Originally Posted by The Rani

One method is demeaning and perverse personal attacks such as this one:


Generally followed by cheers from the peanut gallery. Only this time the gang mentality was squashed by at least six different posters, of all political stripes. I find that to be encouraging.

I could see it as "demeaning and perverse personal" but that's because of the subject matter offered - over, and over, and over again, and again, and again...

However, the mechanism of JPT's alleged ostracizing of someone on an internet forum or the instilling of coerciveness through groupthink remains pretty much still in doubt.

And, just to note, if one is going to 'flash,' one should expect the occassional "pee-yew," which by the way has some interesting linguistic history -

1) It's a shortened term for puteo, which is Latin for "to stink, be redolent, or smell bad."

2) It's actually spelled "piu," but is often pronounced as "pee-yew". It's root is the Indo-European word "pu," meaning to rot or decay. A lot of other languages use this root word and have the same general meaning.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

Idiot America.... Hmmm....I wunder what I could do with this Idiot America thingy.

go to a t-party perhaps?

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

I'm a New Deal/New Frontier Democrat and a Kennanite in foreign policy who thinks that other nations generally have to take care of themselves. OK?

I think your going to have to make a choice between being the historian and the bureaucrat. I see more bureaucrat than I see historian. In short, you have little credability with me because you're still the bureaucrat in my eyes. A bureaucrat who is connected to political party. A bureaucrat who worked for political campaigns for one particular party. I understand this is all legal. But, in my personal opinion it's not right.

I'm tired of all this bickering, and that's all this thread has turned into. I'm closing the door to your room until you stop. Please PM me when you do.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

I'm tired of all this bickering, and that's all this thread has turned into. I'm closing the door to your room until you stop. Please PM me when you do.

Amen.

Sadly I think this a reflection of the world out there. So with that, can we close the door on our government too? Someone please PM me when this 4T is over!

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

I think your going to have to make a choice between being the historian and the bureaucrat. I see more bureaucrat than I see historian. In short, you have little credability with me because you're still the bureaucrat in my eyes. A bureaucrat who is connected to political party. A bureaucrat who worked for political campaigns for one particular party. IMO, this may be legal and all. But, it certainly isn't right.

The Naval War College is an accredited academic institution, granted the right to award M.A. degrees by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges. As such, its faculty enjoy, and exercise, complete academic freedom. Each of the last three Presidents has been subjected to violent, published criticism by faculty members, and no one has ever been reprimanded or disciplined for the exercise of his first amendment rights, including a colleague who advocated the conviction of President Clinton. No one has ever tried to control the historical material I have published while I have been here, or anyone else's.

The Hatch Act allows federal employees to participate in a full range of political activity on their own time. If you don't like it perhaps you should write letters to your representatives.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

I think your going to have to make a choice between being the historian and the bureaucrat. I see more bureaucrat than I see historian. In short, you have little credability with me because you're still the bureaucrat in my eyes. A bureaucrat who is connected to political party. A bureaucrat who worked for political campaigns for one particular party. IMO, this may be legal and all. But, it certainly isn't right.

I can't help but picture Michelangelo being told by the paint mix guy at the local Home Depot that his choice of colors really sucks.

Or, Pauly Shore telling Marlon Brando that his Godfather protrayal just didn't do it for him.

Or, Sarah Palin telling Einstein to smartin up.

Or, .... well, I guess even you can get the picture.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

The Naval War College is an accredited academic institution, granted the right to award M.A. degrees by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges. As such, its faculty enjoy, and exercise, complete academic freedom. Each of the last three Presidents has been subjected to violent, published criticism by faculty members, and no one has ever been reprimanded or disciplined for the exercise of his first amendment rights, including a colleague who advocated the conviction of President Clinton. No one has ever tried to control the historical material I have published while I have been here, or anyone else's.

The Hatch Act allows federal employees to participate in a full range of political activity on their own time. If you don't like it perhaps you should write letters to your representatives.

Gee, David, I didn't know academics implemented policy. Exile just taught me something new.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

The Naval War College is an accredited academic institution, granted the right to award M.A. degrees by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges. As such, its faculty enjoy, and exercise, complete academic freedom. Each of the last three Presidents has been subjected to violent, published criticism by faculty members, and no one has ever been reprimanded or disciplined for the exercise of his first amendment rights, including a colleague who advocated the conviction of President Clinton. No one has ever tried to control the historical material I have published while I have been here, or anyone else's.

The Hatch Act allows federal employees to participate in a full range of political activity on their own time. If you don't like it perhaps you should write letters to your representatives.

I'm not judging you there. I'm judging you here. And what I see here is a self proclaimed bureaucrat who happens to be a history profressor.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

I think your going to have to make a choice between being the historian and the bureaucrat. I see more bureaucrat than I see historian. In short, you have little credability with me because you're still the bureaucrat in my eyes. A bureaucrat who is connected to political party. A bureaucrat who worked for political campaigns for one particular party. I understand this is all legal. But, in my personal opinion it's not right.

So you think historians can't have political opinions?

Originally Posted by playwrite

I can't help but picture Michelangelo being told by the paint mix guy at the local Home Depot that his choice of colors really sucks.

Or, Pauly Shore telling Marlon Brando that his Godfather protrayal just didn't do it for him.

Or, Sarah Palin telling Einstein to smartin up.

Or, .... well, I guess even you can get the picture.

If he was a Republican, I'd feel the same way. Dude, if the government tanks, Republican or Democrat isn't going to matter to me. They're both fired as far as I'm concerned. Idiot America as you say and where you belong doesn't get this. The whole center of America hates both of them. You know what happens then, the fascists get there way, the socialists/commies get there way and the Tea Party gets its way. Now, you're to much of a hand me down wimp to towards or embrace the Tea Party. So, at that point you're gone as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by Odin

So you think historians can't have political opinions?

I know this question was meant for Exile but I would like to add my two cents. Historians are more than entitled to their opinions. It's when historians vision themselves as the only historian with the truth that is bothersome to me. Even in the face of another historian's on the ground experience, some historians have a tendency to demean and discount their point of view.

There is a difference in a historian that merely repeats handed down history and one who has been to the other side of history. The one who has been there and experienced history, be it on the ground in the war zones or interviewing the oppressed, has another valid opinion that deserves to be heard, not discounted as being a far Left nut.

Originally Posted by Odin

So you think historians can't have political opinions?

Historians can have political opinions.

Originally Posted by The Rani

If that is supposed to be Amy, she would and has. So has Deb, and so have plenty of others via PM, apparently.
Many others have simply left the forums, such as GB left the thread here.
But yes, it is a part of our political scene, and until we get past it we won't move forward. Which is why I find it encouraging that the outcome was a bit different this time around.

You have a good point. Perhaps this is the needed chaos before the calm. In some ways, I am glad that the sludge is being brought up from the bottom of the pond for us all to see and discuss. There has been an elephant in the living room here that has been glossed over for way too long.

Having a husband who has been in the mental health field for numerous years has taught me to address it instead of suppress it.

Originally Posted by Deb C

You have a good point. Perhaps this is the needed chaos before the calm. In some ways, I am glad that the sludge is being brought up from the bottom of the pond for us all to see and discuss. There has been an elephant in the living room here that has been glossed over for way too long.

Having a husband who has been in the mental health field for numerous years has taught me to address it instead of suppress it.

People are angry, it's that simple. I admit it, I am extremely angry with the direction the country is going right now, and am even more angry at the folks that keep on telling me that the solution is more 3T Reaganite crap. I grew up in the world of rural poverty created by crap and I will have no more of it.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Hmmm, you were the one who told me I had a very limited audience here. Not that I care about your opinion but just thought I would remind you.

You are in no danger of being ostracized and you are certainly free to post links to whatever articles you like by the authors you prefer. Other people can choose to read them or skip over them.

But those of us who disagree with them (or with you) are also free to express a contrasting point of view.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

Hmmm....I think ASD65 would disagree with you on this.

Which part?

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Which part?

The ostracizing part. It wasn't very long ago. You should remember it.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

If he was a Republican, I'd feel the same way. Dude, if the government tanks, Republican or Democrat isn't going to matter to me. They're both fired as far as I'm concerned. Idiot America as you say and where you belong doesn't get this. The whole center of America hates both of them. You know what happens then, the fascists get there way, the socialists/commies get there way and the Tea Party gets its way. Now, you're to much of a hand me down wimp to towards or embrace the Tea Party. So, at that point you're gone as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sorry but not only the middle but the majority of Americans disagree with you -



The majority of Americans want two of the three primary functions of the federal government - big insurance program and a huge army. I would guess once they see the consequences of not extending the debt ceiling, they will also want that third function of consistent debt payer.

These three primary functions make up over 4/5's of what the federal government does and what our federal taxes pay for. The vast majority of Americans either wants hands-off or some relative minor tinkering. If you, on the other hand, want to dismantle these things, or call it socialistic, fascist, or red pinko communism destroying freedom fries - well, then, it is you who are in a tiny minority.

Perhaps you should consider leaving because whether the GOP regroups and again pulls the wool over your eyes that we can pay for these things and lower our taxes at the same time, the magic ponies are eventually going to go away.

Your taxes will be going up. Imagine, all the way up from 35% to 38%, oh, the horror!

But, poor baby, the real killer for you is that the federal deficit problem will be solved, the Medicare/ Medicaid/ SS shortfalls will be solved, we'll still have a more-than-sufficient standing army, and we will continue to pay our debts.


What will you then have to whine about?

Don't worry, with all the attention that can then be turned to the real problem of getting the economy going again and unemployment/under-employment/wage stagnation, I'm sure you'll find some commie-facist-hippy-thingee to whine about.

Originally Posted by Odin

People are angry, it's that simple. I admit it, I am extremely angry with the direction the country is going right now, and am even more angry at the folks that keep on telling me that the solution is more 3T Reaganite crap. I grew up in the world of rural poverty created by crap and I will have no more of it.

Good post.

Two thumbs up!

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

The ostracizing part. It wasn't very long ago. You should remember it.

OK, I think I know what you're talking about. All right. Point taken.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

....

But those of us who disagree with them (or with you) are also free to express a contrasting point of view.

What?! Speak for yourself, CoS, I would never think about being so rude!

I'm sooooo fluster by even the possibility - I think I'll have to lay off the Earl Grey at tea this afternoon and go sip some Matricaria chamomilla!!! Perhaps retire early.

Originally Posted by playwrite

What?! Speak for yourself, CoS, I would never think about being so rude!

I'm sooooo fluster by even the possibility - I think I'll have to lay off the Earl Grey at tea this afternoon and go sip some Matricaria chamomilla!!! Perhaps retire early.

No worries. I plan to continue defending liberalism. With gusto.

But maybe change tactics and targets , just a tad.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

You are in no danger of being ostracized and you are certainly free to post links to whatever articles you like by the authors you prefer. Other people can choose to read them or skip over them.

But those of us who disagree with them (or with you) are also free to express a contrasting point of view.

Contrasting points of view are important and crucial. The BS, not so much.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

No worries. I plan to continue defending liberalism. With gusto.

But maybe change tactics and targets , just a tad.

Admittedly, I begin to border on rudeness () when I post some really good data and linked insights highly relevant to the thread's topic, -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...506#post373506

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...391#post373391

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...288#post373288

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...749#post373749

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...844#post373844


and yet it is ignored as the thread gets swamped by the aftershocks of some failed ancient romance -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...674#post373674


or by someone espousing 'wisdom' from his personal microcosm (I might have said head up his ass, but that would be rude) -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...805#post373805

or someone who's contribution is a faux sermon summarily trashing everyone who he disagrees with as the sole purveyors of trashing (or something like that, who the hell knows for sure?) -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...045#post374045

I can provide insightful data/commentary or I can do the bullshit - and frankly, with either, better than most - its part of my day job, after all.

It’s a question of what the group wants. And no, don't anyone post or PM me with your explicit requests for cease-and-desist; I mean implicitly from the quality and focus of the posts that you provide.