circumstances do not dictate our expressions.

You are not telling but you are damned sure suggesting people be something they are not. As art is a piece of who we are as individuals it is rather rude to suggest they create something more to your liking.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You didn't follow the discussion, Tara. You just reacted to my statement out of context. Mockingbird admitted that punk was ugly music (although he enjoys it), but said they created it out of frustration with the deindustrialization of England. So I said it could be expressed through beauty as well as the ugly. I think that's a good response to his statement. I am not telling anyone what to create. I am reminding him that circumstances do not dictate our expressions.

I think the world would be pretty damned boring if music was not diverse.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

I think the world would be pretty damned boring if music was not diverse.

Right, but that is not a response to my statement. Music is diverse all the time.

You are not telling but you are damned sure suggesting people be something they are not. As art is a piece of who we are as individuals it is rather rude to suggest they create something more to your liking.

If stating my honest observation is "rude" then so be it.

I am suggesting that people are more than they think they are. If someone says that music has to be ugly because of their circumstances, I disagree.

Some music and some visual art is better than others. Yes, I like quality better than ugly trash. So be it.

You're still not following the discussion. You are just inserting your opinion of what I ought to say. Might that be "rude" too?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Right, but that is not a response to my statement. Music is diverse all the time.

Look above for my response. Unbelievably rude to suggest people change their music to something that they are not all about. That is like someone coming up to me and saying, i don't like your movies because they are too ...... i think you should make them more beautiful. Get the hell out of here I would say. I am who i am and so are the artists you do not agree with. You can analyze their work but you cannot go round suggesting they change their style. Bloody rude.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Right, but that is not a response to my statement. Music is diverse all the time.


If stating my honest observation is "rude" then so be it.

I am suggesting that people are more than they think they are. If someone says that music has to be ugly because of their circumstances, I disagree.

Some music and some visual art is better than others. Yes, I like quality better than ugly trash. So be it.

You're still not following the discussion. You are just inserting your opinion of what I ought to say. Might that be "rude" too?

at your age you should have learned some manners. I hope the next generation has some sensitivity.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

Look above for my response. Unbelievably rude to suggest people change their music to something that they are not all about. That is like someone coming up to me and saying, i don't like your movies because they are too ...... i think you should make them more beautiful. Get the hell out of here I would say. I am who i am and so are the artists you do not agree with. You can analyze their work but you cannot go round suggesting they change their style. Bloody rude.

I can point out that I don't buy their excuses.

Everyone can and does express their opinions on the arts. That's all I'm doing. You do it too.

Originally Posted by Taramarie

at your age you should have learned some manners. I hope the next generation has some sensitivity.

Same to you.

And take heed of what I said.

You didn't follow the discussion, Tara. You just reacted to my statement out of context. Mockingbird admitted that punk was ugly music (although he enjoys it), but said they created it out of frustration with the deindustrialization of England. So I said it could be expressed through beauty as well as the ugly. I think that's a good response to his statement. I am not telling anyone what to create. I am reminding him that circumstances do not dictate our expressions.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I can point out that I don't buy their excuses.

Everyone can and does express their opinions on the arts. That's all I'm doing. You do it too.

Yes they can and do but generally people do not go round saying people should change their style just because they do not like it. Bloody disgusting and it is not your place to go and suggest they change who they are. The ego on people like that sickens me. When it comes to whether people keep their style or not is a PERSONAL matter and none of your business!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Same to you.

And take heed of what I said.

You didn't follow the discussion, Tara. You just reacted to my statement out of context. Mockingbird admitted that punk was ugly music (although he enjoys it), but said they created it out of frustration with the deindustrialization of England. So I said it could be expressed through beauty as well as the ugly. I think that's a good response to his statement. I am not telling anyone what to create. I am reminding him that circumstances do not dictate our expressions.

At least I can appreciate artists who are different and respect those differences. Typical idealist boomer with extreme boomer qualities.

Originally Posted by mockingbirdstl

But see, ugliness was part of the point. (At least for punk rock.) As I said before, they were creating a music, and a fashion style, that was impossible to ignore. Something that would shake the establishment out of their complacency.

Having said that, I actually enjoy listening to punk rock. It can be very thrilling, even if my experience of it was only in the late, Americanized form of grunge.

Some would argue that Punk itself is as American as apple pie and Jesus. (Meaning an import that we made our own.) I don't want to turn this into a Ramones Vs Sex Pistols argument (the BF and I can argue that for hours, and he's probably more versed in Punk than anyone here who isn't themselves a devotee of Punk rock), but the fact is that the whole point of Punk was itself a rebellion against fashion and against what was then the rock Establishment.

That it was impossible to ignore was icing on the cake.

@Tara, seriously you can't name a punk band? Not even Blink 182, Greenday or Good Charlotte? Granted those three are what I call pop-punk but their musical roots are clearly in punk. Of course I've also argued like Jello Biafra that "A haircut is not a lifestyle, imagine Sid Vicious at 35!"

Originally Posted by Kinser79

Some would argue that Punk itself is as American as apple pie and Jesus. (Meaning an import that we made our own.) I don't want to turn this into a Ramones Vs Sex Pistols argument (the BF and I can argue that for hours, and he's probably more versed in Punk than anyone here who isn't themselves a devotee of Punk rock), but the fact is that the whole point of Punk was itself a rebellion against fashion and against what was then the rock Establishment.

That it was impossible to ignore was icing on the cake.

@Tara, seriously you can't name a punk band? Not even Blink 182, Greenday or Good Charlotte? Granted those three are what I call pop-punk but their musical roots are clearly in punk. Of course I've also argued like Jello Biafra that "A haircut is not a lifestyle, imagine Sid Vicious at 35!"

I never listened to that stuff.

It has been argued here that punk is ugly as music. To a certain extent I agree. However, I would say that ugliness has artistic value of itself. It is expressing the ugliness of proletarian life. That being said, Punk need not necessarily be ugly. I've been listening to this song lately and I've yet to find a song that Pergen has done that I would count as ugly (though I can find ugly music even in the pop-punk works of Greenday and Blink 182).



The inclusion of Balalaika in the track increases the musical beauty of the song immensely.

It should also be noted that Russia is in its 1T.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

And I will point out where I see the treasure lies. Close your eyes and see a better day! Suzanne will show you where to look amid the garbage and the flowers.

I treasure AC/DC and their modern incarnation, Airbourne.

[quote]
Yes, so do it with great art, like was done during the early 2T. Do it like Bob Dylan. A Hard Rain's A Gonna Fall! The early core punk musicians had no clue about that. The conditions were ugly, and the music was ugly. I say, create something beautiful. Light the darkness.
[quote]

Red light here.

But not with the quality of Dylan Thomas.

I don't know who that is.

Are you sure I don't expect to get dissed back? I defend what I like and express disapproval for what I don't. I don't like 3T heavy metal. So, diss me back. Go ahead, make my day.

I don't like <<you certainly know who>>

I mean, I know that people can express their true opinions about anything they like. If they are honest and sensitive to what is actually going on, and so am I, then we might actually agree. It's very rare, but certainly possible, for people to be aware of the truth to that extent, and come to an understanding.

A lot of times heavy metal exposes inconvenient truths. So that makes it the Al Gore of the music world.

That's correct, we don't.

Yup, and I hope you've noticed I've put the shrine thread on ignore.

See, there's lots of ways to liberate yourself than just making ugly music.

I don't make "ugly to Eric music", I just kick back and enjoy it.

Rags- Dylan Thomas was a poet (do not go gentle into that good nite)

It looks like a "real topic" is whether or not self-hating boomers will commit mass suicide to make the world a better place.
My guess is "no."