Ditto. I get annoyed by all the Kennedy worship by Boomers and Silents. Some on the Left that believe in the various conspiracy theories downright consider him a leftist martyr who was killed because he was planning on reforming the Fed and stopping the M-I Complex, which is ridiculous. Some of these idolizers even claim that the CIA did the Bay of Pigs invasion behind his back, what BS.Originally Posted by ASB65
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
But, it did spawn "The Dead Kennedy's"!
California Uber Alles! And Jerry Brown is Governor again...
Whether he was a mystical figure or not is completely irrelevant. You based your argument on the idea that Kennedy would have conducted the Vietnam War, and that is just not true.
Kennedy was still not popular with the Right wing, no matter how great he was. Goldwater still would have run in 1964, probably nominated, and lost, and the same landslide would have happened. Perhaps the only difference is that the civil rights bill might not have passed yet, so the South might not have gone for Goldwater. Kennedy would not have been as effective in getting stuff passed as LBJ was, but he still would have had the same large majorities in congress, and a lot would have been accomplished-- without the tragedy and dividing factor of the war.
Even if Kennedy's sexual dalliances or dirty tricks against Castro had come out, that would not have severely damaged his reputation in the 1960s. The press did not go after politicians like they do now. Kennedy was not popular because he was a saint, but because he was charismatic and seemed to get the country moving. Whatever difficulties he might have run into in 8 years, they would have been nothing like LBJ faced as a result of his war policy.
We still would have had an awakening, which would have still disturbed the squares and the straights, but perhaps an awakening without the ugly edge that the desparate need to stop the war gave it. There would have been no Jane Fonda for people in Kansas to hate.
Overall if JFK and RFK had not been cut down by assassins with easy access to guns, I think our nation would have been better off today; even if not extremely so, since the materialistic, racist, and reactionary tendencies in America would still have been there, and the difficulties of a multi-racial society would have been there too. But we would have been less divided, and more progressive, and some of our social ills would have been dealt with. The money wasted in Vietnam could have cured a lot of our poverty, for example. And if the Great Society had thus been allowed to actually work, the right wing would not have become so powerful, which has blocked all progress in America for 30 years. And what a difference THAT has made!
I am inclined to think Robert Kennedy would have been nominated, and elected over Richard Nixon. RFK had the right message to appeal to many folks who voted for Nixon. He had a healing message once LBJ had been forced out. Remember too how quickly Humphrey's position improved once he moved on Vietnam. Many on the Left refused to vote for Humphrey and would have voted for Kennedy. Of course, if his brother had not been killed, and there had been no Vietnam War, RFK probably would have been elected at some point as a matter of course, just because he was a Kennedy.
On the other hand, guns seem to be an American cross to bear. My astrology data indicates that the JFK assassination was pre-ordained. It was his destiny, and ours to live with. The RFK one was somewhat less so, however.
The astrology does explain many things about you. Rational thinking really isn't your strength is it? Still nursing that phobia I see.
If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.
- Ludwig von Mises
Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil.
- Lazarus Long
Most likely the three civil-rights workers Schwerner, Goodman, and Chaney would have still been murdered; racist cops would have used dogs and fire hoses against peaceful demonstrators. The racist order in the South would have unraveled after it was shown to have consequences that no well-intentioned American could tolerate. Northern conservatives like Everett Dirksen turned on those racist abusers of power, and the Jim Crow order was doomed whether JFK or LBJ were President. Can you even think of Richard Nixon, had he won in 1960, responding any other way?
LBJ was a crude, vile, power-hungry man who could make even his good deeds look self-serving. JFK seemed more cautious about war than did LBJ... but at that, alternative history comes into play. The Boom Awakening would have been more cultural and religious and less political.Even if Kennedy's sexual dalliances or dirty tricks against Castro had come out, that would not have severely damaged his reputation in the 1960s. The press did not go after politicians like they do now. Kennedy was not popular because he was a saint, but because he was charismatic and seemed to get the country moving. Whatever difficulties he might have run into in 8 years, they would have been nothing like LBJ faced as a result of his war policy.
The insipid GI culture left much to be desired. Do you remember the awful "light instrumental" music on FM radio usually identifiable with the letters "EZ" among the call letters? It's best forgotten, but it typically stripped a Broadway show tune, pop standard, or a TV theme song of any lyrics and gave it a quasi-symphonic, but gimmicky orchestration. In the absence of violas the "music" had little depth. Kids stuck listening to that wanted stronger. Some of us gravitated to fellows like Anton Bruckner and Gustav Mahler.We still would have had an awakening, which would have still disturbed the squares and the straights, but perhaps an awakening without the ugly edge that the desparate need to stop the war gave it. There would have been no Jane Fonda for people in Kansas to hate.
Politics? Without the War in Vietnam, they would have been OK on politics. They buckled under to the Silent on Civil Rights
Overall if JFK and RFK had not been cut down by assassins with easy access to guns, I think our nation would have been better off today; even if not extremely so, since the materialistic, racist, and reactionary tendencies in America would still have been there, and the difficulties of a multi-racial society would have been there too. But we would have been less divided, and more progressive, and some of our social ills would have been dealt with. The money wasted in Vietnam could have cured a lot of our poverty, for example. And if the Great Society had thus been allowed to actually work, the right wing would not have become so powerful, which has blocked all progress in America for 30 years. And what a difference THAT has made!
But what stops the oil shock? What keeps Ronald Reagan from becoming President? America took a gradual swing toward the Right in the 1970s and intensified the turn in the 1980s. The Boom Awakening made possible the right-wing, anti-intellectual fundamentalism of the Religious Right.
It could also have been Kennedy to Nixon or Kennedy to Humphrey. Who knows?I am inclined to think Robert Kennedy would have been nominated, and elected over Richard Nixon. RFK had the right message to appeal to many folks who voted for Nixon. He had a healing message once LBJ had been forced out. Remember too how quickly Humphrey's position improved once he moved on Vietnam. Many on the Left refused to vote for Humphrey and would have voted for Kennedy. Of course, if his brother had not been killed, and there had been no Vietnam War, RFK probably would have been elected at some point as a matter of course, just because he was a Kennedy.
Maybe the gun culture dies a little in this Crisis era.On the other hand, guns seem to be an American cross to bear. My astrology data indicates that the JFK assassination was pre-ordained. It was his destiny, and ours to live with. The RFK one was somewhat less so, however.
Hint: most people have no use for astrology here.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
It does not exactly help the astrology folks IMO that everyone seems to be going through a major personality crisis after their sign 'changed.'
Having gone from a "Sagittarian" to an "Ophiuchan", I have no found no new desire to handle snakes.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Well, now I see we disagree on other things too. Well, so be it.
I don't think he would have been able to handle it. Remember, he looked to the south for support in 1968, following up on Goldwater.
Quite agree with all that.
LBJ was a crude, vile, power-hungry man who could make even his good deeds look self-serving. JFK seemed more cautious about war than did LBJ... but at that, alternative history comes into play. The Boom Awakening would have been more cultural and religious and less political.
The insipid GI culture left much to be desired. Do you remember the awful "light instrumental" music on FM radio usually identifiable with the letters "EZ" among the call letters? It's best forgotten, but it typically stripped a Broadway show tune, pop standard, or a TV theme song of any lyrics and gave it a quasi-symphonic, but gimmicky orchestration. In the absence of violas the "music" had little depth. Kids stuck listening to that wanted stronger. Some of us gravitated to fellows like Anton Bruckner and Gustav Mahler.
Politics? Without the War in Vietnam, they would have been OK on politics. They buckled under to the Silent on Civil Rights
You are correct about the oil shock. It was not shocking enough, apparently, or Carter might have succeeded in shifting America to green energy, which we still refuse to do 30-plus years on.But what stops the oil shock? What keeps Ronald Reagan from becoming President? America took a gradual swing toward the Right in the 1970s and intensified the turn in the 1980s. The Boom Awakening made possible the right-wing, anti-intellectual fundamentalism of the Religious Right.
But I think the shift to the Right leading to RR could have been avoided without Vietnam. The War sapped resources from the War on Poverty and Great Society, as well as divided the people and caused a reaction against protesters. Had those programs been allowed to work, the cynicism about government during and after the 1960s might have been weaker. Also, Watergate helped the anti-government sentiment to grow. As often happens, misdeeds by the right-wing actually helped the right-wing to grow.
The Religious right was a reaction to the Boom Awakening, meaning the counterculture, hippies, etc.; they said specifically so. It was not in any way a result of it. I'd call it a counter-awakening. But without the angry, raw edge the anti-war movement and the riots gave to the hippie/Left Boom Awakening, there's a chance the Religious right would have been weaker. I wouldn't say that's a certainty; I think there still would have been some degree of reaction to the counter-culture.
It doesn't much matter to me whether people do or not; my original purpose in coming here was to clue people in that astrological and generational cycles are connected. That is a fact, though not the authors' intention. There are strong avoidance factors to astrology; it seems absurd on the surface, at least to many who have the scientific mindset, and to others as well. But the reality about astrology is much deeper than the conventional image of it. There needs to be some whittling away of the anti-astrology bias. Most people who knock it, of course, know nothing about it. Issac Newton, that champion of materialistic physics, was famous for rebuking someone who criticized his interest and belief in astrology. "I have studied the subject, sir. You have not."Hint: most people have no use for astrology here.
He was an alchemist as well; there's another taboo subject in scientific circles, yet the word alchemy is now ubiquitous in our culture (as are phrases such as "if the stars are aligned"). Again, the real thing is not the popular conception.
There is no sign change. That rumor is just a symptom of the fact that the skeptics don't know the subject. All astrologers know that the constellations are not the signs. The signs are called the tropical zodiac, and are based on the seasons. Astrology is first and last a study of cycles, not constellations.
The most important cycles are those of the Earth and the Moon. One of those, is the 25,000 year wobble of the Earth's axis that causes the precession of equinoxes (aka "sign change"). That cycle, causing the difference between signs and constellations, was used by some astrologers who believe in both to declare that "this is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius" (because the backward difference of one sign will now, over 2000 years, become two, so that the equinox is shifting from Sun in the constellation Pisces on March 20, into Aquarius. But the spring equinox always remains the beginning of the sign Aries).
So it is an irony that the reason most often cited by skeptics that astrology is "false" (or in this case, "the signs have changed,") is also the basis for the most famous prophecy ever made by astrologers. If they didn't know about this so-called "sign change," why do they use it to make their most famous prophecy?
All that is not to say that more-informed skeptics might also have some other relevant criticisms of astrology. But that so many of them, and their readers, fall for this obvious ruse, shows how little people know about astrology. As Issac Newton said to someone who rebuked him for believing in astrology, "Sir, I have studied it, you have not."
The reason I mention the case of JFK, are my thoughts about how things might have been different, had he not been shot down by an assassin with easy access to a gun. I do need to qualify it with my knowledge that every astrological indication shows that, at least, this event was as pre-ordained as any event could ever be. That tempers my thoughts about how things might have been different; that's all. I know they probably would not have been.
And LBJ seems to have been pre-destined to succeed him too. Oh well! Sometimes there are things that a people are destined to learn, and just have to deal with. It is "in our stars" that we need to recognize and face our violent culture and our imperialistic temptations. It is our cross to bear. It is probably similar to the lessons and reversals which every powerful empire has ever faced, or will face.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 01-23-2011 at 08:45 PM.
Actually, the most often cited reason is that there is no evidence of any link between date of birth and personality. Each "sign" is supposed to have certain personality tendencies -- but if you actually measure personality types and map them relative to their birthday, the patterns don't appear. A Pisces is supposed to act in a particular way, but they don't do so any more than Capricorns do.
So, leaving aside the total lack of any reasonable mechanism by which astronomical movements can determine when an assassination will happen -- the real reason not to believe in astrology is that personalities do not correspond to birth dates. Astrology is an elaborate and implausible explanation for a phenomenon that doesn't exist in the first place.
I disagree of course, but fair enough. I expect this from a science-oriented person such as yourself. Your criticism is not based on an error like the so-called "sign change."
It doesn't really matter whether or not there actually was a sign change. It was the way people acted when they realized that their sign changed. I had facebook friends try to justify why they were somehow Pisces all along after believing for 18 years that they were Aries. Those are very different signs with very different personalities. I suppose this may be a bit hypocritical for me to say as someone on T4T but astrology almost seems rooted in confirmation bias in order to equate a person to a label.
It's an ancient belief system older than Nebuchadnezzar. I think it can compete with Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and Confuscism for being one of the oldest belief systems still in practice.
~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 01-23-2011 at 11:10 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Actually, astrology makes more sense to me than the "end times" doctrines of the Southern Baptist types.
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."
But they are both equally bullsh*t.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Fallacy ad antiquitatem.
Example:
Slavery has existed from the dawn of civilization, if not earlier and existed in a sophisticated society as late as 1875 (Brazil). It is thus an appropriate way of getting necessary work that must be performed cheaply and obediently to be done cheaply and obediently.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
True. But, like fortune cookies, the astrologers are more fun.But they are both equally bullsh*t.
Do you even realize that you're using "Is/Ought" as YOUR argument?
PoC67
PS: Chas did say "Belief", not "Knowledge" and even still, are you really that confident in your own Knowledge concerning Astrology and what Chas was even saying?
I merely "suspect" I know what Chas is meaning, and I've discussed Ancient Belief/Knowledge AT LENGTH with him.
Of course I may be in the presence of "The One". If so, I apologize and stand most assuredly corrected!
I'm feeling a tad "impish" at the moment......ya think?
Last edited by princeofcats67; 01-24-2011 at 10:02 AM.
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
You must have me confused with Eric. In no way shape or form did I say that I believe in astrology--I just stated a fact about its existence.
To Tybalt, thanks for throwing the rescue buoy, but it clonked me in the head. Aim better next time.
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
I guess you feel like "collateral damage" to my Post?You must have me confused with Eric. In no way shape or form did I say that I believe in astrology--I just stated a fact about its existence.
To Tybalt, thanks for throwing the rescue buoy, but it clonked me in the head. Aim better next time.
~Chas'88
I know exactly what you meant. I think PBro was just trying to knock Astrology, but I believed his argument whether valid or not was hypocritical. My only intention was to point that out.
PoC67
PS: I believe you don't need any rescuing, but I didn't mean for my "snowball' to hit you none-the-less.
My eye-sight(and hearing for that matter), are deteriorating pretty quickly so you might want to PUT ME ON "Imp-Watch".
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
You might want to add your Imp-o-meter to that list there Tybalt. I think it needs a check up.I guess you feel like "collateral damage" to my Post?
I know exactly what you meant. I think PBro was just trying to knock Astrology, but I believed his argument whether valid or not was hypocritical. My only intention was to point that out.
PoC67
PS: I believe you don't need any rescuing, but I didn't mean for my "snowball' to hit you none-the-less.
My eye-sight(and hearing for that matter), are deteriorating pretty quickly so you might want to PUT ME ON "Imp-Watch".
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Man, looking forward to seeing you "drunk," if you're this good sober...
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein
"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein
I have my days, apparently this one of them. I used to say to my friends, before I drank: "why should I drink and do drugs when I can replicate the feelings/reactions without having to do them?"Man, looking forward to seeing you "drunk," if you're this good sober...
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Oh no. He'll probably go-on slobering about "defeating the empire" or why Princess Leia "isn't that into him".Man, looking forward to seeing you "drunk," if you're this good sober...
PoC67
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."
