Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 83







Post#2051 at 06-16-2011 10:17 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
06-16-2011, 10:17 PM #2051
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Good! Those stupid subsidies were costing more than they gained, both in dollars and - less forgivably - in petroleum! Of which one of the heavier uses is fertilizer for the corn that's being grown to make ethanol to save petroleum....

Actually is pork to buy votes in the Corn Belt states and we all know it, which may mean the recession actually gives the politicians a valid reason to do what they want but couldn't afford to politically.

You think?

Anyway, hooray for the Senate!
Its a long story, but I have done a lot of work in the past few years with the water planning in Georgia. Its been quite an education, but one of the things I have learned is that agricultural irrigation in Georgia is one of the main drivers of our state's water problems. Down in south Georgia on the lower Flint river, there is a huge underground aquifer called the Floridian aquifer. It is a fantastic resource. 300 ft of saturated soil with incredible rates of delivery. Unlike some of the aquifers in the midwest, the Floridian aquifer is not fossil water. Even in the worst droughts, the water table falls no more than 20 feet and quickly recharges when it starts to rain again. The sandy soil in SW Georgia when fully fertilized and irrigated is almost like growing hydroponically.

The only problem is that these underground aquifers exchange readily with the surface waters in the Flint and Chattahoochee rivers. So what seems like an inexhaustible resource to the farmers actually pulls down the surface waters. Its creating havoc with the flow across the Florida line into the Apalachicola River which is formed at the Florida line by the confluence of the Chattahoochee and the Flint. Reservoirs up and down the Chattahoochee are being pulled down to keep the flows up into Florida because the farmers are irrigating like crazy on the Flint. The Flint is one of the longest free flowing rivers in the country and has no major reservoirs. Its a wild west tragedy of the commons.

What does this have to do with ethanol subsidies? Well these farmers have to choose what to plant. Different plants require different amounts of water and are more drought tolerant. Guess what crop is the most profitable right now? You got it. Its corn because 40% of the corn crop is taken to make ethanol. And guess which crop uses the most water? Yep, you got it again. Its corn. Instead of more drought tolerant peanuts and cotton, these farmers plant corn and pump water like there is no tomorrow because that part of the state is in a drought. And they are putting it on the most water needy crop they can grow all because of the ethanol subsidy.

And one more thing. We keep out cheaper ethanol from Brazil to protect this already subsidized industry. The consumer pays through the nose coming and going.

We can't afford such foolishness as a state or as a country.

James50
Last edited by James50; 06-16-2011 at 10:39 PM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#2052 at 06-16-2011 10:42 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
06-16-2011, 10:42 PM #2052
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
I believe that many of the industrial firms that shut down, such as steel mills, were still making profits--but not enough profit to satisfy the conglomerate that had bought them or their shareholders. So they closed. That is a huge problem--we have no sense of national responsibility, which is very strong in Germany and, I think, Japan. In those countries everyone knows industry and exports are critical.

James, when you say exports are doing well, isn't that all relative? I mean, they may be on an upward trend, but my impression is that they have been trending downward for a LONG time.

(This is my third attempt at posting this post. I kept getting the message that "the token has expired" and told to go back and reload. When that happens, you lose the post completely. It happened three times even though I followed instructions! This software sucks.]
IMO the fact that multinational corporations have loyalty to no country is a major part of the current crisis of capitalism. They will do anything to maximize profits and minimizing "labor costs" via outsourcing and automation.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#2053 at 06-16-2011 10:47 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
06-16-2011, 10:47 PM #2053
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Actually is pork to buy votes in the Corn Belt states and we all know it, which may mean the recession actually gives the politicians a valid reason to do what they want but couldn't afford to politically.
I know this very well. I once had a local farmer in my home town screaming expletives at me because I got into a rant criticizing ethanol while at the bar there.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#2054 at 06-16-2011 10:59 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
06-16-2011, 10:59 PM #2054
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
IMO the fact that multinational corporations have loyalty to no country is a major part of the current crisis of capitalism. They will do anything to maximize profits and minimizing "labor costs" via outsourcing and automation.
Odin...

Quote Originally Posted by Network
Mr. Jenson: You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it! Is that clear? You think you've merely stopped a business deal. That is not the case! The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back! It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity! It is ecological balance! You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels. It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today! And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and YOU... WILL... ATONE! Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale? You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT&T, and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state, Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that... perfect world... in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality. One vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock. All necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel.
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#2055 at 06-16-2011 11:05 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
06-16-2011, 11:05 PM #2055
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Odin...



~Chas'88
That is WAY too damn funny!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#2056 at 06-16-2011 11:14 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
06-16-2011, 11:14 PM #2056
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
That is WAY too damn funny!
Yeah, but sometimes I think that it's really how Corporate-types really think.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#2057 at 06-17-2011 12:05 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
06-17-2011, 12:05 AM #2057
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post

Mr. Jenson: You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it! Is that clear? You think you've merely stopped a business deal. That is not the case! The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back! It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity! It is ecological balance! You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels. It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today! And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and YOU... WILL... ATONE! Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale? You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT&T, and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state, Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that... perfect world... in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality. One vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock. All necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel.
is WAY too damn funny!
But alas that is the reality -- with the real powers being Exxon-Mobil, Royal Dutch Shell, Lukoil, Aramco, Wells Fargo Bank, Barclay's, Procter&Gamble, Deutsche Bank, Lever Brothers, McDonald's, Wal-Mart, K-Mart/Sears, Koch Industries, DuPont, Lockheed-Martin-Marietta, MiG Corporation, General Motors, Ford, Fiat, Daimler, Halliburton, Disney, Warner Brothers, CBS-Paramount, "News" Corporation, Bin Laden Construction, Bechtel... the entertainment is pap fit only for the intellect of toddlers on all 700 cable channels, and what the most promising kids learn at Berkeley, Harvard, the Sorbonne, Moscow State, Waseda ... it's the same thing. Sex, booze, mass low culture, bureaucratic power, and material comfort for themselves and frustrations and fear to be imposed on everyone else... it's the same objective of an ambitious kid in Baltimore or Bangalore. A fool unfit to be anywhere near the Leadership except as a servant, can be happy while toeing the line. A fool can have nationalism, religion, and sentimentality because it all threatens nothing. They can have Marx, Jefferson, Gandhi, or Khomeini as their icons, but those now mean nothing because people aren't encouraged to ask any questions. Those smart people who take those old realities, culture, and philosophies seriously... can jump off a tall building as a meaningless protest against the meaninglessness of life -- the consummate fools who take Aristotle, Confucius, Buddha, Aquinas, Maimonides, Descartes, Locke, Rousseau, Kant, or Freud seriously. The system can sell pornography and prudery alike and profit from both.

There is no history, there is no culture other than self-indulgence, no morality other than every man for himself and loyalty to crude power. Do I make myself clear?
Last edited by pbrower2a; 06-17-2011 at 04:56 AM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#2058 at 06-17-2011 08:54 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
06-17-2011, 08:54 AM #2058
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Further reading this morning about the ethanol vote (73-27) revealed that at the same time they voted to end the subsidy, they also voted to end the tariff on imported ethanol. This is real progress. Georgia's two senators split on the vote but the one that voted against (Chambliss) said he just wanted it to be extended to the end of the year. He wanted to give the farmers a few months to adjust.

Predictably, Franken and Klobuchar (MN), Grassley and Harkin (IA), Durbin and Kirk (IL), Levin and Stabenow (MI), Moran and Roberts (KS) all voted no.

Perhaps there is hope for real deficit reduction.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#2059 at 06-17-2011 09:07 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
06-17-2011, 09:07 AM #2059
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

I liked Peggy Noonan's comments this morning entitled "Republicans Return to Reality" after the doubts expressed at the Republican presidential debates about our current military adventures especially in Afghanistan.

We are as a nation, on paper, almost bankrupt. Or bankrupt, depending on how you judge. Among the Republican candidates for president, there is a growing awareness that America does not have a foreign policy unless we have the money to pay for it. We do not have an army unless we can fund it. We do not have diplomacy and a diplomatic structure without money. We do not have alliances and friendships sealed by aid without money. We do not go forward and impress the nations with our values, might and leadership without money.

We cannot lead, or even be an example, without money. And we are out of it. Therefore, reordering our financial life and seeing to our financial strength is the single most constructive thing we can do to create and maintain a sound U.S. foreign policy. If we want to be safe in the world, we must be sturdy at home.

That is why those inclined to take an unfriendly or competitive view toward us increasingly see us as a paper tiger. Because they hold our paper.

The problem with Afghanistan, and Iraq for that matter, is not only that after 10 years our efforts have turned out of be—polite word—inconclusive. We are spending money we don't have for aims we cannot even articulate.
Come home America!

James50
Last edited by James50; 06-17-2011 at 09:13 AM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#2060 at 06-17-2011 09:16 AM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
06-17-2011, 09:16 AM #2060
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

We are not bankrupt, or even insolvent. The world's financial markets are more than ready to lend us everything we need right now at very low interest rates. We have long-term fiscal problems, and we need higher taxes [sic!], but the situation is not desperate. People are claiming that it is in order to destroy government in this country.







Post#2061 at 06-17-2011 09:26 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
06-17-2011, 09:26 AM #2061
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
The world's financial markets are more than ready to lend us everything we need right now at very low interest rates.
We will find out the truth of this statement in a few weeks when QE2 ends. For the past 6 months, the Fed has been buying 70% of the Treasury debt.

Tom Friedman, master of the metaphor, has talked about the fall from a 50 story building. For the first 49 stories, you can think you are flying.

We will be able to borrow all the money we want until we can't.

James50
Last edited by James50; 06-17-2011 at 09:29 AM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#2062 at 06-17-2011 09:32 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
06-17-2011, 09:32 AM #2062
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
People are claiming that it is in order to destroy government in this country.
The recent posts on the "state institutions shutting down" thread are ample evidence that no one needs to destroy government because it is self-destructing on its own. From California to Minnesota to Illinois to New York, the promises are coming due and cannot be paid.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#2063 at 06-17-2011 09:35 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
06-17-2011, 09:35 AM #2063
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
The recent posts on the "state institutions shutting down" thread are ample evidence that no one needs to destroy government because it is self-destructing on its own. From California to Minnesota to Illinois to New York, the promises are coming due and cannot be paid.

James50
In Minnesota we can pay them just fine, but the Republicans in the legislature won't let us. They would rather that disabled people died on the streets.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#2064 at 06-17-2011 09:39 AM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
---
06-17-2011, 09:39 AM #2064
Join Date
Sep 2002
Location
Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots
Posts
2,106

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
For the first 49 stories, you can think you are flying.
Sure, if you have your eyes shut.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didn´t replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#2065 at 06-17-2011 09:39 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
06-17-2011, 09:39 AM #2065
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
In Minnesota we can pay them just fine, but the Republicans in the legislature won't let us. They would rather that disabled people died on the streets.
Your Manichean view of the legislative process is overly emotional. Just because they cannot agree on a budget does not mean they want people to die in the streets. It means there is more promised than the taxpayers are willing to pay for. They will have to cut somewhere. I doubt the outcome will affect the disabled community all that much. Wait and see what happens.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#2066 at 06-17-2011 09:48 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
06-17-2011, 09:48 AM #2066
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

About time

Could it be that the 4th estate may be getting a clue? Well, at least one voice -

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...077943,00.html

How Today's Conservatism Lost Touch with Reality
By Fareed Zakaria


"Conservatism is true." That's what George Will told me when I interviewed him as an eager student many years ago. His formulation might have been a touch arrogant, but Will's basic point was intelligent. Conservatism, he explained, was rooted in reality. Unlike the abstract theories of Marxism and socialism, it started not from an imagined society but from the world as it actually exists. From Aristotle to Edmund Burke, the greatest conservative thinkers have said that to change societies, one must understand them, accept them as they are and help them evolve.

Watching this election campaign, one wonders what has happened to that tradition. Conservatives now espouse ideas drawn from abstract principles with little regard to the realities of America's present or past. This is a tragedy, because conservatism has an important role to play in modernizing the U.S.
(See "The Heart of Conservative Values: Not Where It Used to Be?")

Consider the debates over the economy. The Republican prescription is to cut taxes and slash government spending — then things will bounce back. Now, I would like to see lower rates in the context of tax simplification and reform, but what is the evidence that tax cuts are the best path to revive the U.S. economy? Taxes — federal and state combined — as a percentage of GDP are at their lowest level since 1950. The U.S. is among the lowest taxed of the big industrial economies. So the case that America is grinding to a halt because of high taxation is not based on facts but is simply a theoretical assertion. The rich countries that are in the best shape right now, with strong growth and low unemployment, are ones like Germany and Denmark, neither one characterized by low taxes.

Many Republican businessmen have told me that the Obama Administration is the most hostile to business in 50 years. Really? More than that of Richard Nixon, who presided over tax rates that reached 70%, regulations that spanned whole industries, and who actually instituted price and wage controls?

In fact, right now any discussion of government involvement in the economy — even to build vital infrastructure — is impossible because it is a cardinal tenet of the new conservatism that such involvement is always and forever bad. Meanwhile, across the globe, the world's fastest-growing economy, China, has managed to use government involvement to create growth and jobs for three decades. From Singapore to South Korea to Germany to Canada, evidence abounds that some strategic actions by the government can act as catalysts for free-market growth.
(See a dozen Republicans who could be the next President.)

Of course, American history suggests that as well. In the 1950s, '60s and '70s, the U.S. government made massive investments in science and technology, in state universities and in infant industries. It built infrastructure that was the envy of the rest of the world. Those investments triggered two generations of economic growth and put the U.S. on top of the world of technology and innovation.

But that history has been forgotten. When considering health care, for example, Republicans confidently assert that their ideas will lower costs, when we simply do not have much evidence for this. What we do know is that of the world's richest countries, the U.S. has by far the greatest involvement of free markets and the private sector in health care. It also consumes the largest share of GDP, with no significant gains in health on any measurable outcome. We need more market mechanisms to cut medical costs, but Republicans don't bother to study existing health care systems anywhere else in the world. They resemble the old Marxists, who refused to look around at actual experience. "I know it works in practice," the old saw goes, "but does it work in theory?"
(See "When GOP Presidential Candidates Skip, They Quickly Stumble.")

Conservatives used to be the ones with heads firmly based in reality. Their reforms were powerful because they used the market, streamlined government and empowered individuals. Their effects were large-scale and important: think of the reform of the tax code in the 1980s, for example, which was spearheaded by conservatives. Today conservatives shy away from the sensible ideas of the Bowles-Simpson commission on deficit reduction because those ideas are too deeply rooted in, well, reality. Does anyone think we are really going to get federal spending to the level it was at under Calvin Coolidge, as Paul Ryan's plan assumes? Does anyone think we will deport 11 million people?

We need conservative ideas to modernize the U.S. economy and reform American government. But what we have instead are policies that don't reform but just cut and starve government — a strategy that pays little attention to history or best practices from around the world and is based instead on a theory. It turns out that conservatives are the woolly-headed professors after all.
Let's see if this might actually ignite some actual journalism in mass media world or if it Fareed just gets told to get back to mimicking Faux News.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#2067 at 06-17-2011 09:56 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
06-17-2011, 09:56 AM #2067
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Let's see if this might actually ignite some actual journalism in mass media world or if it Fareed just gets told to get back to mimicking Faux News.
This is nothing new. I watch GPS almost every Sunday. He pretty much says stuff like this all the time.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#2068 at 06-17-2011 10:55 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
06-17-2011, 10:55 AM #2068
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Your Manichean view of the legislative process is overly emotional. Just because they cannot agree on a budget does not mean they want people to die in the streets. It means there is more promised than the taxpayers are willing to pay for. They will have to cut somewhere. I doubt the outcome will affect the disabled community all that much. Wait and see what happens.

James50
This "wait and see" is a tad more sophisticated than "let them eat cake" so I was wondering if we can flesh it out a little (without emotion, of course).

What exactly are your milestones? Will simple statistics of the number of people below the poverty level, on food stamps, homeless, dying on the streets suffice? Or, do we need to accompany the numbers with some glossy photos or do you really want something akin to snuff videos?

Or is this more a personal economic issue for you? Perhaps number of people trying to steal from you or just getting over the wall of your gated community before security clubs them? Or, does it really have to go so far as the guillotine, again? If the latter, just keep in mind you'll only have just a few milli-seconds for your enlightenment - or to get all emotional about it - before your out-of-body experience.

"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#2069 at 06-17-2011 11:01 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
---
06-17-2011, 11:01 AM #2069
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA US
Posts
3,605

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
This "wait and see" is a tad more sophisticated than "let them eat cake" so I was wondering if we can flesh it out a little (without emotion, of course).
I mean wait and see for a few weeks until they pass the budget. Can't the left ever make an argument without becoming hysterical?

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#2070 at 06-17-2011 11:43 AM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
---
06-17-2011, 11:43 AM #2070
Join Date
Dec 2010
Posts
1,232

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Good! Those stupid subsidies were costing more than they gained, both in dollars and - less forgivably - in petroleum! Of which one of the heavier uses is fertilizer for the corn that's being grown to make ethanol to save petroleum....

Actually is pork to buy votes in the Corn Belt states and we all know it, which may mean the recession actually gives the politicians a valid reason to do what they want but couldn't afford to politically.

You think?

Anyway, hooray for the Senate!
What about sugar?







Post#2071 at 06-17-2011 12:09 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
06-17-2011, 12:09 PM #2071
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
The recent posts on the "state institutions shutting down" thread are ample evidence that no one needs to destroy government because it is self-destructing on its own.
On its own? James, I suggest you review the video I posted earlier. Governments are running into budget problems because of the political power of the rich that has increasingly depressed the tax base for thirty years. This is not a natural phenomenon. It's a contrived, deliberate phenomenon. The problems we face, the real problems we face, have nothing to do with the deficit, and attempting to address the deficit -- particularly through cutting spending -- will prevent us from from dealing with the real problems.

Can't the left ever make an argument without becoming hysterical?
It's not hysteria, it's RAGE -- and it's fully deserved.
Last edited by Brian Rush; 06-17-2011 at 12:13 PM.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#2072 at 06-17-2011 12:40 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
---
06-17-2011, 12:40 PM #2072
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort
Posts
14,092

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
The recent posts on the "state institutions shutting down" thread are ample evidence that no one needs to destroy government because it is self-destructing on its own. From California to Minnesota to Illinois to New York, the promises are coming due and cannot be paid.

James50
It is not self-destructing; it is being murdered by a corporatist mentality that values profit over the public interest.







Post#2073 at 06-17-2011 12:42 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
---
06-17-2011, 12:42 PM #2073
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort
Posts
14,092

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Your Manichean view of the legislative process is overly emotional. Just because they cannot agree on a budget does not mean they want people to die in the streets. It means there is more promised than the taxpayers are willing to pay for. They will have to cut somewhere. I doubt the outcome will affect the disabled community all that much. Wait and see what happens.

James50
"The taxpayers" are willing to pay more for human services, if they are asked to do so.







Post#2074 at 06-17-2011 12:44 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
---
06-17-2011, 12:44 PM #2074
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort
Posts
14,092

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
I mean wait and see for a few weeks until they pass the budget. Can't the left ever make an argument without becoming hysterical?

James50
James, I am watching as the GOP-controlled legislature in my state guts public education in favor of private school vouchers and tax cuts for businesses. Pardon me if I get a little pissed off.







Post#2075 at 06-17-2011 01:17 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
---
06-17-2011, 01:17 PM #2075
Join Date
Jul 2002
Location
Arlington, VA 1956
Posts
9,209

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Your Manichean view of the legislative process is overly emotional. Just because they cannot agree on a budget does not mean they want people to die in the streets. It means there is more promised than the taxpayers are willing to pay for. They will have to cut somewhere. I doubt the outcome will affect the disabled community all that much. Wait and see what happens.

James50
The cuts are always on the most vulnerable, however. And if you are barely getting by, a small cut can be devastating.

I actually didn't mind having a pay freeze, because I can absorb it without much damage to my financial situation. However, loss of insurance or a car breakdown or ending of a child care subsidy can completely throw a family or individual who is on the edge into distress and crisis.

And meanwhile, those in the top 1 percent aren't being asked to help contribute anything to the budget shortfall. In my book, that's plain wrong.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008
-----------------------------------------