Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 28







Post#676 at 12-05-2010 10:44 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
12-05-2010, 10:44 PM #676
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
So what is the highly-publicized hate speech of the Left?
Keith Olbermann. Nuff said.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#677 at 12-06-2010 12:23 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
12-06-2010, 12:23 AM #677
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Keith Olbermann. Nuff said.

James50
Example please.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#678 at 12-06-2010 01:43 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
12-06-2010, 01:43 AM #678
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Keith Olbermann. Nuff said.

James50
I thought that you were going to mention the New Black Panther party or something like that.

Olbermann never calls for hatred of anyone. Contempt, maybe, but then of someone who eminently deserves it.

He doesn't cut much slack for liberal wrong-doers, either.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#679 at 12-06-2010 02:37 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
12-06-2010, 02:37 AM #679
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Glen Ford: Breaking the Obama Spell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUf6n...layer_embedded
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#680 at 12-06-2010 06:04 PM by Weave [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 909]
---
12-06-2010, 06:04 PM #680
Join Date
Feb 2010
Posts
909

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Example please.
Perhaps when he referred to Michelle Malkin as a "mashed up bag of meat"







Post#681 at 12-06-2010 08:53 PM by Publius [at joined Sep 2009 #posts 611]
---
12-06-2010, 08:53 PM #681
Join Date
Sep 2009
Posts
611

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
Olbermann never calls for hatred of anyone. Contempt, maybe, but then of someone who eminently deserves it.

He doesn't cut much slack for liberal wrong-doers, either.
I'm hearing that he's beginning to question the validity of Obama's birth certificate.







Post#682 at 12-07-2010 12:39 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
12-07-2010, 12:39 AM #682
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Example please.
The "worst person in the world" segment.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#683 at 12-07-2010 01:09 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
12-07-2010, 01:09 AM #683
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
The "worst person in the world" segment.

James50
IMO most people that get that label from him truly deserve it. I don't get how that's hate speech. If that is hate speech then my giving conservative friends a bad time is hate speech.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#684 at 12-07-2010 03:57 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
12-07-2010, 03:57 AM #684
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
The "worst person in the world" segment.

James50
At the most harmless, facetious because it is apolitical -- for instance, after the great Chicago Cubs third baseman Ron Santo died, the Baseball Hall of Fame for not enshrining him as a Hall of Famer.

(Technically the Hall of Fame may be right, as his career took a plunge, likely related to his health, which can't be accounted for lest the Hall of Fame be inundated with might-have-been stars like Denny McLain, Darryl Strawberry, and Dwight Gooden whose failure to maintain a high level of play for more than a few years might have been due to something more a personal culpability).

Then there are dumb crooks, fillers some days with little news, like a bank robber who sped away in a car with vanity plates.


When it is political it is for some egregious example of dishonesty, junk thought, meanness, or misbehavior. I can safely predict that if someone like Darrell Issa or Michelle Bachmann delivers as promised on the threat of using the House chambers as a three-ring circus of inquisitions into people whose loyalty to the real power of American politics (basically shadowy operatives like Karl Rogue or entrenched elites like the medical and oil cartels), then you can expect Keith Olbermann to go after them until he is forced out of American media. Don't pretend that the likes of Olbermann aren't necessary; when powerful media such as FoX Propaganda Channel lead the cheer for the political inquisition.

When elected liberals fail to live up to their mandates for change, Olbermann also faults them. Such is just as well. Over the last thirty years, American politicians other than those in impoverished districts full of non-white people have treated poverty as a political third rail. Poverty is real in America, and it is getting more pervasive and intense.

Democratic institutions are in danger in America, if not to intimidation and repression, then to groupthink that Corporate America fosters even to the extent of pseudo-populist movements such as the Tea Party -- and complacent apathy.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#685 at 12-07-2010 08:56 AM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
12-07-2010, 08:56 AM #685
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
The "worst person in the world" segment.

James50
I don't mind Olberman myself that much, although I prefer Madoff (I rarely watch either one of them.) But I think James has a point. That segment could easily be renamed to be less offensive and more effective. And the grammarian in me rebels--there's only one worst person in the world, whoever he or she may be, and it doesn't make any sense to rename them week after week.







Post#686 at 12-07-2010 10:59 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
12-07-2010, 10:59 AM #686
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

I must admit that "Worst Person in the World", if rationally applied to some vile beast in human form, would most likely be either the despot of the day or an old-news rehash of some serial or mass killer. Bernie Madoff isn't quite in the same league as Mahmoud Ahmedinedjad, Kim Jong-il, Dennis "BTK" Rader, or Charles Manson.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#687 at 12-07-2010 01:24 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
---
12-07-2010, 01:24 PM #687
Join Date
Jul 2002
Location
Arlington, VA 1956
Posts
9,209

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
I don't mind Olberman myself that much, although I prefer Madoff (I rarely watch either one of them.) But I think James has a point. That segment could easily be renamed to be less offensive and more effective. And the grammarian in me rebels--there's only one worst person in the world, whoever he or she may be, and it doesn't make any sense to rename them week after week.
I think you meant "Maddow", yes? Madoff was pretty vile.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#688 at 12-07-2010 03:59 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
12-07-2010, 03:59 PM #688
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
I think you meant "Maddow", yes? Madoff was pretty vile.
Yes. I'm not getting enough sleep lately.







Post#689 at 12-08-2010 10:44 AM by radind [at Alabama joined Sep 2009 #posts 1,595]
---
12-08-2010, 10:44 AM #689
Join Date
Sep 2009
Location
Alabama
Posts
1,595

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
So what is the highly-publicized hate speech of the Left? The Hard Right has its well-organized, well-funded machine. The lunatic fringe that FDR spoke of nearly eighty years is back, and it has cable TV (including one supposed news channel) behind it.
I don't spend my time wrting down all the talk on news media and other outlets. There has been hate speech out there. There was a lot of it during the Bush terms. I will pay more attention for future discussions. I consider myself an independent and have issues with both parties.







Post#690 at 12-10-2010 03:14 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
---
12-10-2010, 03:14 PM #690
Join Date
Jul 2002
Location
Arlington, VA 1956
Posts
9,209

My Nightmare

This cartoon expresses my nightmare.

I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#691 at 12-10-2010 03:26 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
---
12-10-2010, 03:26 PM #691
Join Date
Dec 2005
Posts
7,116

Pragmatism

Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
This cartoon expresses my nightmare.

Errrrr yes.
There is the reality that up till now all primary challenges end up with this result.







Post#692 at 12-10-2010 05:00 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
12-10-2010, 05:00 PM #692
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
This cartoon expresses my nightmare.

Depending on how you read the theory, this may be a necessary nightmare.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#693 at 12-10-2010 05:27 PM by TnT [at joined Feb 2005 #posts 2,005]
---
12-10-2010, 05:27 PM #693
Join Date
Feb 2005
Posts
2,005

Cardboard cut-outs

I've begun to wonder ... GWB seemed to me to be an ordinary dumb shit of a guy, in over his head, while the government in fact was being run by others. I don't think this is an original thought.

Given Obama's performance so far, perhaps he too is a cardboard cut-out, just one who can speak and read, and actually earned his good grades in school.

Perhaps Sarah could ascend the throne and nothing much would change, if the presidency has turned into a ceremonial position.

For that matter there are a lot of elective offices that seem to be going to similar empty suits.

Maybe I'm becoming a conspiracy theorist? Mark Zuckerberg, the CEO of Facebook is my nominee for the Anti-Christ.
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."







Post#694 at 12-10-2010 09:23 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
12-10-2010, 09:23 PM #694
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
This cartoon expresses my nightmare.



And people wonder why the political parties keep pissing in the faces of their own supporters over and over.

It's because you ask for it.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#695 at 12-10-2010 10:18 PM by The Rani [at joined Feb 2002 #posts 333]
---
12-10-2010, 10:18 PM #695
Join Date
Feb 2002
Posts
333

Quote Originally Posted by TnT View Post
Perhaps Sarah could ascend the throne and nothing much would change, if the presidency has turned into a ceremonial position.
She would be no better or worse than George W.
And if she got elected with, say, 30-40 percent of the vote, thanks to a large third party turnout, she couldn't get much done anyway.
Hell, maybe I'll vote for her in the primary!







Post#696 at 12-11-2010 02:01 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
12-11-2010, 02:01 AM #696
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
Depending on how you read the theory, this may be a necessary nightmare.
Perhaps. It may be necessary for a demogogue to come to power, and do a great many horrible, horrible things... for people on both sides of the aisle to get a clue.

The far-right fancies Obama to be a wannabe demogogue... even though he's acting far more like someone who is in over his head and looking for the exit. I expect him to decide by this time next year not to run for re-election, either on his own... or on the advice of others in the Democratic Party, who would rather not see him challenged for the nomination for obvious reasons.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#697 at 12-11-2010 10:43 AM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
---
12-11-2010, 10:43 AM #697
Join Date
Dec 2005
Posts
7,116

Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
The far-right fancies Obama to be a wannabe demogogue... even though he's acting far more like someone who is in over his head and looking for the exit. I expect him to decide by this time next year not to run for re-election, either on his own... or on the advice of others in the Democratic Party, who would rather not see him challenged for the nomination for obvious reasons.
It may sound a little far fetched but this may be that we are seeing the beginning of a process that will end with Obama choosing not to run fro re-election and the Democratic elite substituting Hillary in his place.







Post#698 at 12-11-2010 11:00 AM by AnneZob [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 287]
---
12-11-2010, 11:00 AM #698
Join Date
Sep 2008
Posts
287

Quote Originally Posted by TnT View Post
I've begun to wonder ... GWB seemed to me to be an ordinary dumb shit of a guy, in over his head, while the government in fact was being run by others. I don't think this is an original thought.

Given Obama's performance so far, perhaps he too is a cardboard cut-out, just one who can speak and read, and actually earned his good grades in school.

Perhaps Sarah could ascend the throne and nothing much would change, if the presidency has turned into a ceremonial position.

For that matter there are a lot of elective offices that seem to be going to similar empty suits.

Maybe I'm becoming a conspiracy theorist? Mark Zuckerberg, the CEO of Facebook is my nominee for the Anti-Christ.
I agree with you. You are not just a conspiracy theorist. Rather you are recognizing a well known pattern, at least from Chinese history.

One thing about the end of Chinese dynasties, especially the Han dynasty is the political instability, the rapid succession of rulers which are increasingly puppets of a corrupt elite. In the case of the fall of the Han dynasty the emperors in the end were just children. While the Chongzhen emperor at the end of the Ming was an adult he was the puppet of corrupt enuchs who framed the righteous officials and generals.

You can also see this in Japan today with the rapid succession of prime ministers with the real power with power brokers in the shadows, like the "Shadow Shogun".

The idea of the traditional Chinese dynastic cycle political theory is:

- You have a uniquely talented man found a dynasty. However the decisions made early on for good or ill guide the course of the dynasty.
- You have maintainers - men of modest talent but by respecting precedent maintain the empire.
- Then you have rulers who start dynastic decay. They are not so much evil as indolent and lazy.
- Then you have the restorer. Although raised in an imperial family he understands the woes of the people. He is a hands on manager to officials. He honors the worthy and is quick to correct his errors.
- Then you have the destroyer. Unlike those who allow a slow decay, he actively destroys the empire. He is dull and incapable of change. He is unwilling to honor the example set by his ancestors. He employs sycophants and dismisses those who speak out.


If you want to frame America in terms of the traditional Chinese political views of the dynastic cycle, Washington would be the founder, FDR would be the restorers and well, we are now close to the end of dynasty.

Following Chinese dynastic political theory, we would be at the point where still possible to save the empire as there are talented officials who are loyal to the empire and its ideals if only a new restorer emerges who uses them and does not trust the corrupt. However past a certain point the situation has deteriorated to the point that it is no longer possible to recover.

FDR as the restorer was able to crush the corrupt elite and restore the dynasty. However, now we may have reached the end of dynasty. The constant swings in control of power between the GOP and Dems which are likely to continue into the future. And it not really mattering who is in power because whoever is in power is controlled by the corrupt elite reminds me of the political situation at the end of dynasties. However I think we would be at the point in which we still have talented honest officials like Volcker and Elizabeth Warren and if a ruler emerged who would use them instead of listening to say, Geithner the situation would still be able to rectify itself.

So while there is a generational cycle going on, we may have a larger dynastic cycle overlaid on top of it which means the end of the Republic founded by Washington.

On the bright side of things in the Chinese dynastic cycle, the period of oppression doesn't last forever because as Sima Guang put it, in such situation, even if an external enemy does not arise, then an internal enemy (bloody revolution) emerges. I mean it is a cycle after all. However in some cases, the end is so chaotic that there are centuries of chaos before a new stable dynasty is founded (see end of Han dynasty). So maybe not necessarily a positive thing...

One thing is if we are facing the end of dynasty, then really who gets elected in 2012, 2014 and 2016 doesn't really matter because they will just be puppets of the corrupt elite anyway (a bit like the parade of Japanese PMs or the child emperors at the end of Chinese dynasties). However I still believe at this point it is not too late to turn things around. The point of no return however will probably be when good officials start getting punished for speaking the truth and evil ones rewarded and the public sees this happening (not just hidden behind a facade) and feels intense despair, when the ordinary people, even those who are not political, seek to wriggle out of government control (evading taxes on a large scale), government services collapse, bandits (well gangs really) start roaming, and when the government attempts to exert control there are riots. Fortunately I don't think we are at that point yet, though it is approaching.

One interesting thing about the fall of the Han dynasty and also the fall of the Roman Republic was how seamless they were. The people who replaced them didn't say "Well now the Han is finished and I'm taking over". They ruled in the *name* of the Han/Roman Republic and it was only a generation or two later that the old empire/republic was officially finished. Another interesting thing is that the people who ended up ruling in the end and founding the new Chinese dynasty or I guess the Roman Empire were not the ones who started the trouble. In fact in the case of Cao Cao at least, he was initially a hero against the corrupt elite. I can't remember about Octavian but I believe he was quite popular against the corrupt elite too.
Last edited by AnneZob; 12-11-2010 at 11:18 AM.







Post#699 at 12-11-2010 01:42 PM by wtrg8 [at NoVA joined Dec 2008 #posts 1,262]
---
12-11-2010, 01:42 PM #699
Join Date
Dec 2008
Location
NoVA
Posts
1,262

[QUOTE=The Wonkette;344191]This cartoon expresses my nightmare.

[/Q

Mine as well. There are some rational Conservatives out there.







Post#700 at 12-11-2010 01:53 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
12-11-2010, 01:53 PM #700
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Quote Originally Posted by AnneZob View Post
I agree with you. You are not just a conspiracy theorist. Rather you are recognizing a well known pattern, at least from Chinese history.

One thing about the end of Chinese dynasties, especially the Han dynasty is the political instability, the rapid succession of rulers which are increasingly puppets of a corrupt elite. In the case of the fall of the Han dynasty the emperors in the end were just children. While the Chongzhen emperor at the end of the Ming was an adult he was the puppet of corrupt enuchs who framed the righteous officials and generals.

You can also see this in Japan today with the rapid succession of prime ministers with the real power with power brokers in the shadows, like the "Shadow Shogun".

The idea of the traditional Chinese dynastic cycle political theory is:

- You have a uniquely talented man found a dynasty. However the decisions made early on for good or ill guide the course of the dynasty.
- You have maintainers - men of modest talent but by respecting precedent maintain the empire.
- Then you have rulers who start dynastic decay. They are not so much evil as indolent and lazy.
- Then you have the restorer. Although raised in an imperial family he understands the woes of the people. He is a hands on manager to officials. He honors the worthy and is quick to correct his errors.
- Then you have the destroyer. Unlike those who allow a slow decay, he actively destroys the empire. He is dull and incapable of change. He is unwilling to honor the example set by his ancestors. He employs sycophants and dismisses those who speak out.


If you want to frame America in terms of the traditional Chinese political views of the dynastic cycle, Washington would be the founder, FDR would be the restorers and well, we are now close to the end of dynasty.

Following Chinese dynastic political theory, we would be at the point where still possible to save the empire as there are talented officials who are loyal to the empire and its ideals if only a new restorer emerges who uses them and does not trust the corrupt. However past a certain point the situation has deteriorated to the point that it is no longer possible to recover.

FDR as the restorer was able to crush the corrupt elite and restore the dynasty. However, now we may have reached the end of dynasty. The constant swings in control of power between the GOP and Dems which are likely to continue into the future. And it not really mattering who is in power because whoever is in power is controlled by the corrupt elite reminds me of the political situation at the end of dynasties. However I think we would be at the point in which we still have talented honest officials like Volcker and Elizabeth Warren and if a ruler emerged who would use them instead of listening to say, Geithner the situation would still be able to rectify itself.

So while there is a generational cycle going on, we may have a larger dynastic cycle overlaid on top of it which means the end of the Republic founded by Washington.

On the bright side of things in the Chinese dynastic cycle, the period of oppression doesn't last forever because as Sima Guang put it, in such situation, even if an external enemy does not arise, then an internal enemy (bloody revolution) emerges. I mean it is a cycle after all. However in some cases, the end is so chaotic that there are centuries of chaos before a new stable dynasty is founded (see end of Han dynasty). So maybe not necessarily a positive thing...

One thing is if we are facing the end of dynasty, then really who gets elected in 2012, 2014 and 2016 doesn't really matter because they will just be puppets of the corrupt elite anyway (a bit like the parade of Japanese PMs or the child emperors at the end of Chinese dynasties). However I still believe at this point it is not too late to turn things around. The point of no return however will probably be when good officials start getting punished for speaking the truth and evil ones rewarded and the public sees this happening (not just hidden behind a facade) and feels intense despair, when the ordinary people, even those who are not political, seek to wriggle out of government control (evading taxes on a large scale), government services collapse, bandits (well gangs really) start roaming, and when the government attempts to exert control there are riots. Fortunately I don't think we are at that point yet, though it is approaching.

One interesting thing about the fall of the Han dynasty and also the fall of the Roman Republic was how seamless they were. The people who replaced them didn't say "Well now the Han is finished and I'm taking over". They ruled in the *name* of the Han/Roman Republic and it was only a generation or two later that the old empire/republic was officially finished. Another interesting thing is that the people who ended up ruling in the end and founding the new Chinese dynasty or I guess the Roman Empire were not the ones who started the trouble. In fact in the case of Cao Cao at least, he was initially a hero against the corrupt elite. I can't remember about Octavian but I believe he was quite popular against the corrupt elite too.
Octavius of course had to battle Mark Antony and Cleopatra's Egypt...

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
-----------------------------------------