Originally Posted by The Rani

Exactly! That's why everyone on public assistance should have to do community service.

I think such people need real jobs.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Here's a little Wisdom concerning "Promises" that was passed-down to me from my Ancestors.

The Lollipop-Guy from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang(...and all..."Free"!)

Here's another one showing what happens to you if you take away the Revenue Sources(ie: Hansel and Gretel) for their Utopian Visions! Bewitched Bunny.(Me and my generous impulses!)

Prince

I viewed the cartoon and was dismayed by the depiction of two hungry and lost kids as selfish gourging pigs. Is this your interpretation? If so, it is a distortion of hunger and need in our society.

Not one of us has made it financially without the assistance of someone or tax paid services. There is a severe disadvantage of people born into poverty. It becomes, without some type of assistance, a downward spiral.

I have often shared with our children that they have succeeded in life because they had support. They not only had us to fall back on if they went through hard times, but they also had programs of student loans and other tax paid for services that helped them succeed. But when your born into extreme poverty and an environment where everyone is in the same boat, it is like quick sand. Throwing them a rope is in everyone's best interest. If that means my taxes go up, then so be it.

Will there be some who abuse our kindness? You bet there will be. But to punish everyone who lives in poverty for the abuse by some, is not a very smart move.

Originally Posted by Odin

There you go again, thinking you are oh-so superior. I know plenty of smart, clever people that don't get anywhere. Why? Because THERE ARE NO DAMN JOBS, that is why. And the jobs that exist pay diddly squat. Also, as Playwrite as posted in several threads, technology is going to make unemployment an even greater problem as time goes on.

I made diddly squat at the beginning. Today, people coming out think they should be paid as much as the people who have worked at a place or in a field for a decade. I saw lots of smart and clever kids come out of school. School teaches one thing. Experience teaches something else. The schools taught me theory and the basics. I really didn't know squat until I'd seen a few hundred units operating. At that point, I still really didn't know shit but I knew more about the equipment than when I started. And then there was the customer aspects to contend with which required another coarse of on the job learning.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

I made diddly squat at the beginning. Today, people coming out think they should be paid as much as the people who have worked at a place or in a field for a decade. I saw lots of smart and clever kids come out of school. School teaches one thing. Experience teaches something else. The schools taught me theory and the basics. I really didn't know squat until I'd seen a few hundred units operating. At that point, I still really didn't know shit but I knew more about the equipment than when I started. And then there was the customer aspects to contend with which required another coarse of on the job learning.

How does that conflict with anything I said?

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

I am getting tired of the stale meme that those of us who support a significant role in the government want to steal the hard earned dollars of working people. I think this is where much of the reaction to some posters comes from. We can have a legitimate argument about the proper role of government, but to characterize those of us who support higher taxes to pay for more government services as supporting theft and parasites gets old.

I view taxes as the price for the government services that are required for a complex society. And as for the safety net -- yes, people make stupid choices. If you are an 18-year-old from a middle class family, the consequences of your stupid choices probably can be overcome without too much difficulty -- you might have to go to the community college and then transfer to the 4-year-college, for example. If you are on the edge, a stupid choice can be devastating. Also, some people just have bad luck -- born into a disfunctional family, getting disabled, working hard at a low-paying job and then breaking a leg and losing your job, etc... I prefer a society that helps one another.

The real problem is not programs for the poor. The problems are:

1) Programs that cover everybody regardless of means, and often entail complete or near-complete nationalization of an entire sector of the economy (education, heath care, Social Security, Medicare).

2) Government employee unions. They represent organized, legitimized, systematic political corruption and embezzlement of public funds, nothing more, nothing less. They prevent government from operating efficiently, and as a result, waste the taxpayer funds that they do not steal outright.


The goals of the left wing political establishment and the goals of the average voters who support them are two very different things. The idea that the Democrats are going to steal from rich people and give it to their supporters is definitely what drives most Democrat voters. But what drives the elite is power and control. And the above mechanisms are the way they wield it. I have far less concern about progressive taxation (until it harms the economy) or programs for the poor than I do about the clear animating drive of the left to establish an authoritarian "progressive" state that runs every aspect of society from the top down.

Originally Posted by Deb C

I viewed the cartoon and was dismayed by the depiction of two hungry and lost kids as selfish gourging pigs. Is this your interpretation? If so, it is a distortion of hunger and need in our society.

Not one of us has made it financially without the assistance of someone or tax paid services. There is a severe disadvantage of people born into poverty. It becomes, without some type of assistance, a downward spiral.

I have often shared with our children that they have succeeded in life because they had support. They not only had us to fall back on if they went through hard times, but they also had programs of student loans and other tax paid for services that helped them succeed. But when your born into extreme poverty and an environment where everyone is in the same boat, it is like quick sand. Throwing them a rope is in everyone's best interest. If that means my taxes go up, then so be it.

Will there be some who abuse our kindness? You bet there will be. But to punish everyone who lives in poverty for the abuse by some, is not a very smart move.

Deb, these are metaphors. It's my little "artistc statement". No offense was meant, but I'm not about to spend the time to try and explain the analogy. I actually tried and it takes too long for the technically-challenged such as myself.

I'll leave now. Thanks, had a great time. See you around.

Prince (heading for the door ASAP).

Originally Posted by Deb C

I viewed the cartoon and was dismayed by the depiction of two hungry and lost kids as selfish gourging pigs. Is this your interpretation? If so, it is a distortion of hunger and need in our society.

Not one of us has made it financially without the assistance of someone or tax paid services. There is a severe disadvantage of people born into poverty. It becomes, without some type of assistance, a downward spiral.

I have often shared with our children that they have succeeded in life because they had support. They not only had us to fall back on if they went through hard times, but they also had programs of student loans and other tax paid for services that helped them succeed. But when your born into extreme poverty and an environment where everyone is in the same boat, it is like quick sand. Throwing them a rope is in everyone's best interest. If that means my taxes go up, then so be it.

Will there be some who abuse our kindness? You bet there will be. But to punish everyone who lives in poverty for the abuse by some, is not a very smart move.

I prefer that my child learns to take credit and take on the responsibilty for her own success. I don't believe it's good to teach a kid that their success is reliant on me and society. All your doing is positioning yourself or the governmet to take away the credit for your childs success.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Deb, these are metaphors. It's my little "artistc statement". No offense was meant, but I'm not about to spend the time to try and explain the analogy. I actually tried and it takes too long for the technically-challenged such as myself.

I'll leave now. Thanks, had a great time. See you around.

Prince (heading for the door ASAP).

I wasn't offended. I was dismayed at the depiiction of the children characters in the cartoon. Please don't take my comment as personal because it wasn't intended to be that in any respect.

Originally Posted by The Rani

WTF??? You also said this:


So which is it?

Uh, it's called PEOPLE CAN'T FIND JOBS.

Originally Posted by Odin

How does that conflict with anything I said?

It doesn't.

Originally Posted by Odin

Uh, it's called PEOPLE CAN'T FIND JOBS.

Is it people can't find jobs or is it people can't find the jobs that they want?

Originally Posted by The Rani

WHAT???
Dude, I don't know you at all, and I couldn't possibly say that I like you or don't like you.
But now I am intrigued. What have I written that makes you think I don't like you?

There's an interesting pattern developing here--this is the second time it's happened in just a couple of weeks. I say something to the Rani that seems to me rather obvious, and she asks me to explain myself. (The first time was when she quoted a post of mine back to me and I said, quite accurately, that it didn't reflect bragging about my position, money (such as it is), or background.) I'm not going to get bogged down in long, useless exchange and I'm not going to start looking up people's posts or keeping books on things people say. Every one else has read the posts in question and can make up their own mind.

More generally, I actually think that although we obviously don't know a great many things about one another--hell, it's quite possible that some people are pretending to be people they are not, even down to basic categories like gender--I think that we have learned a great deal about each other, and certainly enough to form likes and dislikes on something other than "prejudice."

Now moving right along to the actual subject of this argument, the irony is that economic activity, which some of us seem to think represents pure individualism, cannot take place without laws, currency, infrastructure, police forces, etc., all of which cost money, which in turn has to be provided by taxes, which people are not likely to pay if there isn't some fairness involved in them. And by the way, the word "progressive" means going forward, literally, and it's clear that many Tea Partiers specifically want to go backward, and Glenn Beck actually hit the nail on the head by naming Teddy Roosevelt, the member of the Progressive generation who is on Mt. Rushmore, as the source of all modern evil--he did introduce the idea that governmental power had to balance corporate power if our Constitution was not to become a joke and a travesty, and he was right.

I don't suppose many of the conservatives are likely to follow up on this suggestion but I wish they could take a look at pp. 7-25 of my book, Politics and War, which are about pre-modern or barely modern political life. The high nobility were a law unto themselves and walked around with armed retainers. Perhaps that is where our own would-be Howard Roarks want us to wind up? In any event, it was no fun, especially for ordinary middle class people like most of us happen to be. The National Association of Scholars has just released a report on the disappearance of Western Civilization courses from elite colleges and universities in the last 45 years. They have been replaced by World History courses which usually portray western civilization as disruptive and oppressive. Perhaps that's part of the reason why so many of our younger posters take so many of the geratest achievements of western civilization for granted and seem more than happy to toss some of them into the ash can. Pat is about 7 years older than I, I believe, and I can see that she, like me, really feels she's watching the eclipse of civilization as we know it. Ouch.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Deb, these are metaphors. It's my little "artistc statement". No offense was meant, but I'm not about to spend the time to try and explain the analogy. I actually tried and it takes too long for the technically-challenged such as myself.

I'll leave now. Thanks, had a great time. See you around.

Prince (heading for the door ASAP).

LOL. I get the metaphor--as in," that's what I get for saving those kids" as the witch sharpens her cleaver and chases him around on her broom--sidesaddle. It's not the kids who are voracious, it's the witch. I have always adored Bugs Bunny and all the Warner Bros cartoons. I find Hansel and Gretel as fat little German kids chowing down pretty hilarious. These cartoons look for laughs where they find them. Not always PC--thank goodness. They give me wonderful memories of sitting and watching them with my father, who'd seen them in the movie theater as a kid and teenager. He'd laugh and laugh and then imitate them and we'd laugh and laugh. He would have done a great impression of Hansel and Gretel. And when you're a little kid, what could be better?

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

Is it people can't find jobs or is it people can't find the jobs that they want?

Most poor unemployed people would be happy with ANY job. Quit using that disgusting talking point.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

I get the impression, you would be willing to hand over all your wealth to the government to keep your social security check and your medicare and sustain your superior sense of goodness.

Wrong. Dead wrong. What you did was you took the fact that I agree to a certain mix of taxes and services, and pushed it clear to the far end of the scale, since it's obviously All (they break into my house and carry off Grandma's silver to give to the poor) or Nothing. And if you quote slippery slope, I will remind you of the enormous stickiness this slope has historically been shown to have.

As for my superior sense of goodness - where'n'hell did you get that from? I know damn well I'm no angel, and don't claim to be, either, not being *that* stupid!

Originally Posted by The Rani

Exactly! That's why everyone on public assistance should have to do community service.

Right. And if they're blind, deaf, and quadriplegic, they should be given the job of evaluating the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch. Brownie points to whoever recognizes the book that metaphor came from, or even the author.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

I prefer that my child learns to take credit and take on the responsibilty for her own success. I don't believe it's good to teach a kid that their success is reliant on me and society. All your doing is positioning yourself or the governmet to take away the credit for your childs success.

We supported our kids in the best ways possible. We moved to a very good school district, even though it was hard for us at the time to manage the mortgage, so they would have an excellent education. We also had to pay higher taxes to live in that district.

Being a support system to our children is different than rescuing them from their problems. Rescuing is dysfunctional. Giving kids the tools to succeed is what responsible parents do. But not all parents can afford to do what we have done for our children. This is where we as a society can help through our taxes. Providing Head Start and job training programs for those who live in poverty is at least giving them a fighting chance.

It just makes sense to invest in social uplift programs. A society that fails to take care of one another, is a society that will pay a heavy price in the long run. It's hard to pull yourself by your boot straps if you don't have boots.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

Is it people can't find jobs or is it people can't find the jobs that they want?

They can not find JOBS!!!! Period. QED. End of story. Get you head out of Wall Street and the BS coming out of there and hit the streets looking for work in today's economy.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

There's an interesting pattern developing here--this is the second time it's happened in just a couple of weeks. I say something to the Rani that seems to me rather obvious, and she asks me to explain myself. (The first time was when she quoted a post of mine back to me and I said, quite accurately, that it didn't reflect bragging about my position, money (such as it is), or background.) I'm not going to get bogged down in long, useless exchange and I'm not going to start looking up people's posts or keeping books on things people say. Every one else has read the posts in question and can make up their own mind.

More generally, I actually think that although we obviously don't know a great many things about one another--hell, it's quite possible that some people are pretending to be people they are not, even down to basic categories like gender--I think that we have learned a great deal about each other, and certainly enough to form likes and dislikes on something other than "prejudice."

Now moving right along to the actual subject of this argument, the irony is that economic activity, which some of us seem to think represents pure individualism, cannot take place without laws, currency, infrastructure, police forces, etc., all of which cost money, which in turn has to be provided by taxes, which people are not likely to pay if there isn't some fairness involved in them. And by the way, the word "progressive" means going forward, literally, and it's clear that many Tea Partiers specifically want to go backward, and Glenn Beck actually hit the nail on the head by naming Teddy Roosevelt, the member of the Progressive generation who is on Mt. Rushmore, as the source of all modern evil--he did introduce the idea that governmental power had to balance corporate power if our Constitution was not to become a joke and a travesty, and he was right.

I don't suppose many of the conservatives are likely to follow up on this suggestion but I wish they could take a look at pp. 7-25 of my book, Politics and War, which are about pre-modern or barely modern political life. The high nobility were a law unto themselves and walked around with armed retainers. Perhaps that is where our own would-be Howard Roarks want us to wind up? In any event, it was no fun, especially for ordinary middle class people like most of us happen to be. The National Association of Scholars has just released a report on the disappearance of Western Civilization courses from elite colleges and universities in the last 45 years. They have been replaced by World History courses which usually portray western civilization as disruptive and oppressive. Perhaps that's part of the reason why so many of our younger posters take so many of the geratest achievements of western civilization for granted and seem more than happy to toss some of them into the ash can. Pat is about 7 years older than I, I believe, and I can see that she, like me, really feels she's watching the eclipse of civilization as we know it. Ouch.

Yup. To quote a GI icon of the Right, "This, I guess, is the anti-Industrial Revolution." Only guess whose side was responsible for it?

OTH, the guys I'm seeing in power and big business who are shooting off their mouths like that are not Hank Rearden --- they're Ms. Rand's villains, to the life.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Right. And if they're blind, deaf, and quadriplegic, they should be given the job of evaluating the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch. Brownie points to whoever recognizes the book that metaphor came from, or even the author.

The Hungry Caterpillar?

Originally Posted by Odin

Most poor unemployed people would be happy with ANY job. Quit using that disgusting talking point.

Sadly, I know people who worked their butts off for years and lost their jobs. Since they're in their 40s and 50s they can't get hired. A few who did get hired make less than half of what they made before. People who've worked since age 16, who worked while in college (if they went). Yeah, sure, they're lazy. They love having the gov't give them money. They adore the shame.

This isn't 1990 and the "welfare queen" crap. But some people still like to buy into it.

Originally Posted by annla899

Sadly, I know people who worked their butts off for years and lost their jobs. Since they're in their 40s and 50s they can't get hired. A few who did get hired make less than half of what they made before. People who've worked since age 16, who worked while in college (if they went). Yeah, sure, they're lazy. They love having the gov't give them money. They adore the shame.

This isn't 1990 and the "welfare queen" crap. But some people still like to buy into it.

I know. This fantasy of millions of able-bodied profiteers seems to have endless appeal. Perhaps it is because the better off people can't stand to admit that their success is largely due to luck.

Originally Posted by The Rani

The King of the Ignore List presents himself as an authority on prejudice. Will wonders never cease.

You are wildly abusing the word "prejudice." Its definition is "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason."

My unfavorable opinion of you is based upon knowledge, thought, *and* reason. It is not prejudice. It is simple dislike. I have given plenty of thought to this judgment over a considerable period of time, and with considerable evidence.

I would imagine that also applies to several other people who have interacted with you on this forum for a number of years.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

I get the impression, you would be willing to hand over all your wealth to the government to keep your social security check and your medicare and sustain your superior sense of goodness.

I know the Badger is perfectly able to deal with this nonsense, but you just dealt a low blow. Shame on you. She didn't deserve that.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

So, in other words, you think you're entitled our investment earnings and you have a right to financially tap into our individual abilities to use our natural instincts, individual talents and superior minds to make more money.

The government regulates investments and should get a portion of earnings from investments to pay the regulators who keep the system functional and honest. (Note, I am not saying that this works perfectly in today's America.)

And, again, you do not make all of your money through your own efforts. You do owe a certain amount to maintain public services without which you do not have a business in the first place.