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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 70







Post#1726 at 05-31-2011 10:53 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
One method is demeaning and perverse personal attacks such as this one:


Generally followed by cheers from the peanut gallery. Only this time the gang mentality was squashed by at least six different posters, of all political stripes. I find that to be encouraging.
I could see it as "demeaning and perverse personal" but that's because of the subject matter offered - over, and over, and over again, and again, and again...

However, the mechanism of JPT's alleged ostracizing of someone on an internet forum or the instilling of coerciveness through groupthink remains pretty much still in doubt.

And, just to note, if one is going to 'flash,' one should expect the occassional "pee-yew," which by the way has some interesting linguistic history -

1) It's a shortened term for puteo, which is Latin for "to stink, be redolent, or smell bad."

2) It's actually spelled "piu," but is often pronounced as "pee-yew". It's root is the Indo-European word "pu," meaning to rot or decay. A lot of other languages use this root word and have the same general meaning.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1727 at 05-31-2011 10:54 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
Idiot America.... Hmmm....I wunder what I could do with this Idiot America thingy.
go to a t-party perhaps?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1728 at 05-31-2011 11:03 AM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
I'm a New Deal/New Frontier Democrat and a Kennanite in foreign policy who thinks that other nations generally have to take care of themselves. OK?
I think your going to have to make a choice between being the historian and the bureaucrat. I see more bureaucrat than I see historian. In short, you have little credability with me because you're still the bureaucrat in my eyes. A bureaucrat who is connected to political party. A bureaucrat who worked for political campaigns for one particular party. I understand this is all legal. But, in my personal opinion it's not right.
Last edited by Exile 67'; 05-31-2011 at 12:08 PM.







Post#1729 at 05-31-2011 11:19 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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I'm tired of all this bickering, and that's all this thread has turned into. I'm closing the door to your room until you stop. Please PM me when you do.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#1730 at 05-31-2011 11:23 AM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
I'm tired of all this bickering, and that's all this thread has turned into. I'm closing the door to your room until you stop. Please PM me when you do.
Amen.

Sadly I think this a reflection of the world out there. So with that, can we close the door on our government too? Someone please PM me when this 4T is over!
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#1731 at 05-31-2011 11:26 AM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
I think your going to have to make a choice between being the historian and the bureaucrat. I see more bureaucrat than I see historian. In short, you have little credability with me because you're still the bureaucrat in my eyes. A bureaucrat who is connected to political party. A bureaucrat who worked for political campaigns for one particular party. IMO, this may be legal and all. But, it certainly isn't right.
The Naval War College is an accredited academic institution, granted the right to award M.A. degrees by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges. As such, its faculty enjoy, and exercise, complete academic freedom. Each of the last three Presidents has been subjected to violent, published criticism by faculty members, and no one has ever been reprimanded or disciplined for the exercise of his first amendment rights, including a colleague who advocated the conviction of President Clinton. No one has ever tried to control the historical material I have published while I have been here, or anyone else's.

The Hatch Act allows federal employees to participate in a full range of political activity on their own time. If you don't like it perhaps you should write letters to your representatives.







Post#1732 at 05-31-2011 11:36 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
I think your going to have to make a choice between being the historian and the bureaucrat. I see more bureaucrat than I see historian. In short, you have little credability with me because you're still the bureaucrat in my eyes. A bureaucrat who is connected to political party. A bureaucrat who worked for political campaigns for one particular party. IMO, this may be legal and all. But, it certainly isn't right.
I can't help but picture Michelangelo being told by the paint mix guy at the local Home Depot that his choice of colors really sucks.

Or, Pauly Shore telling Marlon Brando that his Godfather protrayal just didn't do it for him.

Or, Sarah Palin telling Einstein to smartin up.

Or, .... well, I guess even you can get the picture.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1733 at 05-31-2011 12:04 PM by annla899 [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,860]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
The Naval War College is an accredited academic institution, granted the right to award M.A. degrees by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges. As such, its faculty enjoy, and exercise, complete academic freedom. Each of the last three Presidents has been subjected to violent, published criticism by faculty members, and no one has ever been reprimanded or disciplined for the exercise of his first amendment rights, including a colleague who advocated the conviction of President Clinton. No one has ever tried to control the historical material I have published while I have been here, or anyone else's.

The Hatch Act allows federal employees to participate in a full range of political activity on their own time. If you don't like it perhaps you should write letters to your representatives.

Gee, David, I didn't know academics implemented policy. Exile just taught me something new.







Post#1734 at 05-31-2011 12:41 PM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
The Naval War College is an accredited academic institution, granted the right to award M.A. degrees by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges. As such, its faculty enjoy, and exercise, complete academic freedom. Each of the last three Presidents has been subjected to violent, published criticism by faculty members, and no one has ever been reprimanded or disciplined for the exercise of his first amendment rights, including a colleague who advocated the conviction of President Clinton. No one has ever tried to control the historical material I have published while I have been here, or anyone else's.

The Hatch Act allows federal employees to participate in a full range of political activity on their own time. If you don't like it perhaps you should write letters to your representatives.
I'm not judging you there. I'm judging you here. And what I see here is a self proclaimed bureaucrat who happens to be a history profressor.







Post#1735 at 05-31-2011 12:45 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
I think your going to have to make a choice between being the historian and the bureaucrat. I see more bureaucrat than I see historian. In short, you have little credability with me because you're still the bureaucrat in my eyes. A bureaucrat who is connected to political party. A bureaucrat who worked for political campaigns for one particular party. I understand this is all legal. But, in my personal opinion it's not right.
So you think historians can't have political opinions?
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1736 at 05-31-2011 01:11 PM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
I can't help but picture Michelangelo being told by the paint mix guy at the local Home Depot that his choice of colors really sucks.

Or, Pauly Shore telling Marlon Brando that his Godfather protrayal just didn't do it for him.

Or, Sarah Palin telling Einstein to smartin up.

Or, .... well, I guess even you can get the picture.
If he was a Republican, I'd feel the same way. Dude, if the government tanks, Republican or Democrat isn't going to matter to me. They're both fired as far as I'm concerned. Idiot America as you say and where you belong doesn't get this. The whole center of America hates both of them. You know what happens then, the fascists get there way, the socialists/commies get there way and the Tea Party gets its way. Now, you're to much of a hand me down wimp to towards or embrace the Tea Party. So, at that point you're gone as far as I'm concerned.







Post#1737 at 05-31-2011 01:30 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
So you think historians can't have political opinions?
I know this question was meant for Exile but I would like to add my two cents. Historians are more than entitled to their opinions. It's when historians vision themselves as the only historian with the truth that is bothersome to me. Even in the face of another historian's on the ground experience, some historians have a tendency to demean and discount their point of view.

There is a difference in a historian that merely repeats handed down history and one who has been to the other side of history. The one who has been there and experienced history, be it on the ground in the war zones or interviewing the oppressed, has another valid opinion that deserves to be heard, not discounted as being a far Left nut.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#1738 at 05-31-2011 01:33 PM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
So you think historians can't have political opinions?
Historians can have political opinions.







Post#1739 at 05-31-2011 01:44 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
If that is supposed to be Amy, she would and has. So has Deb, and so have plenty of others via PM, apparently.
Many others have simply left the forums, such as GB left the thread here.
But yes, it is a part of our political scene, and until we get past it we won't move forward. Which is why I find it encouraging that the outcome was a bit different this time around.
You have a good point. Perhaps this is the needed chaos before the calm. In some ways, I am glad that the sludge is being brought up from the bottom of the pond for us all to see and discuss. There has been an elephant in the living room here that has been glossed over for way too long.

Having a husband who has been in the mental health field for numerous years has taught me to address it instead of suppress it.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#1740 at 05-31-2011 01:54 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
You have a good point. Perhaps this is the needed chaos before the calm. In some ways, I am glad that the sludge is being brought up from the bottom of the pond for us all to see and discuss. There has been an elephant in the living room here that has been glossed over for way too long.

Having a husband who has been in the mental health field for numerous years has taught me to address it instead of suppress it.
People are angry, it's that simple. I admit it, I am extremely angry with the direction the country is going right now, and am even more angry at the folks that keep on telling me that the solution is more 3T Reaganite crap. I grew up in the world of rural poverty created by crap and I will have no more of it.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1741 at 05-31-2011 01:55 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Hmmm, you were the one who told me I had a very limited audience here. Not that I care about your opinion but just thought I would remind you.
You are in no danger of being ostracized and you are certainly free to post links to whatever articles you like by the authors you prefer. Other people can choose to read them or skip over them.

But those of us who disagree with them (or with you) are also free to express a contrasting point of view.







Post#1742 at 05-31-2011 01:56 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
Hmmm....I think ASD65 would disagree with you on this.
Which part?







Post#1743 at 05-31-2011 02:03 PM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
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Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
Which part?
The ostracizing part. It wasn't very long ago. You should remember it.







Post#1744 at 05-31-2011 02:07 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
If he was a Republican, I'd feel the same way. Dude, if the government tanks, Republican or Democrat isn't going to matter to me. They're both fired as far as I'm concerned. Idiot America as you say and where you belong doesn't get this. The whole center of America hates both of them. You know what happens then, the fascists get there way, the socialists/commies get there way and the Tea Party gets its way. Now, you're to much of a hand me down wimp to towards or embrace the Tea Party. So, at that point you're gone as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sorry but not only the middle but the majority of Americans disagree with you -



The majority of Americans want two of the three primary functions of the federal government - big insurance program and a huge army. I would guess once they see the consequences of not extending the debt ceiling, they will also want that third function of consistent debt payer.

These three primary functions make up over 4/5's of what the federal government does and what our federal taxes pay for. The vast majority of Americans either wants hands-off or some relative minor tinkering. If you, on the other hand, want to dismantle these things, or call it socialistic, fascist, or red pinko communism destroying freedom fries - well, then, it is you who are in a tiny minority.

Perhaps you should consider leaving because whether the GOP regroups and again pulls the wool over your eyes that we can pay for these things and lower our taxes at the same time, the magic ponies are eventually going to go away.

Your taxes will be going up. Imagine, all the way up from 35% to 38%, oh, the horror!

But, poor baby, the real killer for you is that the federal deficit problem will be solved, the Medicare/ Medicaid/ SS shortfalls will be solved, we'll still have a more-than-sufficient standing army, and we will continue to pay our debts.


What will you then have to whine about?

Don't worry, with all the attention that can then be turned to the real problem of getting the economy going again and unemployment/under-employment/wage stagnation, I'm sure you'll find some commie-facist-hippy-thingee to whine about.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1745 at 05-31-2011 02:10 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
People are angry, it's that simple. I admit it, I am extremely angry with the direction the country is going right now, and am even more angry at the folks that keep on telling me that the solution is more 3T Reaganite crap. I grew up in the world of rural poverty created by crap and I will have no more of it.
Good post.

Two thumbs up!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1746 at 05-31-2011 02:11 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
The ostracizing part. It wasn't very long ago. You should remember it.
OK, I think I know what you're talking about. All right. Point taken.







Post#1747 at 05-31-2011 02:16 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
....

But those of us who disagree with them (or with you) are also free to express a contrasting point of view.
What?! Speak for yourself, CoS, I would never think about being so rude!

I'm sooooo fluster by even the possibility - I think I'll have to lay off the Earl Grey at tea this afternoon and go sip some Matricaria chamomilla!!! Perhaps retire early.

"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#1748 at 05-31-2011 02:27 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
What?! Speak for yourself, CoS, I would never think about being so rude!

I'm sooooo fluster by even the possibility - I think I'll have to lay off the Earl Grey at tea this afternoon and go sip some Matricaria chamomilla!!! Perhaps retire early.

No worries. I plan to continue defending liberalism. With gusto.

But maybe change tactics and targets , just a tad.







Post#1749 at 05-31-2011 02:34 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
You are in no danger of being ostracized and you are certainly free to post links to whatever articles you like by the authors you prefer. Other people can choose to read them or skip over them.

But those of us who disagree with them (or with you) are also free to express a contrasting point of view.
Contrasting points of view are important and crucial. The BS, not so much.
Last edited by Deb C; 05-31-2011 at 02:38 PM.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#1750 at 05-31-2011 03:22 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
No worries. I plan to continue defending liberalism. With gusto.

But maybe change tactics and targets , just a tad.
Admittedly, I begin to border on rudeness () when I post some really good data and linked insights highly relevant to the thread's topic, -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...506#post373506

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...391#post373391

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...288#post373288

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...749#post373749

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...844#post373844


and yet it is ignored as the thread gets swamped by the aftershocks of some failed ancient romance -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...674#post373674


or by someone espousing 'wisdom' from his personal microcosm (I might have said head up his ass, but that would be rude) -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...805#post373805

or someone who's contribution is a faux sermon summarily trashing everyone who he disagrees with as the sole purveyors of trashing (or something like that, who the hell knows for sure?) -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...045#post374045

I can provide insightful data/commentary or I can do the bullshit - and frankly, with either, better than most - its part of my day job, after all.

Its a question of what the group wants. And no, don't anyone post or PM me with your explicit requests for cease-and-desist; I mean implicitly from the quality and focus of the posts that you provide.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
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