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Thread: Greece - Page 3







Post#51 at 09-05-2012 05:18 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Greece’s debt crisis could take a toll on its weekends.

In exchange for a second bailout, Greece’s creditors are demanding that the country’s officials mandate a six-day work week, the Guardian reports, citing a leaked letter from the European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund -- together known as the “troika.” In addition to the longer work week, the letter asks Greece to introduce other labor market reforms, like curbing the minimum wage and altering overtime limits.

The work week extension is just the latest in a series of conditions, including deep spending cuts, that the troika has placed on more aid money. The demands have heightened tensions within Greece as the Antonis Samaras, Greece’s prime minister, has struggled to hold on to a loose coalition. Last week, he told a meeting of the country’s conservative party officials that these latest austerity measures would be “the last such package of spending cuts."

Such cuts have had a tangible effect on a country that has seen suicides rise lately, according to CNN. The situation is similar in another nations across the eurozone.

At the same time, the conditions in Greece have strained its relationship with other European nations. On Tuesday, Germany’s Finance Minister reiterated statements meant to pressure Greece to meet the bailout demands ahead of a critical debt inspector’s report slated to be released in October.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1855760.html

OK -- so how does a country create a longer workweek when it already has high unemployment? Mandatory, uncompensated overtime? The sort in which the cost of living rises but one gets no gain from one's toil except the vicarious satisfaction of seeing elites live better? That's one way to get strikes, riots, and perhaps revolutions.

The bankers are the culprits. It used to be that bankers were the ones who offered credit but on such terms that people did anything possible to avoid dealing with banks. Like pooling together the resources of family members. Making do or doing without the consumer goodies. Relying upon sweat equity instead of borrowing. But that worked, too. It was harder, but it kept people independent of bankers.

Bankers insisted that a borrower put everything at risk if one wanted to start a business... and live frugally to the extreme until the profits overpower the debt service. Bankers insisted that borrowers open their personal lives to the scrutiny of the lender, and that paying off the loan took precedence over such things as new shoes for the kids. Bankers were as a rule the laziest and most cautious, unimaginative, and inflexible of businessmen -- and banking was the career choice for people who didn't want to put their egos on the line selling linens as a manufacturer's representative, study hard enough to be an engineer or physician, lacked the love of learning that one associates with a good lawyer, and didn't like getting their hands dirty or working up a sweat on the job. Such showed up in the pay.

Bankers got paid not so much for initiating loans as for collecting them. Banks ideally recycled the proceeds of loans as the loans were paid off, with interest covering expenses and turning a profit. But then the bankers got greedy. Quick bucks supplanted prudence in lending -- worldwide. We know how it worked in America, and how it failed. I wonder if it was any different in Greece, except that Greece was a poorer country and is now a much poorer country for it.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#52 at 11-07-2012 09:13 PM by Dave 89 [at joined Aug 2007 #posts 440]
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Meanwhile in Greece Austerity Measures pass parliament and violent protests break out.
ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Greece's Parliament passed a crucial austerity bill early Thursday in vote so close that it left the coalition government reeling from dissent.
The bill, which will further slash pensions and salaries, passed 153-128 in the 300-member Parliament. It came hours after rioters rampaged outside Parliament during an 80,000-strong anti-austerity demonstration, clashing with police who responded with tear gas, stun grenades and water cannons.
Approval of the cuts and tax increases worth €13.5 billion ($17 billion) over two years was a big step for Greek efforts to secure the next installment of its international rescue loans and stave off imminent bankruptcy.
The country's international creditors have demanded that the bill and the 2013 budget, due to be voted on Sunday, pass before they consider releasing an already delayed €31.5 billion installment from Greece's €240 billion bailout. Without it, Prime Minister Antonis Samaras says Greece will run out of money on Nov. 16.
"Greece made a big decisive and optimistic step today. A step toward recovery," Samaras said, adding that he was "very happy" with the result.
Development and growth for the country, which faces a sixth year of a deep recession in 2013, will come "only with a lot of work, with coordinated action, with investments," he said.
But the close vote was a major political blow to the three-party coalition government, which holds a total of 176 seats in Parliament. The result shows support for continued austerity three years into Greece's financial crisis is dwindling fast.
"The government now has very little margin to take measures like this again," said Dimitris Mardas, associate professor of economics at the University of Thessaloniki. "But unless it takes various obvious actions like limiting the black economy, addressing tax evasion and improving the country's investment framework, we may end up needing new measures. And then things will be very difficult."
Straight after the vote, two of the three coalition parties — Samaras' conservatives and former finance minister Evangelos Venizelos' socialists — expelled a total of seven dissenting deputies from their ranks.
Lawmakers from the third, the small Democratic Left, mostly abstained from the vote in accordance with their party's line. Leader Fotis Kouvelis had said he could not back labor reforms included in the bill.
During hours of acrimonious debate in Parliament, Samaras acknowledged that some of the measures in the bill were unfair, but insisted there were vital to avoid bankruptcy and Greece being forced out of the euro and back to its old currency, the drachma.
"This (bill) will finally rid the country of drachmophobia," he said.
"Many of these measures are fair and should have been taken years ago, without anyone asking us to," Samaras said. "Others are unfair — cutting wages and salaries — and there is no point in dressing this up as something else." But, he said, the alternative was bankruptcy that would trigger financial chaos as the country would likely have to leave the 17-country euro bloc.
The measures are for next year and 2014, and include new, deep pension cuts and tax hikes, a two-year increase in the retirement age to 67, and laws that will make it easier to fire and transfer civil servants who are currently guaranteed jobs for life.
The reforms aim to lower public debts but will in the process also hurt the economy, which is set to enter a sixth year of recession with unemployment at a record 25 percent.
"You are throwing people onto to the street, people who need a few more years till they get their pensions," said Panagiotis Lafazanis of the main opposition Syriza, or Radical Left, party. "What will happen to them? Will they starve?"
Ahead of the vote, tens of thousands of protesters braved torrential rain to shout anti-austerity slogans. The rally eventually turned violent outside Parliament, with hundreds of rioters hurling gasoline bombs and chunks of marble at police. Clouds of tear gas rose from central Syntagma Square as the police fought back.
"The towers are gone now, reduced to bloody rubble, along with all hopes for Peace in Our Time, in the United States or any other country. Make no mistake about it: We are At War now — with somebody — and we will stay At War with that mysterious Enemy for the rest of our lives." - Hunter S Thompson

The Empire is Decadent and Depraved







Post#53 at 01-23-2015 06:29 PM by Bronco80 [at Boise joined Nov 2013 #posts 964]
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So it looks like SYRIZA is not only going to be the leading party, but also might have an outside chance of an outright majority:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion...election,_2015

Is the regeneracy coming closer, at least in Europe?

Also, for fun, I'll post what is supposedly a 40-point platform from SYRIZA. Not a whole lot in there that seems unreasonable.

http://links.org.au/node/2888

1. Audit of the public debt and renegotiation of interest due and suspension of payments until the economy has revived and growth and employment return.
2. Demand the European Union to change the role of the European Central Bank so that it finances states and programs of public investment.
3. Raise income tax to 75% for all incomes over 500,000 euros.
4. Change the election laws to a proportional system.
5. Increase taxes on big companies to that of the European average.
6. Adoption of a tax on financial transactions and a special tax on luxury goods.
7. Prohibition of speculative financial derivatives.
8. Abolition of financial privileges for the Church and shipbuilding industry.
9. Combat the banks' secret [measures] and the flight of capital abroad.
10. Cut drastically military expenditures.
11. Raise minimum salary to the pre-cut level, 750 euros per month.
12. Use buildings of the government, banks and the Church for the homeless.
13. Open dining rooms in public schools to offer free breakfast and lunch to children.
14. Free health benefits to the unemployed, homeless and those with low salaries.
15. Subvention up to 30% of mortgage payments for poor families who cannot meet payments.
16. Increase of subsidies for the unemployed. Increase social protection for one-parent families, the aged, disabled, and families with no income.
17. Fiscal reductions for goods of primary necessity.
18. Nationalisation of banks.
19. Nationalisation of ex-public (service & utilities) companies in strategic sectors for the growth of the country (railroads, airports, mail, water).
20. Preference for renewable energy and defence of the environment.
21. Equal salaries for men and women.
22. Limitation of precarious hiring and support for contracts for indeterminate time.
23. Extension of the protection of labour and salaries of part-time workers.
24. Recovery of collective (labour) contracts.
25. Increase inspections of labour and requirements for companies making bids for public contracts.
26. Constitutional reforms to guarantee separation of church and state and protection of the right to education, health care and the environment.
27. Referendums on treaties and other accords with Europe.
28. Abolition of privileges for parliamentary deputies. Removal of special juridical protection for ministers and permission for the courts to proceed against members of the government.
29. Demilitarisation of the Coast Guard and anti-insurrectional special troops. Prohibition for police to wear masks or use fire arms during demonstrations. Change training courses for police so as to underline social themes such as immigration, drugs and social factors.
30. Guarantee human rights in immigrant detention centres.
31. Facilitate the reunion of immigrant families.
32. Depenalisation of consumption of drugs in favor of battle against drug traffic. Increase funding for drug rehab centres.
33. Regulate the right of conscientious objection in draft laws.
34. Increase funding for public health up to the average European level.(The European average is 6% of GDP; in Greece 3%.)
35. Elimination of payments by citizens for national health services.
36. Nationalisation of private hospitals. Elimination of private participation in the national health system.
37. Withdrawal of Greek troops from Afghanistan and the Balkans. No Greek soldiers beyond our own borders.
38. Abolition of military cooperation with Israel. Support for creation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.
39. Negotiation of a stable accord with Turkey.
40. Closure of all foreign bases in Greece and withdrawal from NATO.







Post#54 at 01-23-2015 08:56 PM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bronco80 View Post
So it looks like SYRIZA is not only going to be the leading party, but also might have an outside chance of an outright majority:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion...election,_2015

Is the regeneracy coming closer, at least in Europe?

Also, for fun, I'll post what is supposedly a 40-point platform from SYRIZA. Not a whole lot in there that seems unreasonable.

http://links.org.au/node/2888
Some of it is OK but the demilitarization would result in eventual invasion by the Serbs, the Turks, the Russians or all of the above. European countries need to beef up their military capabilities and stop relying so much on "World Police" (e.g. us). The other problem is the 700K Euro line for deeming someone rich. That is nothing. It is arguably upper middle class given how high cost Europe is. Don't attack the Middle Class or even the Lower Upper Class. They are not the problem. Attack them and it is committing suicide.







Post#55 at 01-24-2015 01:18 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84 View Post
Some of it is OK but the demilitarization would result in eventual invasion by the Serbs, the Turks, the Russians or all of the above. European countries need to beef up their military capabilities and stop relying so much on "World Police" (e.g. us). The other problem is the 700K Euro line for deeming someone rich. That is nothing. It is arguably upper middle class given how high cost Europe is. Don't attack the Middle Class or even the Lower Upper Class. They are not the problem. Attack them and it is committing suicide.
The Greeks don't need to worry about the Serbs or the Turks, and probably not the Russians, none of whom have their eyes on Greece; but I agree they need to do their part and I hope they don't withdraw from NATO. But I understand where they are coming from. Suicide, I dunno. It seems pretty steep taxes to me, unless there's loopholes. But the rich do have a strangehold on Greece. I doubt taking money away from them would be bad, let alone suicide. Trickle-down doesn't trickle. But, there's something to be said for the motivation to get rich through creating or running a business and investing, and its benefits to a nation. Just not as much as conservatives say.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#56 at 01-24-2015 02:11 AM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
The Greeks don't need to worry about the Serbs or the Turks, and probably not the Russians, none of whom have their eyes on Greece; but I agree they need to do their part and I hope they don't withdraw from NATO. But I understand where they are coming from. Suicide, I dunno. It seems pretty steep taxes to me, unless there's loopholes. But the rich do have a strangehold on Greece. I doubt taking money away from them would be bad, let alone suicide. Trickle-down doesn't trickle. But, there's something to be said for the motivation to get rich through creating or running a business and investing, and its benefits to a nation. Just not as much as conservatives say.
I have no issue with taxing the bejesus out of the super rich. Just leave the almost rich, and barely rich alone. They are literally "the millionaire next door" in many of the middle income areas of Europe and North America.







Post#57 at 01-24-2015 03:08 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Good for Greece! Go SYRIZA!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#58 at 01-24-2015 09:07 AM by Bronco80 [at Boise joined Nov 2013 #posts 964]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Good for Greece! Go SYRIZA!
I definitely thought you'd like this bump.

And I do agree that the anti-NATO plank was one of the few that I did disagree with. Thankfully it was also dead last on the list.







Post#59 at 01-25-2015 11:12 PM by Bronco80 [at Boise joined Nov 2013 #posts 964]
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Seems like SYRIZA is going to fall just short of an outright majority. If so, it'll be interesting to see who they form a coalition with.







Post#60 at 01-26-2015 02:10 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bronco80 View Post
Seems like SYRIZA is going to fall just short of an outright majority. If so, it'll be interesting to see who they form a coalition with.
We got our answer, and it makes a weird kind of sense. SYRIZA is primarily about debt servitude. I think they have no problem staying inside the Euro, if a debt holiday is declared. Partnering with a bunch of right-wing lunatics energizes the rest of the politicians, both in and outside Greece, to find non-lunatic solutions. Let's see how it plays.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#61 at 01-26-2015 03:48 PM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
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It's high time to put the EU to bed. It was an interesting experiment that has failed. Time to move on, and the Greeks get it!







Post#62 at 01-26-2015 04:18 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84 View Post
It's high time to put the EU to bed. It was an interesting experiment that has failed. Time to move on, and the Greeks get it!
I think the EU is less an issue if the common currency is removed as a hindrance. An open trading block in Europe should be a net plus, assuming the various nations economic structures can be aligned properly. Having the Euro made that impossible, since the EU was never going to become the United States of Europe. It's better to agree that the idea had merit (even if it really didn't), and move back to the status quo ante. In another 100 years, Europe may be ready for political union. Then, the Euro could work..
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#63 at 01-26-2015 04:33 PM by Bronco80 [at Boise joined Nov 2013 #posts 964]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
We got our answer, and it makes a weird kind of sense. SYRIZA is primarily about debt servitude. I think they have no problem staying inside the Euro, if a debt holiday is declared. Partnering with a bunch of right-wing lunatics energizes the rest of the politicians, both in and outside Greece, to find non-lunatic solutions. Let's see how it plays.
Yep, Tsipras made it clear with this coalition that he wants to attack austerity. I can't imagine that this coalition will last much longer after that attempt is made, but indeed we'll see how it plays out.







Post#64 at 01-26-2015 05:37 PM by XYMOX_4AD_84 [at joined Nov 2012 #posts 3,073]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
I think the EU is less an issue if the common currency is removed as a hindrance. An open trading block in Europe should be a net plus, assuming the various nations economic structures can be aligned properly. Having the Euro made that impossible, since the EU was never going to become the United States of Europe. It's better to agree that the idea had merit (even if it really didn't), and move back to the status quo ante. In another 100 years, Europe may be ready for political union. Then, the Euro could work..
An entity like the EU is not needed for a trading bloc. A trading bloc can happen between any consenting group of nations.







Post#65 at 01-26-2015 05:53 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84 View Post
An entity like the EU is not needed for a trading bloc. A trading bloc can happen between any consenting group of nations.
True, but the EU grew out of the European Common Market for a reason. Europe is a bit unique, with so many first-world nation-states packed into such a small area .. and they all have history with one another. The EU was their shot at setting some rules in place, and a structure to change them when necessary. Until they got it in their heads that a common currency was the next logical step, everything was going pretty well. Even the Brits were on-board.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#66 at 01-27-2015 12:07 AM by Bad Dog [at joined Dec 2012 #posts 2,156]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
True, but the EU grew out of the European Common Market for a reason. Europe is a bit unique, with so many first-world nation-states packed into such a small area .. and they all have history with one another. The EU was their shot at setting some rules in place, and a structure to change them when necessary. Until they got it in their heads that a common currency was the next logical step, everything was going pretty well. Even the Brits were on-board.
Except for the pound sterling. And, unconditional US nuclear guarantees. And, the Brits have the Royals (strong national identity, previous hegemony).

I can see bailing from the euro, but not the EU, for many of the debtor states. A Gresham's Law economy will develop, just as Russians hoard USD's.







Post#67 at 01-27-2015 07:53 AM by radind [at Alabama joined Sep 2009 #posts 1,595]
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Europe is changing. It is not clear yet where this will go.
The New Drivers of Europe's Geopolitics

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/new-d...#axzz3PxWiORCF
… "the argument about austerity is over. The European Central Bank ended the austerity regime half-heartedly last week, and the Syriza victory sent an earthquake through Europe's political system, although the Eurocratic elite will dismiss it as an outlier. If Europe's defaults — structured or unstructured — surge as a result, the question of the euro becomes an interesting but non-critical issue. What will become the issue, and what is already becoming the issue, is free trade. That is the core of the European concept, and that is the next issue on the agenda as the German narrative loses credibility and the Greek narrative replaces it as the conventional wisdom.

It is not hard to imagine the disaster that would ensue if the United States were to export 50 percent of its GDP, and half of it went to Canada and Mexico. A free-trade zone in which the giant pivot is not a net importer can't work. And that is exactly the situation in Europe. Its pivot is Germany, but rather than serving as the engine of growth by being an importer, it became the world's fourth-largest national economy by exporting half its GDP. That can’t possibly be sustainable.”…







Post#68 at 01-27-2015 12:50 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by radind View Post
Europe is changing. It is not clear yet where this will go.

The New Drivers of Europe's Geopolitics

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/new-d...#axzz3PxWiORCF
… "the argument about austerity is over. The European Central Bank ended the austerity regime half-heartedly last week, and the Syriza victory sent an earthquake through Europe's political system, although the Eurocratic elite will dismiss it as an outlier. If Europe's defaults — structured or unstructured — surge as a result, the question of the euro becomes an interesting but non-critical issue. What will become the issue, and what is already becoming the issue, is free trade. That is the core of the European concept, and that is the next issue on the agenda as the German narrative loses credibility and the Greek narrative replaces it as the conventional wisdom.

It is not hard to imagine the disaster that would ensue if the United States were to export 50 percent of its GDP, and half of it went to Canada and Mexico. A free-trade zone in which the giant pivot is not a net importer can't work. And that is exactly the situation in Europe. Its pivot is Germany, but rather than serving as the engine of growth by being an importer, it became the world's fourth-largest national economy by exporting half its GDP. That can’t possibly be sustainable.”…
I don't see Germany agreeing to this new paradigm very quickly. They've been living in an unrealistic bubble for a long time, and the bubble bursting will come as a total shock. They firmly believe they have been the pillars of virtue. Worse, they may have to raise worker pay!
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#69 at 01-27-2015 01:35 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
I think the EU is less an issue if the common currency is removed as a hindrance. An open trading block in Europe should be a net plus, assuming the various nations economic structures can be aligned properly. Having the Euro made that impossible, since the EU was never going to become the United States of Europe. It's better to agree that the idea had merit (even if it really didn't), and move back to the status quo ante. In another 100 years, Europe may be ready for political union. Then, the Euro could work..
I think the idealist Eurocrats massively screwed the pooch, they overreached and thus turned Europeans against the very idea of European political unity and caused a rebirth of malignant nationalism.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#70 at 01-27-2015 01:39 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
True, but the EU grew out of the European Common Market for a reason. Europe is a bit unique, with so many first-world nation-states packed into such a small area .. and they all have history with one another. The EU was their shot at setting some rules in place, and a structure to change them when necessary. Until they got it in their heads that a common currency was the next logical step, everything was going pretty well. Even the Brits were on-board.
The EU is ultimately a political project aimed at exorcizing the evil of nationalism using economic connectedness as a means to that end. It failed
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#71 at 01-27-2015 01:45 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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It's really funny, I just finished a seminar on "The Idea of Europe" taught by two visiting Dutch professors/officials/Eurocrats (Boomers), and it was truly funny to see them basically acknowledge that the EU had driven itself into a dead-end while simultaneously having no idea how to fix it or even where they went wrong.

If they're representative of the EU elite consensus, which reading the news suggests, the Continent is in for a world of pain.







Post#72 at 01-27-2015 02:13 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I think the idealist Eurocrats massively screwed the pooch, they overreached and thus turned Europeans against the very idea of European political unity and caused a rebirth of malignant nationalism.

The EU is ultimately a political project aimed at exorcizing the evil of nationalism using economic connectedness as a means to that end. It failed
Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
It's really funny, I just finished a seminar on "The Idea of Europe" taught by two visiting Dutch professors/officials/Eurocrats (Boomers), and it was truly funny to see them basically acknowledge that the EU had driven itself into a dead-end while simultaneously having no idea how to fix it or even where they went wrong.

If they're representative of the EU elite consensus, which reading the news suggests, the Continent is in for a world of pain.
The problem with Europe is one of identity. The French are still French, Germans are German and the rest are what they are as well. I don't see that changing soon, so the continent will have to undergo a bit of communal strife for bonding to occur.

Strife may be on the way.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#73 at 01-27-2015 02:23 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed View Post
It's really funny, I just finished a seminar on "The Idea of Europe" taught by two visiting Dutch professors/officials/Eurocrats (Boomers), and it was truly funny to see them basically acknowledge that the EU had driven itself into a dead-end while simultaneously having no idea how to fix it or even where they went wrong.

If they're representative of the EU elite consensus, which reading the news suggests, the Continent is in for a world of pain.
Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
The problem with Europe is one of identity. The French are still French, Germans are German and the rest are what they are as well. I don't see that changing soon, so the continent will have to undergo a bit of communal strife for bonding to occur.

Strife may be on the way.
This is exactly what Toynbee called the "worship of an ephemeral self". Worship of the city state as a political institution lead to the breakdown of the Hellenic Civilization, and the worship of the nation-state has lead to the breakdown of our civilization. The failure of the EU confirms that the West is starting on the path to disintegration.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#74 at 01-27-2015 02:38 PM by JordanGoodspeed [at joined Mar 2013 #posts 3,587]
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01-27-2015, 02:38 PM #74
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Oh, I think there is a lot more to the breakdown than that, but I do partly agree. Western (as opposed to industrial civilization more broadly) civilization has been pretty much been pointed downhill since 1914.







Post#75 at 01-28-2015 12:14 PM by radind [at Alabama joined Sep 2009 #posts 1,595]
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01-28-2015, 12:14 PM #75
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A positive move. However, I am still concerned about the impact of the fiscal policies of the new governments .


New Greek government raises hopes for science

Swift appointment of a physicist as research minister seen as positive step by scientists.


http://www.nature.com/news/new-greek...TWT_NatureNews
… "Just a day after it was formed on 26 January, the new Greek government has given strong signals that it is taking science seriously: it has appointed a leading scientist as research minister. Costas Fotakis, director of the Greek Foundation for Research and Technology (FORTH) Institute of Electronic Structure and Laser (IESL) in Heraklion, and a physicist at the University of Crete, will be taking up the post today. The appointment — and its extraordinary speed — took the research community by surprise, but many scientists say that it gives them grounds for an optimism that they have not felt for a long time.”….
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