From what I can tell, Germany doesn't want to pay off Greek debts; which is understandable. But austerity policies do not revive economies; they only cause pain and perpetuate the problem. Some sort of stimulus may be needed, maybe from the central bank, and there may be wealthy Greeks who get off without paying enough in taxes, and this may be a source of stimulus too. Greek industry, agriculture and tourism need to revive.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

From what I can tell, Germany doesn't want to pay off Greek debts; which is understandable. But austerity policies do not revive economies; they only cause pain and perpetuate the problem. Some sort of stimulus may be needed, maybe from the central bank, and there may be wealthy Greeks who get off without paying enough in taxes, and this may be a source of stimulus too. Greek industry, agriculture and tourism need to revive.

When countries signed onto the euro, they should have known that responsible stimulus to all of its members is needed at times over debt management. Germany and other powerful eurozone nations need to realize that they're all in it together now.

Originally Posted by Bronco80

When countries signed onto the euro, they should have known that responsible stimulus to all of its members is needed at times over debt management. Germany and other powerful eurozone nations need to realize that they're all in it together now.

I doubt the Germans even give that a thought. They will when the Eurozone collapses, and they'll blame everyone except themselves.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

From what I can tell, Germany doesn't want to pay off Greek debts; which is understandable. But austerity policies do not revive economies; they only cause pain and perpetuate the problem. Some sort of stimulus may be needed, maybe from the central bank, and there may be wealthy Greeks who get off without paying enough in taxes, and this may be a source of stimulus too. Greek industry, agriculture and tourism need to revive.

I suspect German domestic politics are a big source of the trouble. There was a good segment on the BBC World Service yesterday about how Germans are extremely debt-averse) and believe that to be why the German economy is relatively healthy compared to other developed countries) and expect other EU members to be the same. There is a common sentiment in Germany about being sick of "subsidizing" the southern European EU members, which are seen by the Germans as having electorates with no fiscal self-control.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

I doubt the Germans even give that a thought. They will when the Eurozone collapses, and they'll blame everyone except themselves.

They will blame everyone else for not having their cultural dislike of debt and not learn a thing.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

I doubt the Germans even give that a thought. They will when the Eurozone collapses, and they'll blame everyone except themselves.

1. The Germans are just being toadies for big Euro banks. Perhaps the TPTB there don't want anyone in on that secret.
2. Message for Greece , 2 words. *"Default now".

*I think "default now" would actually be an awesome thing everywhere. I prefer to think of it as a kinder, gentler form of "OPERATION MAYHEM" from Fight Club. The mere thought of TBTF banks actually failing gives me a nice warm fuzzy feeling.

Originally Posted by Odin

I suspect German domestic politics are a big source of the trouble. There was a good segment on the BBC World Service yesterday about how Germans are extremely debt-averse) and believe that to be why the German economy is relatively healthy compared to other developed countries) and expect other EU members to be the same. There is a common sentiment in Germany about being sick of "subsidizing" the southern European EU members, which are seen by the Germans as having electorates with no fiscal self-control.

There's some humor here. They are killing it by being the largest and totally dominant EZ internal exporter, while expecting others to do likewise. We should all wish them good luck with that.

So the Greeks caved.

Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed

So the Greeks caved.

Yes indeed, but it doesn't change the basic fact their goose is cooked.

Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed

So the Greeks caved.

That's a bit severe, don't you think? The Greeks are just following the guidance of Sun Tzu, and not engaging a battle they can't win. Instead, they're trying to move the battle to the one that pits their opponents against one another. I can't say that will succeed, but it's better than getting ground into the dirt from git-go.

To be honest, they have a very weak hand to play, and no one on their team has the experience to play it any better than they have so far. Eventually, stalling will no longer work, and a definitive solution will have to be tried. Let's judge then.

I'll believe it when I see it. Until then it just sounds like more wish-fulfillment from you.

Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed

I'll believe it when I see it. Until then it just sounds like more wish-fulfillment from you.

I don't hold out a lot of hope either, but credit to the Greeks for not folding like a house of cards. Now, they have four months to find a solution. It wouldn't surprise me if their solution is Russian backing, which isn't much better than nothing. The Russians have enough troubles of their own, but poking the Germans in the eye may be to good to pass up.

Shit's getting real. I guess "arrears" will be the new catch word.

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/p...4743f5b293ae6b

Originally Posted by Bronco80

Shit's getting real. I guess "arrears" will be the new catch word.

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/p...4743f5b293ae6b

This?

Originally Posted by IMF

“I confirm that the SDR 1.2 billion repayment (about EUR 1.5 billion) due by Greece to the IMF today has not been received.

Actually, it should be called a "credit event". That would force some array of derivatives to be actionable. An example would be credit default swaps as they pertain to Greece. Those who hold such instruments would receive compensation from Big Banking who sold them.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

This?



Actually, it should be called a "credit event". That would force some array of derivatives to be actionable. An example would be credit default swaps as they pertain to Greece. Those who hold such instruments would receive compensation from Big Banking who sold them.

I think I just made ~ a buck or something (on paper) ...

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/...socialism.html
...There are no “good” options for now to end this Greek tragedy. It’s best for Greece to take the least bad option, which would be forced bankruptcy. Let Greece go bankrupt. And then let this once rich nation, hit the restart button to rebuild its economy.

What I’m suggesting for Greece is what we might call the Detroit option. Put Greece under receivership and let these new authorities figure out how to manage the debt and decide who will take a hair cut – pensioners, bond holders, welfare recipients, government workers, the IMF. It’s tough love, but it’s the only way out...

I can already hear the heart palpitations of the Wall Street investors...

But every option is worse...

One implication of this solution is that investors may start to view sovereign debt as risky, not risk free...

The big lie is that Greece has already lived through austerity...

And then shut down the IMF and World Bank which helped create these debt crises in the first place...

What did people expect when you lend money to socialists and (in some cases) unregenerate communists and fascists? Sheesh.

Originally Posted by JDG 66

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/...socialism.html
...There are no “good” options for now to end this Greek tragedy. It’s best for Greece to take the least bad option, which would be forced bankruptcy. Let Greece go bankrupt. And then let this once rich nation, hit the restart button to rebuild its economy.

What I’m suggesting for Greece is what we might call the Detroit option. Put Greece under receivership and let these new authorities figure out how to manage the debt and decide who will take a hair cut – pensioners, bond holders, welfare recipients, government workers, the IMF. It’s tough love, but it’s the only way out...

I can already hear the heart palpitations of the Wall Street investors...

But every option is worse...

One implication of this solution is that investors may start to view sovereign debt as risky, not risk free...

The big lie is that Greece has already lived through austerity...

And then shut down the IMF and World Bank which helped create these debt crises in the first place...

What did people expect when you lend money to socialists and (in some cases) unregenerate communists and fascists? Sheesh.

Funny that you and Paul Krugman both believe that Greece should exit the Euro. Whoda thunk?

Originally Posted by JDG 66

...There are no “good” options for now to end this Greek tragedy. It’s best for Greece to take the least bad option, which would be forced bankruptcy. Let Greece go bankrupt. And then let this once rich nation, hit the restart button to rebuild its economy.

The question at the moment is whether the powers that be will even let Greece take that option...

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

Funny that you and Paul Krugman both believe that Greece should exit the Euro. Whoda thunk?

Milton Friedman also thought the euro would be a disaster. There was little disagreement among economists of all stripes. But what has to be remembered is that the euro was more of a political project than an economic one, to try to bring Europe ever closer together. The irony, of course, is that the economic implications are tearing those political goals apart as we speak.

Originally Posted by Bronco80

Milton Friedman also thought the euro would be a disaster. There was little disagreement among economists of all stripes. But what has to be remembered is that the euro was more of a political project than an economic one, to try to bring Europe ever closer together. The irony, of course, is that the economic implications are tearing those political goals apart as we speak.

*DING SING DING* We have a winner.

I'm beginning to doubt if the EU will survive this 4T.

Originally Posted by herbal tee

I'm beginning to doubt if the EU will survive this 4T.

I think it will survive, but it will be smaller and different than it is now. Greece is the obvious flash point right now, but the big question will be the possible UK referendum on the subject. If the Brits leave that's a huge member that's bailing on the project.

Originally Posted by Bronco80

... If the Brits leave that's a huge member that's bailing on the project.

The Brits use the Euro? I didn't think that was the case.

The Brits weren't all that hip to join. They could have been a charter member in 1957. But ''The Seven'' became ''The Six'' as the concept of little England won out over big England. Little England chose to keep the pound and may well leave the EU.

Originally Posted by TnT

The Brits use the Euro? I didn't think that was the case.

The UK does not use the Euro, they use the Pound which is why like the US their austerity has been mild in comparison to other countries.

That said, indications seem to be that if Greece doesn't get a bail out again soon they will be forced to leave the Euro and will likely go back to the Drachma. That would be good for Greece and bad for the Eurozone. Of course the Euro was destined to fail anyway, currency unions only work in the context of political union. The most successful currency unions have been the US, UK, Germany and the USSR.

In the US during the civil war the north unified the currency under the US treasury. Before then dollars were printed by banks in the states with hundreds of designs. In the UK after the act of union the Irish Pound, and Scots Pound were replaced by the British Pound which replaced the English Pound at par. In Germany the Reichsmark, replaced by the Deutschmark later, replaced about 25 different local currencies. In the USSR the ruble replaced 15 currencies.

Originally Posted by TnT

The Brits use the Euro? I didn't think that was the case.

It's not. HT asked about the EU instead of the eurozone, which is why I added that.