I can't tell you what part of America is closest to a microcosm of America. Tell me where you might see a skyscraper (no, not a grain elevator) juxtaposed with a dairy farm. Tell me where you might see Miami's Art Deco next to New England's salt boxes. Tell me where you might find a synagogue next to a lumber camp.

Missouri is the closest America has to a microcosm of itself. The mx of rural and urban is about the same proportion as America. It is the populace center of the United States. It borders Northern and Southern States and during the 20th century Missouri as a state voted for the president who won until 2008 where we very narrowly picked John McCain. Missouri was the last to turn in results because it was so close. I just read an article about St. Louis being the most dangerous city in America. We Missouians have a little bit of everything. A good mix of rural, urban; north, south; east and west. Plus we have the most wellknown nickname for a state to boot.

In case you were wondering I am basically quoting an article I read before the 2008 elections so this isn't just my opinion.

Originally Posted by pizal81

Missouri is the closest America has to a microcosm of itself. The mx of rural and urban is about the same proportion as America. It is the populace center of the United States. It borders Northern and Southern States and during the 20th century Missouri as a state voted for the president who won until 2008 where we very narrowly picked John McCain. Missouri was the last to turn in results because it was so close. I just read an article about St. Louis being the most dangerous city in America. We Missouians have a little bit of everything. A good mix of rural, urban; north, south; east and west. Plus we have the most wellknown nickname for a state to boot.

In case you were wondering I am basically quoting an article I read before the 2008 elections so this isn't just my opinion.

Florida is this way too, but north and south are reversed. North Florida is an extension of the south. South Florida is an extension of the north. The middle part of the state is like the Midwest.

James50

Originally Posted by James50

Florida is this way too, but north and south are reversed. North Florida is an extension of the south. South Florida is an extension of the north. The middle part of the state is like the Midwest.

James50

"In Florida, as you drive north... you drive SOUTH!"

I often claim that Northern Virginia feels far more like New Jersey than Georgia. What it actually feels most like is... Ohio.

Originally Posted by James50

Florida is this way too, but north and south are reversed. North Florida is an extension of the south. South Florida is an extension of the north. The middle part of the state is like the Midwest.

James50

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Here is the wikipedia link. If anyone is interested just type in Missouri bellwether on google and a bunch of stuff pops up.

Originally Posted by annla899

People who live in Milwaukee love it. It's incredibly livable. And weather is just weather. Some people can't handle it. And it's really not a cultural wasteland, but people on the coasts like to think so, because the culture here is intimate. Small live theater in store fronts and topnotch symphonies. Chicago and Milwaukee are working class kinds of cities, which means stuff gets done without big fanfare. Thus people who don't live here don't know what's going on. We don't get a lot of cool press. We're the overweight guy in a bad suit who makes stuff. When people from here move to New York and LA, they are astonished at how much bs there is and at how little actually gets done. A lot of talk and little action is the general impression from us midwestern city people who move to the coasts--and probably from the non-city types, too.

What she said. I live between Milwaukee and Chicago, and I don't have to go very far in any direction to find cultural opportunities.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

If by "bad" you mean "true".

No sorry JPT, I am not Michael Jackson, and I don't do moonwalking.

Otherwise, my post stands as written.

Your loss dude

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Maybe it's because Chicago is a nasty place in the winter. . People in Chicago want to leave it often enough and far away enough to go somewhere else.

Dunno. Chicago and Petersburg have almost identical weather. Just that Chicago doesn't get particularly dark wintertime or light in the summer. And that's not considered nasty weather. Perhaps a bit on the harsh side sometimes, but not really all that bad, considering. I don't think weather is the key.

Originally Posted by Odin

I have to agree with you, here. Eric's remark elsewhere that he has no interest visiting with people from "fly-over" states is telling

And I stand by it, given the results of the election.
I would have liked to make the trip, but to think who lives there, now I don't want to.

(and indeed I don't have to anyway; see my next post)

There's plenty of great places to go and people to meet all up and down the West Coast.

And if the above is offensive hyperbole to anyone, well sorry.

Originally Posted by James50

Having gone back and forth to CA for most of my life, I only laugh when Californians engage in this sort of puffery. The truth is that California is the most provincial place in the country. They are the least likely to vacation outside the state. It is near impossible for someone outside California to do business within California. For most Californians, the world ends at Reno and its flyover country until you get to NY. It is a beautiful place but the Sierras, the Great Basin, and the 3 hour time difference from the other main population centers serve as strong isolation mechanisms from the rest of the country - indeed the rest of the world.

I am an optimist about California, but gave up long ago thinking it would ever truly join the rest of the country. It is its own world.

James50

Well, interesting, since we have most of the rest of the world here. I can't go out anywhere or do anything here without interacting with people from all around the world AND the USA. It is the flyover country that is provincial-- these days very much so.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

And I stand by it, given the results of the election.
I would have liked to make the trip, but to think who lives there, now I don't want to.

Sorry, but that is a very ignorant attitude, and it it exactly such bigoted attitudes that drive those folks into the hands of the Right. I grew up around "those people" you so hate and most are good, decent people. You can disagree with people without thinking they are scum. This Manichean attitude is vicious and destructive to the social bonds needed in this 4T.

Originally Posted by Odin

Sorry, but that is a very ignorant attitude, and it it exactly such bigoted attitudes that drive those folks into the hands of the Right. I grew up around "those people" you so hate and most are good, decent people. You can disagree with people without thinking they are scum. This Manichean attitude is vicious and destructive to the social bonds needed in this 4T.

I didn't say they are scum. I just don't want to see them.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Well, interesting, since we have most of the rest of the world here. I can't go out anywhere or do anything here without interacting with people from all around the world AND the USA.

Lol. Just like a New Yorker. "I don't need to go anywhere; there's all the cultures of the world just outside my door..." As if being next-door to a taco shop and a sushi bar means being multicultural...

All you have right near you is more California. Thank goodness, that's nowhere near even a significant minority of the 'rest of the world'.

Here's a hint: People who truly think that they experience any significant portion of the world right in their own homes are the very definition of provincial. Genuine cosmopolitans appreciate that all local cultures are just that... local. To experience other cultures, you have no choice but to experience other locales. People in some parts of flyover country might be the lesser form of provincial -- being aware of, but disinterested in, the rest of the world. But at least they're not delusional-provincial like you guys are.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Lol. Just like a New Yorker. "I don't need to go anywhere; there's all the cultures of the world just outside my door..." As if being next-door to a taco shop and a sushi bar means being multicultural...

All you have right near you is more California. Thank goodness, that's nowhere near even a significant minority of the 'rest of the world'.

Here's a hint: People who truly think that they experience any significant portion of the world right in their own homes are the very definition of provincial. Genuine cosmopolitans appreciate that all local cultures are just that... local. To experience other cultures, you have no choice but to experience other locales. People in some parts of flyover country might be the lesser form of provincial -- being aware of, but disinterested in, the rest of the world. But at least they're not delusional-provincial like you guys are.

No, I'm just saying CA is not provincial. Lots of Californians go places.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

No, I'm just saying CA is not provincial.

I know you are saying that. You are wrong.

"Going places" or not isn't what makes a people or person provincial. Provincialism, like its counterpart, cosmopolitanism, is a matter of how people view themselves and their own local culture in the context of the world.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I didn't say they are scum. I just don't want to see them.

Aw, Eric, you're always welcome here in Wisconsin. I'd even take you to our local Fair Trade coffee shop some night when they're playing folk music. You'd feel right at home.

I have lived in several different states in many regions all over the country including, the midwest, the southwest, the west, the Pacific northwest and Alaska. I've never lived in the east but my dad did and I spent a lot of time in New Jersey as a teenager. This whole attitude of I'm better than you because of where I live is ridiculous. It's one thing to have pride in your state but another thing to truly think you are better than other people just because of where you live or happened to be raised. Talk about arrogant. It's like a beautiful women who goes around talking about how pretty she is. That would be a total turn off to most everyone who would cross her path.

Some places are worse than others as far people thinking they are some how superior to everyone else because of where they live. I have to tell you that the people in Pacific Northwest and Alaska are the worst I've come across. Although I've never lived in California I'm guessing from comments I've heard and the fact it is in the vicinity of the Pacific northwest the same attitude prevails.

The friendliest and most unassuming people I've met are in the midwest. Midwesterners don't care where you are from. They are open and welcoming to everyone. And believe it or not, these conservative minded folks in my Texas town have always made me feel right at home.

Here are a couple of examples of tea party supporters I've had dealings with in the last week. My husband got called to Canada a week before Thanksgiving. (He will be there until right before Christmas.) This meant that my kids and were going to alone on Thanksgiving. When an elderly couple I know heard this, they insisted we come to their house for Thanksgiving. We did and they went out of their way to make my kids and I feel welcome. Yesterday, one of hot water heaters in my house broke and started leaking all over the place. The "tea party" women next door called her husband, he left work and came over to my house to help me deal with shutting off the water heater and getting it drained. There are many other very kind people like these people I mentioned in my town. If I decided that I didn't want to be friends with them because of the way they voted I'd be lonely on the holidays and trying to deal with mechanical breakdowns by myself. I feel very blessed by the friendships I have. When you decide to write people off because they have different political opinions than you or where they are from, you may very be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Lol. Just like a New Yorker. "I don't need to go anywhere; there's all the cultures of the world just outside my door..." As if being next-door to a taco shop and a sushi bar means being multicultural...

All you have right near you is more California. Thank goodness, that's nowhere near even a significant minority of the 'rest of the world'.

Here's a hint: People who truly think that they experience any significant portion of the world right in their own homes are the very definition of provincial. Genuine cosmopolitans appreciate that all local cultures are just that... local. To experience other cultures, you have no choice but to experience other locales. People in some parts of flyover country might be the lesser form of provincial -- being aware of, but disinterested in, the rest of the world. But at least they're not delusional-provincial like you guys are.

Or even genuine ethnic stuff, not the Americanized crap (most of what passes as "Asian" food here isn't).

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Aw, Eric, you're always welcome here in Wisconsin. I'd even take you to our local Fair Trade coffee shop some night when they're playing folk music. You'd feel right at home.

Ditto with the Twin Cities.

Originally Posted by Odin

Sorry, but that is a very ignorant attitude, and it it exactly such bigoted attitudes that drive those folks into the hands of the Right. I grew up around "those people" you so hate and most are good, decent people. You can disagree with people without thinking they are scum. This Manichean attitude is vicious and destructive to the social bonds needed in this 4T.

Very well said. Frankly people with this kind of attitude are making their politics such a full contact life or death issue that I don't how they have time to enjoy life around all of that obsession with hating those who don't agree with you.

These things are important but when they become an all-consuming obsession that impacts your ability to just live your life and enjoy it, it hardly seems healthy. I have my preferences, but I prefer to think the sun will come up in the morning regardless of leadership and, while I will try to influence the outcomes, I won't allow them to control whether or not I can make it a good day. I refuse to let them have that much power and control over me.

Originally Posted by ASB65

Here are a couple of examples of tea party supporters I've had dealings with in the last week. My husband got called to Canada a week before Thanksgiving. (He will be there until right before Christmas.) This meant that my kids and were going to alone on Thanksgiving. When an elderly couple I know heard this, they insisted we come to their house for Thanksgiving. We did and they went out of their way to make my kids and I feel welcome. Yesterday, one of hot water heaters in my house broke and started leaking all over the place. The "tea party" women next door called her husband, he left work and came over to my house to help me deal with shutting off the water heater and getting it drained. There are many other very kind people like these people I mentioned in my town. If I decided that I didn't want to be friends with them because of the way they voted I'd be lonely on the holidays and trying to deal with mechanical breakdowns by myself. I feel very blessed by the friendships I have. When you decide to write people off because they have different political opinions than you or where they are from, you may very be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

That is exactly the point I made to Eric.

Originally Posted by ASB65

Some places are worse than others as far people thinking they are some how superior to everyone else because of where they live. I have to tell you that the people in Pacific Northwest and Alaska are the worst I've come across. Although I've never lived in California I'm guessing from comments I've heard and the fact it is in the vicinity of the Pacific northwest the same attitude prevails.

The friendliest and most unassuming people I've met are in the midwest. Midwesterners don't care where you are from. They are open and welcoming to everyone. And believe it or not, these conservative minded folks in my Texas town have always made me feel right at home.

I've lived all over the state of Missouri and one thing I think is fascinating is the different attitudes from town to town. After I graduated college I lived with my parents a year and saved up to study in China. My dad was preaching at a church there and my sister was a senior in high school. One day I had to go get color copies, but there was no where to make them in town so we had to go to the nearest town. Now where my parents lived the people seemed really cold like "You aren't one of us.", but after me and my sister went looking for a place to make the copies in the other town I said "Is it just me or are people nicer here." She said, "Yeah, that's weird." The towns were 15 miles apart, but I couldn't believe how different the attitudes were.
I will give the town where my dad preached some credit. The African American community there was really friendly.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Lol. Just like a New Yorker. "I don't need to go anywhere; there's all the cultures of the world just outside my door..." As if being next-door to a taco shop and a sushi bar means being multicultural...

All you have right near you is more California. Thank goodness, that's nowhere near even a significant minority of the 'rest of the world'.

Here's a hint: People who truly think that they experience any significant portion of the world right in their own homes are the very definition of provincial. Genuine cosmopolitans appreciate that all local cultures are just that... local. To experience other cultures, you have no choice but to experience other locales. People in some parts of flyover country might be the lesser form of provincial -- being aware of, but disinterested in, the rest of the world. But at least they're not delusional-provincial like you guys are.

What he said.

James50

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Here's a hint: People who truly think that they experience any significant portion of the world right in their own homes are the very definition of provincial. Genuine cosmopolitans appreciate that all local cultures are just that... local. To experience other cultures, you have no choice but to experience other locales. People in some parts of flyover country might be the lesser form of provincial -- being aware of, but disinterested in, the rest of the world. But at least they're not delusional-provincial like you guys are.

Agreed. There's a big difference between "I don't have a lot of interest in seeing the world and doing everything" and "I don't need to see the world because everything worth seeing and doing is right here." The so-called provincialism of flyover country is typically the former; the provincialism of places like New York and San Francisco is often the latter.

Originally Posted by pizal81

I've lived all over the state of Missouri and one thing I think is fascinating is the different attitudes from town to town. After I graduated college I lived with my parents a year and saved up to study in China. My dad was preaching at a church there and my sister was a senior in high school. One day I had to go get color copies, but there was no where to make them in town so we had to go to the nearest town. Now where my parents lived the people seemed really cold like "You aren't one of us.", but after me and my sister went looking for a place to make the copies in the other town I said "Is it just me or are people nicer here." She said, "Yeah, that's weird." The towns were 15 miles apart, but I couldn't believe how different the attitudes were.
I will give the town where my dad preached some credit. The African American community there was really friendly.

You may be right about that. The worst place I ever lived as far as mean people goes was Juneau, Alaska. Which BTW is probably one of the most liberal towns in the state because it's the capital and you have all those government workers there. (People who have government jobs tend to vote more Democratic.) These people were just jerks. They looked at me as an outsiders and made it a point to make me feel that way the entire 6 years that I lived there. And I would say to my husband, who grew up in a different small little town in Alaska, "What is wrong with these people?" He would say, "The people in my hometown aren't like that." And I have to say that when we go to his hometown to visit, the people there were generally much nicer to me. Needless to say, the day we left Alaska was one of the happiest days of my life. It ranks right up there with the days my kids were born. You couldn't pay me enough money to ever live there again. I'd sooner dig a hole in ground and live in it than ever live in Juneau, Alaska again.

And also Pizal, I did attend a church in that town while we lived there. Even the people who went to that church very seldom even spoke to me on Sunday mornings. And these were church people for crying out loud.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Aw, Eric, you're always welcome here in Wisconsin. I'd even take you to our local Fair Trade coffee shop some night when they're playing folk music. You'd feel right at home.

OK, maybe some day