Originally Posted by Poodle

Please, we need NEW information and insight.

Actually, I think a ham sandwich might be an improvement over any of the GOP candidates we've heard suggested.

Of the 4 oft cited GOP contenders I offer these appraisals:

Newt Gingrich: the GOP's Hillary. Like her, smart, experienced, accomplished in politics. Also like her, grating personal qualities, petty and mean spirited towards opponents. Both Dull personalities and cold fishes. Smart guy but he aint the answer....

Sarah Palin: Inexperienced and too much baggage. She should stick to firing up the base for OTHER candidates.

Mike Huckabee: Nice guy....too nice to be a Pres....Another dullard too. Also...a President named Huckabee??? Well we do have a B. Hussien Obama so I guess it sounds ok...

Mitt Romney: About the only one of these four I might be able to support. Upon first appearance he has a Ken doll presence. All flash no substance. But seeing him on some late night talk shows he's actually quite funny. Has business experience that might be useful in a bad economy-might be an asset in '12. IMO best of the 4, but thats not saying much.

Hopefully I'd like to see these guys emerge:

John Thune: Smart, experienced, Joneser, looks Presidential and yes that does matter in our media obsessed culture.

Mitch Daniels: Apparently quite a popular Governor from Indiana. I personally dont know much about him but he gets rave reviews from many quarters.

Chris Christie: Really starting to think this guy is great. He's not afraid to tangle with powerful New Jersey interests like the Unions. He can stand toe to toe with obnoxious protesters. Downside is his weight. But considering 50% of Americans are lardbutts maybe it would be his trump card. He is more socially moderate but frankly I could care less about that right now and I think most conservatives would look past that too. Also he is an Xer

Bob McDonnell: Another new Governor and a true conservative. He has the Reaganesque ability to brush off charges of being an "extremist". Definately will run at some point. I hope its in '12...

Bobby Jindal: After the 2009 address I wrote him off but he has rebounded and has gotten good review for his leadership during the oil spill. He is an Xer which is a plus.

Tim Pawlenty:zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzz

According to this WSJ/NBC poll, 71% of Republicans are tea party supporters. Among those, 2/3 have a favorable opinion of Palin, slightly more than half have a favorable opinion of Huckabee and Gingrich, and only 40% have a favorable opinion of Romney.

If Romney won the Republican nomination, it would be as if the tea parties never happened. His MA health care plan was the model for Obamacare. He changes his positions on issues at the drop of a hat. He was the favored candidate of the party establishment in 2008. Considering how overwhelming opposition to Obama's health care bill is among Republicans, I find it impossible to believe he could be nominated. Which is a good thing, because he would be a terrible candidate.

Run, Newt, Run! then we can tell everyone about how you abandoned your cancer-inflicted wife for a younger woman (he and John Edward will make good company in Hell)!

from JPT

According to this WSJ/NBC poll, 71% of Republicans are tea party supporters. Among those, 2/3 have a favorable opinion of Palin, slightly more than half have a favorable opinion of Huckabee and Gingrich, and only 40% have a favorable opinion of Romney.

This is wonderful news for Obama and Democrats. The one person with the greatest chance to appeal to Independents is Romney. And he is one disliked by most Republican true believers who vote in primaries. Palin is disliked by a majority of voters but seems loved by these likely GOP primary voters. Go Sarah!!!!!!!!!

And there you have the Republican Party's long-term dilemma in a nutshell.

I just thought of the perfect term to describe the Tea Party movement, one that hasn't been brought out of mothballs in a while, but it fits: counterculture. Where Boomers back in the Awakening had a counterculture on the left, the TP is a counterculture on the right. Theirs is a response to the victory of ours.

A counterculture is a movement that poses cultural idea that are different from those held by the majority of people. These ideas may be held very fervently, and they define the movement. The Republican Party is becoming increasingly tied to the counterculture of the Tea Party.

That's a problem in the long-term because what is appealing to the Tea Party is strongly unappealing to the rest of the country, which constitutes the majority. It's hurting the GOP even this year in races where the Tea Party candidates have secured nominations. In future elections, it will be the kiss of death.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

The Republican Party is becoming increasingly tied to the counterculture of the Tea Party.

Definitely. If the NeoCons hadn't hijacked the Republican party, it would still represent far more moderate views and wouldn't be the laughingstock it is today.

Counterculture on the right is a perfect description Brian. That is a wonderful label to put on the Tea party movement. When you look at those who attend their rallies, they tend to be people in their fifties and sixties - mostly boomers with some older X'ers thrown in as well. These are people that were most likely never comfortable with societal changes in their lifetimes and nostalgically yearn for simpler and 'better' times.

There are always who will fit that mold - no matter what era of history we are living in. But today change comes so fast and so often that you can understand why some feel left out, left behind and without real alternatives. I expect that most of the Tea Party movement gets sucked up by the GOP and uses them just like they use every other non-Wall Street wing of that party. Until these folks are ready to do the really hard work of building a truly independent third party divorced from the GOP and Wall Street they are doomed to not even getting half the loaf they might otherwise settle for. They will be lucky to get a slice or two if that.

This will then anger them even more which will cause some to become more alienated and more separated from the majority in this country. The real question then becomes do they just sit home and wait to die or do they really get pissed off and do something about it?

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

According to this WSJ/NBC poll, 71% of Republicans are tea party supporters. Among those, 2/3 have a favorable opinion of Palin, slightly more than half have a favorable opinion of Huckabee and Gingrich, and only 40% have a favorable opinion of Romney.

If Romney won the Republican nomination, it would be as if the tea parties never happened. His MA health care plan was the model for Obamacare. He changes his positions on issues at the drop of a hat. He was the favored candidate of the party establishment in 2008. Considering how overwhelming opposition to Obama's health care bill is among Republicans, I find it impossible to believe he could be nominated. Which is a good thing, because he would be a terrible candidate.

If 71% of the Republicans are Tea Party Movement supporters, then about 21% of Americans are Republicans and Tea Party Movement supporters. That loud, cranky movement might be enough to rule -- but not to win the overall election.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

And there you have the Republican Party's long-term dilemma in a nutshell.

I just thought of the perfect term to describe the Tea Party movement, one that hasn't been brought out of mothballs in a while, but it fits: counterculture. Where Boomers back in the Awakening had a counterculture on the left, the TP is a counterculture on the right. Theirs is a response to the victory of ours.

A counterculture is a movement that poses cultural idea that are different from those held by the majority of people. These ideas may be held very fervently, and they define the movement. The Republican Party is becoming increasingly tied to the counterculture of the Tea Party.

You have it right there.


There might be no beads, sandals, tie-dyed T-shirts, or drugs -- but like the left-wing counterculture of forty years ago it is out of touch with the rest of America. It's largely Boom, so some of the pathological narcissism and contempt for rationality is there. If it is not GI-like, neither is it the sort of cause to win the affection of the Millennial Generation.

Don't get me wrong -- the beads, sandals, tie-died T-shirts, and folk music were OK. The drugs and irrationality weren't.

That's a problem in the long-term because what is appealing to the Tea Party is strongly unappealing to the rest of the country, which constitutes the majority. It's hurting the GOP even this year in races where the Tea Party candidates have secured nominations. In future elections, it will be the kiss of death.

It may also hurt those who have adopted the agenda of the Tea Party Movement without "joining".

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Don't get me wrong -- the beads, sandals, tie-died T-shirts, and folk music were OK. The drugs and irrationality weren't.

It's a mistake to define the counterculture in either era by its peripheral trappings. The important elements of the Awakening counterculture have become part of the mainstream culture today. It's those elements that the Tea Party counterculture rejects. The Tea Party is a reactionary counterculture. It's reacting to the societal changes sparked in the 2T.

The President’s Backyard Discussion of the Economy (as It Could Be) | CommonDreams.org
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/09...

President Obama continues his economic tour today (Wednesday) with stops in Des Moines, Iowa, and Richmond, Va. In Des Moines he hosts a backyard discussion on the challenges currently facing the middle class with approximately 70 neighbors from the area, according to the White House. Here’s an imagined version of that discussion:

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

It's a mistake to define the counterculture in either era by its peripheral trappings. The important elements of the Awakening counterculture have become part of the mainstream culture today. It's those elements that the Tea Party counterculture rejects. The Tea Party is a reactionary counterculture. It's reacting to the societal changes sparked in the 2T.

Unlike the hippies, the Tea Party crowd seems to lack any creativity. The only way in which they get to enforce their culture is to repress everything else.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Unlike the hippies, the Tea Party crowd seems to lack any creativity. The only way in which they get to enforce their culture is to repress everything else.

That's true. Another way of saying more or less the same thing is that the 2T counterculture was progressive, ahead of its time, while the TP is reactionary, behind the times, wanting to turn back the clock and preserve something that's disappearing.

But I wasn't looking to criticize it or call it names. I was just pointing out the fact that it is a cultural minority. Unlike the counterculture of the 2T, it's also going to stay one, and to shrink over time. For the GOP to bind itself to this movement is to commit suicide.

Take heart! The Coffee Party is rising up to challenge the Tea Party* with hip youthful enthusiasm! Show those old white people what the future looks like!

Oh..crap...

Come on Brian Rush, pbrower and the rest, fess up...which one of the people in that audience is you?


*(made up solely of old white people whose outdated world view is rapidly fading in the face of never-ending left wing triumph that will go on forever and ever)

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

Take heart! The Coffee Party is rising up to challenge the Tea Party* with hip youthful enthusiasm! Show those old white people what the future looks like!

Oh..crap...

Come on Brian Rush, pbrower and the rest, fess up...which one of the people in that audience is you?


*(made up solely of old white people whose outdated world view is rapidly fading in the face of never-ending left wing triumph that will go on forever and ever)

Haha wow...
I had a feeling the Coffee Party was mostly Boomer just based on Boomers being the only people I know that are enthusiastic about it.

Just a quick note: Rahm Emanuel has stepped down as White House Chief of Staff. The Obama administration has now shed all but one of the major controversial figures that so appalled progressives when the administration was first formed in 2009. The one exception is of course Timothy Geithner. I am hoping that, some time after the election, we will see a pattern for the administration's second two years, which hopefully will be different -- and more forcefully progressive -- than the first two years.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Just a quick note: Rahm Emanuel has stepped down as White House Chief of Staff. The Obama administration has now shed all but one of the major controversial figures that so appalled progressives when the administration was first formed in 2009. The one exception is of course Timothy Geithner. I am hoping that, some time after the election, we will see a pattern for the administration's second two years, which hopefully will be different -- and more forcefully progressive -- than the first two years.

Actually Im hoping he continues down the hard left path he's on too, in fact I hope he doubles down. This will ensure a Republican winning the White House in '12......

Originally Posted by Weave

Actually Im hoping he continues down the hard left path he's on too, in fact I hope he doubles down. This will ensure a Republican winning the White House in '12......

Not if the Tea Party Movement/John Birch Society/GOP political hacks make fools of themselves.

Originally Posted by Weave

Actually Im hoping he continues down the hard left path he's on too, in fact I hope he doubles down. This will ensure a Republican winning the White House in '12......

You think that because you think that progressive policies are unpopular. I think that if progressive policies were unpopular, Obama would have lost in '08. It's not like he was a stealth candidate.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

It's not like he was a stealth candidate.

Not to people who actually listened to what he was saying. Unfortunately most didn't listen, or didn't understand.

Originally Posted by Weave

Actually Im hoping he continues down the hard left path he's on too, in fact I hope he doubles down. This will ensure a Republican winning the White House in '12......

We think alike. I honestly hope the Republicans don't win control of the Senate. First because they have not demonstrated that they deserve it, and second because it will keep the responsibility on the Democrats for their failed policies.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

Not to people who actually listened to what he was saying. Unfortunately most didn't listen, or didn't understand.

I think most did listen, and decided they liked the Euro-style socialism more than corporate domination.

The fact that he has failed to deliver on this and people are upset with him is not evidence that they like corporate domination.

Originally Posted by Silifi

I think most did listen, and decided they liked the Euro-style socialism more than corporate domination.

The fact that he has failed to deliver on this and people are upset with him is not evidence that they like corporate domination.

The only way you can possibly believe that is if you have somehow completely shut yourself off from any source of information that isn't from the outer fringes of the far left, or you're actively lying to yourself about what's happened over the last two years. Or maybe when the far left has no argument and no facts on its side, it just turns to reflexive, knee-jerk gainsaying out of spite. Where normal people might be forced to come to terms with their failure and the wrongness of their ideas, you dig in your heels even harder, and become more hateful and embittered, despite the fact that what you stand for has been fully, and finally, defeated and discredited, many times over.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

The only way you can possibly believe that is if you have somehow completely shut yourself off from any source of information that isn't from the outer fringes of the far left, or you're actively lying to yourself about what's happened over the last two years. Or maybe when the far left has no argument and no facts on its side, it just turns to reflexive, knee-jerk gainsaying out of spite. Where normal people might be forced to come to terms with their failure and the wrongness of their ideas, you dig in your heels even harder, and become more hateful and embittered, despite the fact that what you stand for has been fully, and finally, defeated and discredited, many times over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection