Originally Posted by Odin

here in Fargo I have heard:

Spanish
Russian (neighbor)
Serbo-Croatian
Vietnamese
Hmong
Somali
Dinka (a friend of mine who is from southern Sudan)
Chinese
Japanese
Kurdish
Hindi/Urdu (neighbor)
Arabic

Yep. I can believe it. Immigration is mostly a wonderful thing in general, and it is not only California that benefits.

James50

Originally Posted by Chas'88

290 days of rain and cool weather... hmm sounds like I'm built for that place, because I hate the hot and dry weather. My body can't handle it--I sweat too much. I like my house to be a bit chilly--and I don't mind the dark months of the year at all. But then again, my body's normal temperature is lower than average...

~Chas'88

(We are getting further and further off topic. I expect David Kaiser to step in any minute and slap all our hands. )

But as for me, I suffer from SAD. My light box comes out in the middle of November every year. I am glad (literally) the solution is relatively easy.

If I had to go through a winter in Seattle or Boston, I am sure I would end up blowing my brains out. Dark, dark, dark is the same for me as dead,dead,dead. You folks in Minnesota or where ever are welcome to it. I love to visit, but only in the summer. It is glorious then.

James50

Originally Posted by Chas'88

290 days of rain and cool weather... hmm sounds like I'm built for that place, because I hate the hot and dry weather. My body can't handle it--I sweat too much. I like my house to be a bit chilly--and I don't mind the dark months of the year at all. But then again, my body's normal temperature is lower than average...

~Chas'88

And I'm just the opposite. First of all, I suffer from seasonal affective disorder and a vitamin D deficiency. Which might have been another reason why Alaska and I didn't get along too well. And after 2 straight days of cloudy skies, I start to see a real mood change in myself. The desert would be a good place for me. I get cold when it drops below 65 degrees to the point that my fingers and toes go numb from the cold. Yeah I know, I'm weird. My husband is always saying, "How can you possibly be cold?" But then I've never tipped past 115 pounds my entire life with the exception of when I was pregnant. So I guess I just don't have enough meat on my bones.

I do think the coastline of the Oregon is beautiful and I like the culture of the place, but it really wasn't warm enough for me and I had a very hard time with cloudy days and rainy drizzle.

I could go the rest of my life without ever seeing another snowflake again and I would be just fine with that. Give me hot, dry sunny days and I'm as happy as can be.

Originally Posted by James50

But as for me, I suffer from SAD. My light box comes out in the middle of November every year. I am glad (literally) the solution is relatively easy.

If I had to go through a winter in Seattle or Boston, I am sure I would end up blowing my brains out. Dark, dark, dark is the same for me as dead,dead,dead. You folks in Minnesota or where ever are welcome to it. I love to visit, but only in the summer. It is glorious then.

Bah. It doesn't get dark in Washington. Garret asked me all last year when winter was going to start, the length of the days changes so little from what he had gotten used to.

Now in Peter.... the hardware stores do very good business in selling 'like-daylight' fluorescents during the fall and winter. The first year we were there, before we knew enough to take basic measures, Andi had a hard time. (To be fair, being pregnant and half a world away from anyone she knew or could even easily talk to probably contributed, for someone who had never lived more than 100 miles from the hospital where she was born).

I never minded the dark. I'd like to think it's associated with my having worked nights while I was in school -- either I learned it there, or my existing predisposition made the arrangement work. What got to me in the north was the light. I've got no problem sleeping in full light (another result of my college days, I'm certain), but I start to get a little hallucinatey if I go more than a couple weeks without natural dark. Worse -- I couldn't find a 'lightbox' equivalent to help with that. Shutting myself up in my bathroom with the lights off just didn't cut it. Fortunately, Peter isn't way north -- not even above the Circle. So I only really had to tolerate 4-5 weeks of constant light before I could get some dark by staying up till 1AM.

Really, one of the things you learn in experiencing other places and things is just how wide the scope is of environments and conditions in which people can and do get along just fine. We're a hell of an adaptable critter.

I cannot handle cold weather I would die. It has been in the 50's in Phoenix and it is terrible.

I think I am doomed to live within 30 degrees of the equator at all times. And for all you arctic dwellers, just consider that all civilization began in semi-arid Climates, and that in our natural state Humans are meant for a tropical environment. BAh! seasons who needs them

Originally Posted by Debol1990

I cannot handle cold weather I would die. It has been in the 50's in Phoenix and it is terrible.

I remember living in Chandler. The lunatics down there start putting on winter coats when it hits 70 .

And for all you arctic dwellers, just consider that all civilization began in semi-arid Climates, and that in our natural state Humans are meant for a tropical environment.

That's hardly true. Civilization first developed around arable land. The sort of stuff in short supply out Phoenix way, I might add...

But technology and science are products of people adapting to climates that don't coddle them. Were it not for the adversity of nature, homo sap's intellectual development may as well have stalled out right around where pan and pongo have.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Bah. It doesn't get dark in Washington. Garret asked me all last year when winter was going to start, the length of the days changes so little from what he had gotten used to.

Now in Peter.... the hardware stores do very good business in selling 'like-daylight' fluorescents during the fall and winter.

Wait until you get older. My SAD did not really hit me until my 50s. Not saying you will get it, but just be aware. If things start to feel hopeless and negative long about the first of December, get some light from somewhere or move further south.

I have a friend who is a professor at a state university who spent a year in Norway with his wife. We visited them in Bergen the third week of June. It was gorgeous (like Seattle) and hardly got dark at all. There is a university in Tromso, Norway which is above the Arctic Circle. He told me that professors at that university are required to take 2 weeks off in mid winter to go to southern Europe or north Africa to get some light.

Most dramatic SAD evidence for me was in 2008 when I went to Singapore which is right on the equator around the first week of November. I was in Singapore the day Obama was elected President. I flew home a few days later straight to Atlanta. The dramatic change in daylight duration and intensity just about overwhelmed me until I realized what was happening to me. Like most people, when my mood begins to go down, I can always think of things to feel bad about; but its the mood change which happens first. I start in with the light box about 6 AM for about 15 minutes while I eat breakfast and read the paper. Makes all the difference in the world for me.

James50

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

And of course, there's little similarity between California (any part of it) and the Deep South, or Texas, or Chicago, or even New York City. (Except that, as has been noted, NYC is even more insular than we are here.)

I disagree with several of those statements. I've done something several times over the last decade that I highly recommend for anyone who has the time and wherewithal to do it. I've driven across the country, from one side to the other and back. The only area I did not get to was the Pacific Northwest.

Every place is unique to some degree, and has its own mindset. But California stood out in my travels for the fact that people there literally seemed to inhabit some other world in their thinking. Every other place I went, from the Northeast to the Midwest to the South, while there were clearly idiosyncrasies, all felt like the same society. In California, it seemed like people were high on something...which is not to say they were on drugs, so much as they seemed to have that type of airheaded detachment that goes along with being stoned. It's like the people there actually think they live in Disneyworld, except it's an adult Disneyworld full of drugs, gangs, and porn.

The difference between the Bay Area, Los Angeles, and the areas south of Los Angeles (Orange County, San Diego) was clear, but the same sort of weird detachment from reality (as those of us in the rest of the country know it) was present everywhere. And that detachment seems to extend to the state being oblivious to how badly things are going there, and the reasons why. They seem to believe that they can go on forever ignoring the consequences of their social and political culture. Although I suspect there is also a degree to which no one much cares or feels responsible for what happens because the state is so huge. I actually think it could benefit greatly from splitting into two states, north and south, just to get the issues down to something more manageable.

As for New York City, I disagree completely about it being more insular. It is a much tougher, much more clear-headed place than anywhere in CA, and has much more traffic and interaction with other parts of the country and the world. It is also way more left leaning than Los Angeles, although not more than San Francisco. The left has prospered in New York because it is a place full of anger, malice and urban blight that holds its self-appointed intellectual superiority as an article of faith. The left has prospered in California because the people there are dumb enough to believe its ideas can actually work. The leftism of a drug-addled hippie or Hollywood hedonist is a very different thing from the leftism of street gangs and union/mafia thugs with 2x4's. Although the latter is increasingly starting to evidence itself in California as well.

As for similarities between California and other parts of the country, it depends on which part of California you're talking about. Southern California has a fair amount in common with Texas and Colorado, and other areas in between. I suspect Northern California has a fair amount in common with the Pacific Northwest. But like I said, there is something in the water in California that makes people think they exist on some other plane of reality where normal rules don't apply.

Originally Posted by Debol1990

I cannot handle cold weather I would die. It has been in the 50's in Phoenix and it is terrible.

I think I am doomed to live within 30 degrees of the equator at all times. And for all you arctic dwellers, just consider that all civilization began in semi-arid Climates, and that in our natural state Humans are meant for a tropical environment. BAh! seasons who needs them

Nonsense. Come on up here to the arctic wastelands of Maine. My brother and I find nothing more fun than some winter camping in the brisk below 0 air and deep snow. What could be better than a few miles of hiking in snow, building a shelter, building a fire and busting ass around camp just to stay warm? If you want you can even shoot dinner (or eat Ramen noodles).

Actually that's a lie. Winter camping sucks, but we do it because we are crazy.

JPT- detachment and feeling relaxed is a good thing, regardless of how "tough" things may be. That is a compliment and maybe others could learn.

I think it was David Brooks who remarked that when he crossed into CA, he noticed far less of the anti-government anger abroad in the land nowadays. That is to our credit. Most of the rest of America is deluded, not us. But JPT, you of course see things from the opposite perspective.

And that detachment seems to extend to the state being oblivious to how badly things are going there, and the reasons why. They seem to believe that they can go on forever ignoring the consequences of their social and political culture.

The only things wrong with CA are the extent to which we have embraced your philosophy, JPT; which has infected the whole country including CA. Don't forget, your hero came from CA; and just as nationally, his legacy is what's wrong with CA too.

Not entirely, I hasten to add; we do have hungry bureaucrats, I guess, and generous welfare. But mostly, it's trickle-down, anti-tax mania that has caused California's problems. Not the least of which was the 2/3 requirement to pass a budget. 55% of us finally beat off the anti-tax trickle-down propaganda and joined the rest of America in our budget process. Even so, it still takes 2/3 to pass any taxes. That still wasn't conservative enough for 45% of CA voters. Real liberal, huh? Oh yeah, and we just ADDED a 2/3 requirement to pass any "fees." Once again, the legacy of your hero, JPT.

Although I do agree, splitting the state might be good. But then, I also think that about the nation.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Wow. I think I'll let your fellow californian pick up this thread with you; it seems he has a better chance of breaking through. But I can't let that last one go by without saying at least something.

California is most emphatically not made up of "everybody". There's not a single Yunnan tobacco farmer there. Nor are there any Saami reindeer herders. Or Oaxacan small-town lawyers. Or Moldovan cardiologists-turned-bricklayers. and so on and so on.

Your exaggeration makes my point.

We can always depend on Brian to "pick up a thread" whatever it is. But this adds to the conversation on the site, so we like it.

What you have is the very limited (relative to the entirety of human culture; of course your limited culture has within itself the same real depth that any large group of people has) groups of "Californians" and "people living among Californians".

I don't feel the need to resort to stats. Any educated person knows that CA is more ethnically diverse than any other state, and this is especially true where I live and in other cities.

I suspect nothing really can be said about California at all. It is too big, too fluid, too diverse; more so in all these respects than any other state by far.

Perhaps the climate gives it certain traits; beyond that, nothing much can be said. Even if there are somewhat more liberal or airheady types here, of various and diverse kinds, there are probably (given our population) more conservatives, or whatever else have you, here in CA than anywhere else in the country.

I noticed something distinct about California the last time I travelled to Oregon. I never believed in the reality of borders much; they are lines on a map. Until I crossed the CA/Oregon border. Oregon is beautiful, it has a slower pace, and good cities. But what you see driving through Oregon, is trees. And then, more trees. And then, some places where trees were cut down. And then, more trees. And, more trees. Maybe a mountain here and there, up north at least. All in all, not bad at all. But cross into CA, the scenery changes every few miles or so. Trees, deserts, rocks, hills, mountains, valleys, many different kinds of vegetation and farms. Many different kinds of towns and cities. The highest point in the lower 48, the lowest point in the hemisphere. What California is, is VARIETY. Climactically as well as culturally, we have just about everything here, in one part of the state or another, or even within one Metro area like the Bay Area. CA is livelier too, though this may be waning a bit these days.

I wonder if people can feel the change when they cross the borders between other states.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

This kind of arrogant we-are-the-center-of-the-universe attitude is why California's potential cosmopolitanness remains unrealized, as does that of New York City, which has an identical arrogance.

There is no way we can avoid being cosmopolitan, however much some people in CA think CA is the center of the universe. Of course, like the song said, "if you leave NY, you ain't gone nowhere." There is a certain truth in the feeling that these two states have more and better than others. Those who have a problem with that attitude, are just jealous. If it's true, there's nothing wrong with knowing it, and appreciating it. Nor does it really block appreciation of other places. California must have more travel agencies than anywhere, and we love to watch our travel shows. I must add here: in my line of work I have walked all over Silicon Valley and neighboring areas, to shopping areas everywhere, so I know whereof I speak when I say there are LOTS of travel agencies. And legions and legions of stores run by non-whites of every description too (though the travel businesses are more white). They must be doing good business; market discipline applies.

The term "provincial" is a little misleading, granted. Try insular instead. Or self-absorbed. Consumed with collective navel-gazing. Oblivious to the merits of locations outside our borders.

I just don't think there's any way anyone can say that. Based on what evidence? Absurd claims that we don't travel? We are more open than other places, because we see more. So I and others in CA have a strong appreciation of other places, even in America.

I said "Given the political facts now, the fact is, CA needs to even more go its own way politically at least."
I agree, but that's a different subject altogether.

Not quite; it's what brought this subject up. My only real problem with the flyover states is how they vote. It is no small matter to me; and if it's not to others, that's fine with me.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Your exaggeration makes my point.

We can always depend on Brian to "pick up a thread" whatever it is. But this adds to the conversation on the site, so we like it.

I don't feel the need to resort to stats. Any educated person knows that CA is more ethnically diverse than any other state, and this is especially true where I live and in other cities.

I suspect nothing really can be said about California at all. It is too big, too fluid, too diverse; more so in all these respects than any other state by far.

Perhaps the climate gives it certain traits; beyond that, nothing much can be said. Even if there are somewhat more liberal or airheady types here, of various and diverse kinds, there are probably (given our population) more conservatives, or whatever else have you, here in CA than anywhere else in the country.

I noticed something distinct about California the last time I travelled to Oregon. I never believed in the reality of borders much; they are lines on a map. Until I crossed the CA/Oregon border. Oregon is beautiful, it has a slower pace, and good cities. But what you see driving through Oregon, is trees. And then, more trees. And then, some places where trees were cut down. And then, more trees. And, more trees. Maybe a mountain here and there, up north at least. All in all, not bad at all. But cross into CA, the scenery changes every few miles or so. Trees, deserts, rocks, hills, mountains, valleys, many different kinds of vegetation and farms. Many different kinds of towns and cities. The highest point in the lower 48, the lowest point in the hemisphere. What California is, is VARIETY. Climactically as well as culturally, we have just about everything here, in one part of the state or another, or even within one Metro area like the Bay Area. CA is livelier too, though this may be waning a bit these days.

I wonder if people can feel the change when they cross the borders between other states.

God yes. Once when I was driving down to Delaware and decided to be more exploratory I took a route that had me cut through the northeastern corner of Maryland. The difference between Pennsylvania and Maryland was distinct at the Mason-Dixon line. Delaware isn't too different--besides driving habits (one has to be a very aggressive driver in Delaware). New Jersey felt different, as does New York. I once drove accross the border between South Carolina and Georgia--there was a blizzard in South Carolina, but it was sunny and almost spring-like the minute we crossed into Georgia.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I wonder if people can feel the change when they cross the borders between other states.

I've driven the route between Texas and Illinois several times now, and when I cross the border between Oklahoma and Missouri there is a distinct difference. Oklahoma is as flat as a pancake. When driving across Oklahoma you see lots of tiny, almost run down looking towns and not a lot of trees. Oklahoma seems very poor and desolate to me. There isn't even any rest stops along side the highways. As soon as you cross by Joplin, Missouri, which is close to the Ozarks, you start to get into beautiful rolling hills with lots of evergreen trees. It really is quite beautiful scenery. The towns feel a bit more urban and newer with chain stores, restaurants and hotels.

Originally Posted by James50

Wait until you get older. My SAD did not really hit me until my 50s. Not saying you will get it, but just be aware. If things start to feel hopeless and negative long about the first of December, get some light from somewhere or move further south.

I have a friend who is a professor at a state university who spent a year in Norway with his wife. We visited them in Bergen the third week of June. It was gorgeous (like Seattle) and hardly got dark at all. There is a university in Tromso, Norway which is above the Arctic Circle. He told me that professors at that university are required to take 2 weeks off in mid winter to go to southern Europe or north Africa to get some light.

Most dramatic SAD evidence for me was in 2008 when I went to Singapore which is right on the equator around the first week of November. I was in Singapore the day Obama was elected President. I flew home a few days later straight to Atlanta. The dramatic change in daylight duration and intensity just about overwhelmed me until I realized what was happening to me. Like most people, when my mood begins to go down, I can always think of things to feel bad about; but its the mood change which happens first. I start in with the light box about 6 AM for about 15 minutes while I eat breakfast and read the paper. Makes all the difference in the world for me.

James50

New England is quite far north, of course, but it's also at the eastern edge of the time zone, and November through January are always tough for me, much as I love the place, because it's pitch dark by 4:30. (Some days I actually see the sunset from my office.) The most depressing day of the year for me by far is the day after Daylight Savings kicks in. Some day I might take a winter vacation in Argentina--no jet lag and it's summer down there. Of course, we have very long days starting in May, but it's not like Ohio, where the sun is up in the summer until 9:30 because they are on the west end of the zone.

Originally Posted by Debol1990

I cannot handle cold weather I would die. It has been in the 50's in Phoenix and it is terrible.

I think I am doomed to live within 30 degrees of the equator at all times. And for all you arctic dwellers, just consider that all civilization began in semi-arid Climates, and that in our natural state Humans are meant for a tropical environment. BAh! seasons who needs them

WIMP! It's -2F in Fargo right now!

Originally Posted by ASB65

I've driven the route between Texas and Illinois several times now, and when I cross the border between Oklahoma and Missouri there is a distinct difference. Oklahoma is as flat as a pancake. When driving across Oklahoma you see lots of tiny, almost run down looking towns and not a lot of trees. Oklahoma seems very poor and desolate to me. There isn't even any rest stops along side the highways. As soon as you cross by Joplin, Missouri, which is close to the Ozarks, you start to get into beautiful rolling hills with lots of evergreen trees. It really is quite beautiful scenery. The towns feel a bit more urban and newer with chain stores, restaurants and hotels.

"Joplin is the bit of Oklahoma that floated to the top of the tank."

Originally Posted by Poodle

"Joplin is the bit of Oklahoma that floated to the top of the tank."

Joplin seems like New York City in comparison to the towns in Oklahoma. I've never actually spent in any time there though other than to fill up the tank and get the kids something to eat. By the time I reach Joplin the tank is close to empty and the kids are getting restless and are starving. At least there are restaurants and gas stations and there. We have over nighted in Springfield, Missouri (Our half way point) more than once. That town seems really cosmopolitan compared to Oklahoma. They have lots of nice hotels, restaurants and a huge mall with a shopping center close by it.

Originally Posted by ASB65

Joplin seems like New York City in comparison to the towns in Oklahoma. I've never actually spent in any time there though other than to fill up the tank and get the kids something to eat. By the time I reach Joplin the tank is close to empty and the kids are getting restless and are starving. At least there are restaurants and gas stations and there. We have over nighted in Springfield, Missouri (Our half way point) more than once. That town seems really cosmopolitan compared to Oklahoma. They have lots of nice hotels, restaurants and a huge mall with a shopping center close by it.

Welcome to the Seventh Congressional District of Missouri.

It's traditional in SGF to look down on JLN. I've lived and worked in both towns. Springfield is far the superior. Wacky as all hell, once you scratch below the surface, but superior. It has a twisted imperial mentality. Springfield has also seen much Asian immigration over the last twenty years, making it a much more cosmopolitan place than it once was. Hispanic populations have also increased, but mostly south, and west of SGF (Monett, Aurora).

In Joplin, the poverty is palpable. Starting a business requires connections. Then, there is the lead in the water...

Originally Posted by ASB65

I've driven the route between Texas and Illinois several times now, and when I cross the border between Oklahoma and Missouri there is a distinct difference. Oklahoma is as flat as a pancake. When driving across Oklahoma you see lots of tiny, almost run down looking towns and not a lot of trees. Oklahoma seems very poor and desolate to me. There isn't even any rest stops along side the highways. As soon as you cross by Joplin, Missouri, which is close to the Ozarks, you start to get into beautiful rolling hills with lots of evergreen trees. It really is quite beautiful scenery. The towns feel a bit more urban and newer with chain stores, restaurants and hotels.

Glad you think our State has beautiful scenery. It's also a bell weather state when it comes to elections. If I can project, unless the economy turns around in a big way, 2012 doesn't look good for Democrats.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Glad you think our State has beautiful scenery. It's also a bell weather state when it comes to elections. If I can project, unless the economy turns around in a big way, 2012 doesn't look good for Democrats.

Not so bellwether anymore, Deb. Look what happened to Ike Skelton, Ms Carnahan, et al. We went for McCain in 2008. Rural areas are gaining influence, as urban populations are dispirited.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Glad you think our State has beautiful scenery. It's also a bell weather state when it comes to elections. If I can project, unless the economy turns around in a big way, 2012 doesn't look good for Democrats.

I didn't know that you live in Missouri. I was quite familiar with the St. Louis area since I grew up only 3 hours away in the Peoria, Illinois area, but I had never really been any where west of St. Louis until I started making the drive between Texas and Illinois. I must admit the first time I drove through the south western part of the state I really surprised. I had no idea Missouri was so gorgeous. Who would have thought? I just always figured it must be flat like Illinois and Iowa. Anyway, I love that part of the drive. It's very scenic.

I can imagine politically that Missouri is much like Illinois. Democratic in the urban areas and Republican in the rural areas. Everyone thinks of Illinois as a blue state but it's really only Chicago that is heavily Democratic. The rest of the state does tend to lean more Republican. However the huge population in the Chicago area always trumps the Republican votes in the rest of the state.

Originally Posted by Poodle

Not so bellwether anymore, Deb. Look what happened to Ike Skelton, Ms Carnahan, et al. We went for McCain in 2008. Rural areas are gaining influence, as urban populations are dispirited.

bellwether is any entity in a given arena that serves to create or influence trends or to presage future happenings.

I guess when I say bellwether, I mean the predicting of elections. What happened to the Democrats in MO, coupled with the rural areas gaining influence, is pretty much a mirror of what happened country wide. Wouldn't you say?

Originally Posted by ASB65

I didn't know that you live in Missouri. I was quite familiar with the St. Louis area since I grew up only 3 hours away in the Peoria, Illinois area, but I had never really been any where west of St. Louis until I started making the drive between Texas and Illinois. I must admit the first time I drove through the south western part of the state I really surprised. I had no idea Missouri was so gorgeous. Who would have thought? I just always figured it must be flat like Illinois and Iowa. Anyway, I love that part of the drive. It's very scenic.

I can imagine politically that Missouri is much like Illinois. Democratic in the urban areas and Republican in the rural areas. Everyone thinks of Illinois as a blue state but it's really only Chicago that is heavily Democratic. The rest of the state does tend to lean more Republican. However the huge population in the Chicago area always trumps the Republican votes in the rest of the state.

Ditto for Washington state which is heavily Dummycrat in King County and few surrounding areas.....

[QUOTE=ASB65;343089]I didn't know that you live in Missouri. I was quite familiar with the St. Louis area since I grew up only 3 hours away in the Peoria, Illinois area, but I had never really been any where west of St. Louis until I started making the drive between Texas and Illinois. I must admit the first time I drove through the south western part of the state I really surprised. I had no idea Missouri was so gorgeous. Who would have thought? I just always figured it must be flat like Illinois and Iowa. Anyway, I love that part of the drive. It's very scenic.
QUOTE]

Next time your up this way, let's have coffee together. By the way, I look nothing like the 60s hippie that some here have me pictured as.