Originally Posted by ASB65

I have lived in several different states in many regions all over the country including, the midwest, the southwest, the west, the Pacific northwest and Alaska. I've never lived in the east but my dad did and I spent a lot of time in New Jersey as a teenager. This whole attitude of I'm better than you because of where I live is ridiculous. It's one thing to have pride in your state but another thing to truly think you are better than other people just because of where you live or happened to be raised. Talk about arrogant. It's like a beautiful women who goes around talking about how pretty she is. That would be a total turn off to most everyone who would cross her path.

Some places are worse than others as far people thinking they are some how superior to everyone else because of where they live. I have to tell you that the people in Pacific Northwest and Alaska are the worst I've come across. Although I've never lived in California I'm guessing from comments I've heard and the fact it is in the vicinity of the Pacific northwest the same attitude prevails.

The friendliest and most unassuming people I've met are in the midwest. Midwesterners don't care where you are from. They are open and welcoming to everyone. And believe it or not, these conservative minded folks in my Texas town have always made me feel right at home.

Here are a couple of examples of tea party supporters I've had dealings with in the last week. My husband got called to Canada a week before Thanksgiving. (He will be there until right before Christmas.) This meant that my kids and were going to alone on Thanksgiving. When an elderly couple I know heard this, they insisted we come to their house for Thanksgiving. We did and they went out of their way to make my kids and I feel welcome. Yesterday, one of hot water heaters in my house broke and started leaking all over the place. The "tea party" women next door called her husband, he left work and came over to my house to help me deal with shutting off the water heater and getting it drained. There are many other very kind people like these people I mentioned in my town. If I decided that I didn't want to be friends with them because of the way they voted I'd be lonely on the holidays and trying to deal with mechanical breakdowns by myself. I feel very blessed by the friendships I have. When you decide to write people off because they have different political opinions than you or where they are from, you may very be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Funny to read. Living the majority of my life in the pacific northwest I always thought we were pretty easy going towards each other and people who came here with exception to one group...Californians. We dont like them much, never have. Considering what they have done to thier own state I really fear with such an influx of them here that is what will happen here soon too. Its ,in fact happening as we speak. I enjoyed my time in Arizona. It seemed everyone there was from somewhere else, including many from Washington and Oregon. I paln on returning there, hopefully soon. I enjoyed my one visit to the South but I would never live in that climate, same for most of the east coast and mid west. I might be pursuaded to live in New Hampshire. I love thier state motto, "live free or die"

California would be great if they had a sane government. Their draconian gun laws alone prevent me from ever consider living there. Thats before even looking at thier tax policies.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

I know you are saying that. You are wrong.

"Going places" or not isn't what makes a people or person provincial. Provincialism, like its counterpart, cosmopolitanism, is a matter of how people view themselves and their own local culture in the context of the world.

But if we have a view of the whole world, because it is here, we could not have a provincialism concerning those other cultures where they came from either. The people of CA are not mostly native Californians. Since they themselves are to a large extent from other cultures, and belong to other cultures around the world, and are from other US states too, they cannot be provincial. California IS the world.

"More California" just means more of the world. That is just the fact.

What CA has that most other states not near the coast don't, is contact between and exposure to these other cultures. That makes us cosmopolitan in the sense that we are aware of other cultures, and thus don't have as much of the attitudes that people in the flyover states show by their votes (which is why I am upset with them right now). The conservatism of the heartland states is partly due to the fact that they don't have this contact. People are used to their own culture, which does not change; and this often means the religious right. "Blue states" stand for contact with water.

People who put down CA are just jealous.

But people in the coastal states are more also more alienated because there is more change and people move around, and come and go or move in and out quickly. CA is famous for the fact that you can't keep an address list for more than 2 years. That is one reason why people in the midwest are more "friendly;" they are used to building community, where people in CA (or NY probably) are less so.

However, I really noticed the difference between the Bay Area and much of the central valley and LA though when I go there. The Bay Area, though alienated in the sense of having less community, is friendlier and people are more helpful. Some of that is a legacy of the late sixties/seventies when it was known as "an intimate community." But that was a different kind of "community;" much more anonymous.

I like the Pacific Northwest, especially Seattle and Portland are great places with great values. My experience, such as it is, is not that of whoever complained about it. But again, that's the coast; inland in the "heartland," and that is different.

Originally Posted by Weave

California would be great if they had a sane government. Their draconian gun laws alone prevent me from ever consider living there. Thats before even looking at their tax policies.

We like those things You can stay there, and please keep your guns there.

Although our tax policy is rather conservative. There are more taxes on business, but they got a big break from Prop. 13 in 1978. But for the last 30 years or so, it's been almost impossible to raise any state taxes. Local authorities make up for it by raising property taxes with "parcel taxes" to pay for their local schools.

Now that Jerry Brown is back, our government just got a lot more sane. And we can pass a budget now!

Originally Posted by Odin

Sorry, but that is a very ignorant attitude, and it it exactly such bigoted attitudes that drive those folks into the hands of the Right. ...

If people vote for the Right on important economic, budget and foreign policy issues based on their resentment that Californians don't like them, or because they don't like us, or some such thing, that reflects poorly on their mentality, and their attitude is why we are in such a mess. People only hurt themselves and their own interests when they vote based on such emotional considerations that have nothing to do with issues or policies. They would gain a lot more respect from us if they voted sensibly, and in their own interests, instead of on the basis of such things as they hate Jane Fonda, or hate the Hollywood elite, or resent the attitudes of people from other places toward them.

Originally Posted by pizal81

I've lived all over the state of Missouri and one thing I think is fascinating is the different attitudes from town to town. After I graduated college I lived with my parents a year and saved up to study in China. My dad was preaching at a church there and my sister was a senior in high school. One day I had to go get color copies, but there was no where to make them in town so we had to go to the nearest town. Now where my parents lived the people seemed really cold like "You aren't one of us.", but after me and my sister went looking for a place to make the copies in the other town I said "Is it just me or are people nicer here." She said, "Yeah, that's weird." The towns were 15 miles apart, but I couldn't believe how different the attitudes were.
I will give the town where my dad preached some credit. The African American community there was really friendly.

Missouri is known for its various religions. It is amazing how their religious beliefs direct their attitudes towards 'new comers.' I also lived all over the state of Missouri and what you say is very true about what a difference a few miles can make in a welcoming attitude.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

If people vote for the Right on important economic, budget and foreign policy issues based on their resentment that Californians don't like them, or because they don't like us, or some such thing, that reflects poorly on their mentality, and their attitude is why we are in such a mess. People only hurt themselves and their own interests when they vote based on such emotional considerations that have nothing to do with issues or policies. They would gain a lot more respect from us if they voted sensibly, and in their own interests, instead of on the basis of such things as they hate Jane Fonda, or hate the Hollywood elite, or resent the attitudes of people from other places toward them.

Even in the most lopsided red state, there is 30-40% of the population that is voting the way you like. Not visiting a place because you don't like its politics is only reducing your own life.

James50

Eric:

As a fellow Californian, but one with the benefit of having lived elsewhere, I must say that you are mistaken and Justin is right on this one. California does have people FROM the world, but just the same California IS NOT the world, any more than America (which also draws people from all over) is the world. I know damned well you wouldn't say that America is the world, and the same logic applies to our state at least as much.

California has its own culture, and if it partakes of influences from all over, nonetheless it is us, not elsewhere. In fact, California isn't even one culture, it's several. There's the urban Bay Area, the urban LA area, rural Nor Cal, the Central Valley, rural So Cal, and Orange County, and that's not an exhaustive list.

California isn't even the same as the urban Pacific Northwest, which shares many characteristics with the urban Bay Area but is still different: slower-paced, more quirky, a little less urban and a little more nature-oriented. And of course, there's little similarity between California (any part of it) and the Deep South, or Texas, or Chicago, or even New York City. (Except that, as has been noted, NYC is even more insular than we are here.)

Californians could be cosmopolitan. We have all the makings. But in order to make that a reality instead of just a potential, we have to shed the attitude that you have expressed on this thread: that we are the world. We're not.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Eric:

California has its own culture, and if it partakes of influences from all over, nonetheless it is us, not elsewhere. In fact, California isn't even one culture, it's several. There's the urban Bay Area, the urban LA area, rural Nor Cal, the Central Valley, rural So Cal, and Orange County, and that's not an exhaustive list.

But that "own culture" cannot help but be very cosmopolitan, even if it has its uniqueness, because it is made up of everybody. That is not true of most states. I agree about different parts of CA, as I said.

Californians could be cosmopolitan. We have all the makings. But in order to make that a reality instead of just a potential..

There is no basis for saying whether this is reality, or potential. There is no basis for saying CA is provincial.

Given the political facts now, the fact is, CA needs to even more go its own way politically at least.

When I have the money to travel, I think I'll flyover Missouri and Wisconsin and Georgia, and go to France and Germany! Or maybe China.

Thanks Wonkette for the song (see below)

All this talk about Cali reminds me of this year's monster summer hit by Katy Perry.

I know a place
Where the grass is really greener
Warm, wet and wild
There must be something in the water
Sippin' gin and juice
Laying underneath the palm trees
(Undone)
The boys break their necks
Tryin' to creep a little sneak peek
(At us)

You could travel the world
But nothing comes close to the Golden Coast
Once you party with us
You'll be falling in love
(Oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh)

California gurls, we're unforgettable
Daisy dukes, bikinis on top
Sun-kissed skin, so hot, we'll melt your popsicle
(Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh)
(Oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh)

California gurls, we're undeniable
Fine, fresh, fierce, we got it on lock
West Coast represent, now put your hands up
(Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh)
(Oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh)

Sex on a beach
We don't mind sand in or stilettos
We freak, in my jeep
Snoop Doggy Dogg is on the stereo

You could travel the world
But nothing comes close to the Golden Coast
Once you party with us
You'll be falling in love
(Oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh)

California gurls, we're unforgettable
Daisy dukes, bikinis on top
Sun-kissed skin, so hot, we'll melt your popsicle
(Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh)
(Oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh)

California gurls, we're undeniable
Fine, fresh, fierce, we got it on lock
West Coast represent, now put your hands up
(Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh)
(Oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh)

[Snoop Dogg raps]
Tone tanned, fit and ready,
turn it up 'cause it's getting heavy!
Wild, wild west coast,
these are the girls I love the most!
I mean the ones,
I mean, like, she's the one,
kiss her, touch her, squeeze her buns!

The girl's a freak,
she drives a jeep and lives on the beach,
I'm okay, I won't play,
I love the bay, just like I love L. A.,
Venice Beach and Palm Springs,
summer time is everything!

Home boys hanging out,
all this ass hanging out!
Bikinis, tankinis, martinis, no weenies,
Just a king and a queen,
Katy, my lady, (Yeah)
You looking here baby (uh, huh)!
I'm all up on you,
'Cause you representing California (oh yeah)!

[Katy Perry]
California gurls, we're unforgettable
Daisy dukes, bikinis on top
Sun-kissed skin, so hot, we'll melt your popsicle
(Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh)
(Oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh)

California gurls, we're undeniable
Fine, fresh, fierce, we got it on lock
West Coast represent, now put your hands up
(Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh)
(Oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh)

Which is hilarious, Jenny. Because anyone who's ever been outside California knows that the chicks there are middling at best. Depending on taste, there's easily Brazil, Argentina, Australia, Russia... any number of other places.

(And btw, the "Golden Coast" is in Uruguay, Malaysia, Ghana, New Zealand, Switzerland, and any number of other places. Which anyone who 'traveled the world' would know. )

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

But that "own culture" cannot help but be very cosmopolitan, even if it has its uniqueness, because it is made up of everybody.

Wow. I think I'll let your fellow californian pick up this thread with you; it seems he has a better chance of breaking through. But I can't let that last one go by without saying at least something.

California is most emphatically not made up of "everybody". There's not a single Yunnan tobacco farmer there. Nor are there any Saami reindeer herders. Or Oaxacan small-town lawyers. Or Moldovan cardiologists-turned-bricklayers. and so on and so on. What you have is the very limited (relative to the entirety of human culture; of course your limited culture has within itself the same real depth that any large group of people has) groups of "Californians" and "people living among Californians".

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

But that "own culture" cannot help but be very cosmopolitan, even if it has its uniqueness, because it is made up of everybody. That is not true of most states. I agree about different parts of CA, as I said.

Eric, Justin already pointed out that there are many parts of the world that are not represented here. What's more, merely by the fact of geographical limitation, we cannot be as universal as you are suggesting. The fact remains that, with a little more humility, California has the potential to become truly cosmopolitan. At present, though, the attitude that you're expressing (and the one expressed by Ms. Perry in that song, which I love by the way but I can't help wincing at it) is a barrier. What makes a cosmopolitan culture is a combination of two things: having access to the world (which we have), and being open to the world (which we don't).

Probably the problem here is that you're confusing the kind of openness which would make for a true cosmopolitan culture with the American liberal politically-correct "openness" in terms of acceptance by race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, ethnic origin, etc. This is not the same thing! It's valuable for its own sake, but it makes for a liberal culture, not a cosmopolitan culture. (A cosmopolitan culture is always liberal, but not vice-versa.)

This kind of arrogant we-are-the-center-of-the-universe attitude is why California's potential cosmopolitanness remains unrealized, as does that of New York City, which has an identical arrogance.

There is no basis for saying CA is provincial.

The term "provincial" is a little misleading, granted. Try insular instead. Or self-absorbed. Consumed with collective navel-gazing. Obvlivious to the merits of locations outside our borders.

Given the political facts now, the fact is, CA needs to even more go its own way politically at least.

I agree, but that's a different subject altogether.

"Insular" can be a consequence of geography-one is unlikely to be cosmopolitan if one is isolated from other groups by sheer distance.

It is hard to know others well if you have little contact with them.

This is only anecdotal, but I have spent recent time in the Santa Clara and San Jose area. If language is an indication, I hear more different languages in the shopping centers and restaurants in the areas of Atlanta I frequent than I hear in the west bay.

James50

Originally Posted by Weave

Funny to read. Living the majority of my life in the pacific northwest I always thought we were pretty easy going towards each other and people who came here with exception to one group...Californians. We dont like them much, never have. Considering what they have done to thier own state I really fear with such an influx of them here that is what will happen here soon too. Its ,in fact happening as we speak. I enjoyed my time in Arizona. It seemed everyone there was from somewhere else, including many from Washington and Oregon. I paln on returning there, hopefully soon. I enjoyed my one visit to the South but I would never live in that climate, same for most of the east coast and mid west. I might be pursuaded to live in New Hampshire. I love thier state motto, "live free or die"

California would be great if they had a sane government. Their draconian gun laws alone prevent me from ever consider living there. Thats before even looking at thier tax policies.

Ok, well I will choose my words carefully in order to try and not offend any of my Pacific Northwestern friends. People in the Northwest are not unfriendly at all. I can honestly say that I never met anyone from there that I didn't like... (Well, with the exception of my mother-in-law, but her issues have nothing to do with where she is from. So that's a whole other story.)...I was thinking more about the fine line between having pride in your state and being a bit arrogant about it. There are people I've met from there who honestly believe that it's the only decent place to live and can be arrogant about the whole thing and kind insultive towards other places.

I was 21 when I lived there and that attitude was just kind of a strange concept to me. It was just something I'd never come across before. Everyone has a soft spot for their homes. I understand that, but there are plenty of nice places to live. And granted some may be better than others. It would just never occurred to me to not like someone because they weren't from the same place I was or to think my town was better than someone else's. And yes, I did run across an attitude regarding Californians there. I guess, I've always just judged people by who they are and not categorized them by where they live. I think there are good and decent people every where and every place has it's share of jerks too.

But like I said in another post, the majority of the people from Juneau, Alaska were the worst of all the places I've lived. The people in the Pacific Northwest make those people from that town look like the welcome wagon lady (probably even to Californians).

I also lived in Arizona and Colorado (mid 1980's). At the time that I lived there you would have been hard pressed to find other people who were actually born there. Since everyone seemed to be from some place else there was no such thing as an outsider and people were friendly to each other since most people didn't have family around or established friendships.

I do think the people in the midwest are for most part pretty friendly. Although they can also be clanish at times too. Especially in smaller towns were they are surrounded by family and friends they have had since childhood. It's not that they are mean, but they really don't have need to make new friends. Of course, it might be like that in most all small towns regardless of the area of country they are in.

But even though I was raised in the midwest and feel comfortable there, it's not my first choice of places to live. I'd rather live in a more southern region of the country because I don't do cold weather very well. But that's just my personal preference.

There probably aren't too many places I wouldn't at least consider living at in this country. Juneau, Alaska is about the only place I'd rather not go back to. Been there. Done that. Not interested in doing it again.

Originally Posted by ASB65

There are people I've met from there who honestly believe that it's the only decent place to live and can be arrogant about the whole thing and kind insultive towards other places.

In our defense, Amy, it's hard to be humble when you are lucky enough to live in paradise.

Though, to be fair, there are other places in the world that are just as good as the Pac NW. Just not in the continental US.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

In our defense, Amy, it's hard to be humble when you are lucky enough to live in paradise.

Though, to be fair, there are other places in the world that are just as good as the Pac NW. Just not in the continental US.

Provincialism is different from pride and snobbery although they are related. My mother grew up in Seattle, and I have close connections with my first cousins in Seattle. I spent a good bit of time there as a child and teenager, and the cousins have been frequent visitors to Atlanta. I actually think of Seattle as my second home.

If California is the most isolated and provincial, the PNW is the most prideful. It is a running joke with my siblings when we discuss our much loved cousins.

James50

Originally Posted by James50

This is only anecdotal, but I have spent recent time in the Santa Clara and San Jose area. If language is an indication, I hear more different languages in the shopping centers and restaurants in the areas of Atlanta I frequent than I hear in the west bay.

James50

here in Fargo I have heard:

Spanish
Russian (neighbor)
Serbo-Croatian
Vietnamese
Hmong
Somali
Dinka (a friend of mine who is from southern Sudan)
Chinese
Japanese
Kurdish
Hindi/Urdu (neighbor)
Arabic

Originally Posted by Justin '77

In our defense, Amy, it's hard to be humble when you are lucky enough to live in paradise.

Though, to be fair, there are other places in the world that are just as good as the Pac NW. Just not in the continental US.

Paradise??? Paradise??? Sorry but my idea of Paradise is hardly 300 days of clouds and/or rain. To be fair, there is nothing like Seattle in July and August. Great scenery, sparkling blue waters, comfortable temps...but throw away the rest. Gloomy, dark, cloudy.....2 things keep me in WA. The lack of income tax and libertarian gun laws with things such as right to carry.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

One thing to remember that many people who otherwise notice this demographic in favor of Democrats don't seem to grok, is that this is not an age phenomenon but a generational one. Millennials will not stay young forever, and so "the youth votes Democratic" will change over time to "people in their 20s and 30s vote Democratic" and later still to "middle-aged people vote Democratic" and ultimately to "old farts vote Democratic." As Millies move up the age ladder, their party preference is unlikely to change, but they will vote more often, as older people always do.

I'm not too sure about that one. 5 years ago me and other friends my age had political views pretty far to the left of the ones we have now.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

In our defense, Amy, it's hard to be humble when you are lucky enough to live in paradise.

Though, to be fair, there are other places in the world that are just as good as the Pac NW. Just not in the continental US.

If I could afford to live anywhere. I think I would chose some place like Key West, Florida as my first choice. I'm a huge fan of the ocean and hot weather. I would like to live some place where there are sandy beaches and it stays warm and sunny all year round. Another place that might be on my list would be Savannah, Georgia. Again you have ocean and warm weather. I also like the the cool old architecture of the older homes and buildings in that town.

Now if I were looking for a mountain region, I would probably pick the Smokey Mountain regions. Places in Virginia, Tennessee, and the West Virginia absolutely take my breath away, and every time I've been there it just seems to have a homey feel to it. Again there are quaint little older towns with pretty old homes in these areas.

So it's just a matter of personal preference and what a person is attracted to and looking for. The politics of the place have very little bearing on my opinion. If that mattered to me, I'd go crazy in Texas.

So I do think there are plenty of really nice places in the US to live. One person's paradise may not be anothers.

Originally Posted by Weave

Paradise??? Paradise??? Sorry but my idea of Paradise is hardly 300 days of clouds and/or rain.

Now be reasonable. There aren't ever more than 290 days of overcast skies, tops, in a year.

And it's green cuz it's wet. If you've got a problem with the wet, go live in Phoenix or LA.

Seriously,though, every place has stuff to recommend it. I'm not a big fan of hot, but I've got to say that northern Queensland is pretty damn glorious, and my woodstock-roots started to sing the moment I got out of my car and heard the crickets and katydids in the crazy-wild kudzu-woods outside Duluth this last September. And then there's the other Stone Mountain (каменная горка to the locals, but it means the same thing) I found out in Demyansk region, Novgorod oblast'. Old, old mountains; lakes and lazy rivers tucked away among the forest and the mist. The stone forest (石林 [shilin]) in Yunnan away to the south of Kunming; along with the steep gullies cutting through mountain after mountain (interspersed with huge tobacco fields coming out of red, red earth -- another twinge-of-the-soul for a southern-born). South Island NZ -- pretty much anywhere there.

The world is full of great places.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Which is hilarious, Jenny. Because anyone who's ever been outside California knows that the chicks there are middling at best. Depending on taste, there's easily Brazil, Argentina, Australia, Russia... any number of other places.

(And btw, the "Golden Coast" is in Uruguay, Malaysia, Ghana, New Zealand, Switzerland, and any number of other places. Which anyone who 'traveled the world' would know. )

Swiss girls... they're nice.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Now be reasonable. There aren't ever more than 290 days of overcast skies, tops, in a year.

And it's green cuz it's wet.

290 days of rain and cool weather... hmm sounds like I'm built for that place, because I hate the hot and dry weather. My body can't handle it--I sweat too much. I like my house to be a bit chilly--and I don't mind the dark months of the year at all. But then again, my body's normal temperature is lower than average...

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

But then again, my body's normal temperature is lower than average...

Weird. I run a bit to the cool side, too. Wonder if that's related at all...

And anyway, one thing about weather in the PacNW. Yeah, sure. We get lots of days when it rains and is overcast. Just that it is rarely so all day long for more than one or two in a row. A normal day out here can see solid-grey overcast morning, sunshine around spotty small cumulus by lunchtime, practically cloudless by the afternoon (depending on the day, often with a bonus five-minute hailstorm from out of no-clouds-to-be-seen), a downpour of rain with high winds around dinnertime, and then clear starry skies by 10PM. Drizzle coming in around midnight. Plus there's fog that sometimes comes through quickly, sometimes lingers half a day. Our temperature-range doesn't move very much, but the types of weather we get are all over the map, and don't generally linger. So if you like ten straight hours of cloudless sunshine, this isn't the place. But don't go thinking that because it rains at least a little bit almost every day, we only ever have rain.

I even have empirical proof of a sort. I hot-tar-roofed for several years in the PDX area; it's the kind of work where, when it rains more than a light, brief sprinkle, we can't do our thing. And I worked more days than I didn't. So there's that.