Originally Posted by Brian Rush

There's more than one kind of racism. Classically, racism is a belief that one race is superior to another or that members of one race have certain disagreeable qualities (low intelligence, propensity for crime, laziness, etc.) The attitude Odin described doesn't fit that mold. It's not a belief that black people are inferior, but merely a recognition that Obama is black and a fear that he may support his own kind over the rest of the people.

One may reject classical racist ideas about racial superiority or racial traits, and still think in terms of one's own interest as a member of a particular race. Those white people who think that way are in a pickle these days due to changing demographics. Non-Hispanic white people will within a few decades be a minority of the U.S. population. This has in the past always been a white people's country. When we have enacted changes guaranteeing civil rights for non-whites, this has always arisen from the consciences of white people. White people have always held the power, whether they chose to use it selfishly and cruelly or magnanimously and honorably. That's what's changing.

A true racist would believe that Obama is unqualified to be president because he's black. That I think is a view held only by a very few people. But there are a lot more people who are uncomfortable with the idea of a black president, not because he would necessarily be worse than a white one, but because the fact that a black president could even be elected is a sign that this is no longer a white people's country.

Thanks Brian, you said it better than I could have. There are a LOT of otherwise good decent people who are insistent that an America that is not majority White isn't "really" America anymore. They are not racists in the "strict" sense (your "classical racism", what I would call White Supremacism), but yet still think non-whites are not "real Americans".

Bill Moyers: The great divide today is a radical lack of empathy

a great interview of Moyers by Garrison Keillor. A extract:

"The rich and the very powerful suffer today from the characteristics of being sociopaths, that is a radical deprived of empathy" ... "When you are radically deprived of empathy and you want to pay the least amount of taxes instead of supporting the great consortium that is embodied in the preamble to the Constitution - "We the people in order to" - when you want to not carry your fair share, you begin to deprive everybody else of the things that made my life.

I grew up poor. My father had a 4th grade education. He never made over 100 a month up until his last few years when he joined a union, and I have his last pay stub - $96 and some odd cents after taxes. But I went to good public schools in Marshall, Texas - by the way, they were an antidote to any fundamentalist preaching we were getting in town. I drove on a public highway to a public university, the University of Texas. I stopped in public parks. I used public facilities. And most important of all, I had access to public libraries. I never walked through that library at the University of Texas without thinking "All of these were written for me by people who didn't know me.

This whole university was built by people who didn't know me and whom I will never know, because they believed in us. Us. The preamble to the Constitution.

And they invested their money in public institutions. And this gap between the rich and poor today is starving the public sector despite our enormous debts. It's retreating from the public life of the nation. So that the rich will be behind their gated communities and the rest of America in the next 20 or 30 years, if we don't reverse this trend, will be like areas of India, where they're just left... you know, the doctrine of the right is the survival of the fittest. Every man for himself. And if that happens, that means that society becomes a jungle.

Civilization is but a thin veneer of civility stretched across the passions of the human heart. And we have to work to keep that civilization. When people withdraw their consent and withdraw their support from it, then you're right close to a reversion to a pre-civilization society. And that's what troubles me about the elites today who suffer from, I think, the worst of all religious sins, which is malignant narcissism."

A very Silent interview.

Originally Posted by Odin

Bill Moyers: The great divide today is a radical lack of empathy

a great interview of Moyers by Garrison Keillor. A extract:



A very Silent interview.

If it weren't for the public library system, Raymond Carver would not have become a writer. I recall hearing him read his work in the early 80s. He was born to a lower middle-class family in Washington State. His spoke about how his parents were not readers at all and had few if any books in the house. He would go to the public library as a child and listen to the librarian read stories aloud and fell in love with books and stories.

He, too, was a Silent.

Originally Posted by Odin

Bill Moyers: The great divide today is a radical lack of empathy
...

A very Silent interview.

Interestingly, on the subject of empathy, our pastor is increasingly talking up the "social gospel" in last couple years, especially in the last few months. The sermons are more and more populated with reminders of our duties to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and heal the sick, that sort of thing -- what most would consider "liberal" ideals today, at least when espoused by government. And this is small town Texas, a place that is 70% Republican. I do think there are signs that this "lack of empathy" is starting to give way as more and more people are starting to feel "there but for the grace of God go I", so to speak.

Originally Posted by Weave

Obama was hardly tested in the campaign and received kid glove treatment from an adoring media. We now know almost 3 years in the hard light of Presidency he is by far out of his league. He is more interested in NCAA brackets and playing golf than providing any real leadership.

Don't trivialize Hillary Clinton.

Golf is a wonderful means of dealing with stress. Interest in NCAA brackets? Very Thirteenth.

His approval rating sank during the aftermath of the Debt Ceiling debate... and it has apparently come back some.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ..._tracking_poll

46% approval is back in Reagan 1983/Clinton 1995 territory, and he isn't campaigning yet.

I'm not going to trust any national poll for a couple of days for the simple reason that there will be some phone lines down from about Charlotte northward... we're going to see how differently this President handles a natural disaster than did Dubya. Unlike the case with Hurricane Katrina, the afflicted area of this storm contains 140 electoral votes that this President won in 2012.

Thus explains his 38% approval rating by Gallup. http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Ga...-Approval.aspx

In matchups with all the GOP candidates he is essentially tied with most of them, even Ron Paul. That would be like GWB in 2004 being tied with Kucinich or Al Sharpton. http://www.gallup.com/poll/149114/Ob...mann-Paul.aspx

I watch statewide polls of approval, and I notice that although the approval ratings for the President last week in Iowa and Wisconsin were in the mid-40s last week, the President was decidedly ahead of all Republicans in both states:

http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot....nsin-iowa.html

Gore barely won both states and Kerry barely lost Iowa and barely won Wisconsin in close elections. Don't bet anything that you can't afford to lose on any GOP challenger -- yet.

The "corporate sellout" that you and the other lefties disparage but continue to support is sinking like the Titanic.....and the rats are starting to flee the ship....better get on a lifeboat quick.....

The President is not a corporate sellout; so far he has done the best that he can under the circumstances. I dislike the Debt Ceiling deal, but I understand why the President did what he did -- when dealing with blackmailers you try to get them off your back as quickly as possible and try to keep them away as long as possible or at least as necessary. It's the Tea Party Cult that I despise... and the more that I see of it the more I dislike it. If that totalitarian clique takes over I have little to live for. Hard labor at starvation wages is not good for long-term survival.

Originally Posted by ziggyX65

Interestingly, on the subject of empathy, our pastor is increasingly talking up the "social gospel" in last couple years, especially in the last few months. The sermons are more and more populated with reminders of our duties to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and heal the sick, that sort of thing -- what most would consider "liberal" ideals today, at least when espoused by government. And this is small town Texas, a place that is 70% Republican. I do think there are signs that this "lack of empathy" is starting to give way as more and more people are starting to feel "there but for the grace of God go I", so to speak.

people know the 3T game is up and have realized that no man is an island. If we want to survive we must pull together and put what is good for everyone over our individual needs.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

There's more than one kind of racism. Classically, racism is a belief that one race is superior to another or that members of one race have certain disagreeable qualities (low intelligence, propensity for crime, laziness, etc.) The attitude Odin described doesn't fit that mold. It's not a belief that black people are inferior, but merely a recognition that Obama is black and a fear that he may support his own kind over the rest of the people.

One may reject classical racist ideas about racial superiority or racial traits, and still think in terms of one's own interest as a member of a particular race. Those white people who think that way are in a pickle these days due to changing demographics. Non-Hispanic white people will within a few decades be a minority of the U.S. population. This has in the past always been a white people's country. When we have enacted changes guaranteeing civil rights for non-whites, this has always arisen from the consciences of white people. White people have always held the power, whether they chose to use it selfishly and cruelly or magnanimously and honorably. That's what's changing.

A true racist would believe that Obama is unqualified to be president because he's black. That I think is a view held only by a very few people. But there are a lot more people who are uncomfortable with the idea of a black president, not because he would necessarily be worse than a white one, but because the fact that a black president could even be elected is a sign that this is no longer a white people's country.

Here we go again. It's funny how even though you say all the right liberal rhetoric, underneath it all is still screwy logic...

Obama is white. And though that may seem counterintuitive, let me explain why. His mother is white and he was raised by his maternal grandparents (which means culturally he is white as well). At some point in American history, as well as the way the law works in many Latin countries, that meant that you were white. In New Orleans (where I was born) if your father was white, you probably belonged to a middle class of Creole people who were more wealthy, powerful and educated than the white Cajun population who both the Creoles and the white elite looked down upon.

All this to say race in the US is not a zero sum game. And though Obama may be helping to exorcise some demons, the pathology lies on all sides. Some white people see Obama as black and fear him because of it. But some white people don't see him as black and support him because of it.

The good news is mid to late wave Xers and beyond are least likely to be inflicted with this disease so it's really just a matter of the old geezers (liberal Boomers included) dieing off.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Odin

people know the 3T game is up and have realized that no man is an island. If we want to survive we must pull together and put what is good for everyone over our individual needs.

It seems like as time goes on, we all know more and more people who are losing their jobs, homes and health insurance through no real fault of their own, and we all feel more vulnerable because of it.

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

Here we go again. It's funny how even though you say all the right liberal rhetoric, underneath it all is still screwy logic...

Obama is white. And though that may seem counterintuitive, let me explain why. His mother is white and he was raised by his maternal grandparents (which means culturally he is white as well). At some point in American history, as well as the way the law works in many Latin countries, that meant that you were white. In New Orleans (where I was born) if your father was white, you probably belonged to a middle class of Creole people who were more wealthy, powerful and educated than the white Cajun population who both the Creoles and the white elite looked down upon.

All this to say race in the US is not a zero sum game. And though Obama may be helping to exorcise some demons, the pathology lies on both sides. Some white people see Obama as black and fear him because of it. But some white people don't see him as black and support him because of it.

The good news is mid to late wave Xers and beyond are least likely to be inflicted with this disease so it's really just a matter of the old geezers (liberal Boomers included) dieing off.

Cheers.

The racists still follow the 1-drop rule so to them Obama is a "n***er" no matter that his mom was wite and no matter his growing up in "stereotypically white" cultural environment.

Originally Posted by Odin

The racists still follow the 1-drop rule so to them Obama is a "n***er" no matter that his mom was wite and no matter his growing up in "stereotypically white" cultural environment.

But if this were only racists doing this, why do liberals also consider Obama a black president even if he is just as much "white" as "black" in terms of ancestry? If your statement had validity it would be only the racists calling him black, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by ziggyX65

But if this were only racists doing this, why do liberals also consider Obama a black president even if he is just as much "white" as "black" in terms of ancestry? If your statement had validity it would be only the racists calling him black, wouldn't it?

DOH, Good point! *Facepalm*

re: Keillor/Moyers

GI executives had frequently risen through the ranks and, having "been there" -- the shop floor, the mail room, the sales route in some God-awful place, could relate to the common man. To some extent that is also true of early-wave Silent executives. That is not true of Boomers who have been able to see the world of work, at least in the entity in which they are executives, through rose-colored glasses. Such is in part the result of the bureaucratization of Corporate America; such is in part the necessity that executives feel nothing for any people other than their peers -- fellow executives.

Giant corporations do not pay people well for acting with empathy; they pay for measured cruelty. They need people so dependent upon their "lifestyles" that they will cheat or sell out their subordinates so that they can draw rich compensation that supports high-priced marques of cars, McMansions, trophy wives, and college education for the kids of their first marriage who will fit the new tradition of the MBA as part of the fast track for a parasitic and predatory Good Life.

Working people are catching on. They see the executive elite as pharaohs, sultans, or feudal lords -- if not crime bosses. The biggest issue of this 4T, at least on domestic issues, will likely be economic inequality that creates disparities of indulgence and suffering. Poverty has been a Third Rail of American politics since Ronald Reagan became President. Americans will be wise to contest bureaucratic elites and their chosen politicians when the contest is not so dangerous. If we dither, then we might face a monstrosity of an economic order -- one at once repressive, hierarchical, and inegalitarian. Don't fool yourself: America is already hierarchical and inegalitarian. Leaders devoid of empathy can turn to the death squad, the torture chamber, and the labor camp for anyone who shows any sign of dissent. This applies to college professors, school teachers, and even preachers.

Our economic elites are preparing their kids to be their successors.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Poverty has been a Third Rail of American politics since Ronald Reagan became President.

Some here will be astonished how it could possibly be, but Reagan -- this board's favorite whipping boy -- is still pretty popular even among "Middle Americans" today who think today's increased income inequality and the Tea Party pretty much suck. I don't think I'd try to rally them with the constant reminder that everything magically, suddenly started going to Hell on January 20, 1981.

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

Here we go again. It's funny how even though you say all the right liberal rhetoric, underneath it all is still screwy logic...

Obama is white. And though that may seem counterintuitive, let me explain why. His mother is white and he was raised by his maternal grandparents

First of all, what race he is matters a damn ONLY to those who think in racial terms, which I do not. All I was doing was pointing out the way that some people view the election of a black president, which in their minds (and the mind is the only place that race even exists, so that's all that matters) is what happened.

And though Obama may be helping to exorcise some demons, the pathology lies on all sides.

I get the distinct impression that in your mind, the pathology lies in everyone except you. I have yet to observe you being polite or reasonable to anyone here. You treat all other posters as if they were diseased, if not criminal.

Are you here for any reason other than to piss people off? Because that's all you seem any good at doing.

Originally Posted by ziggyX65

Some here will be astonished how it could possibly be, but Reagan -- this board's favorite whipping boy -- is still pretty popular even among "Middle Americans" today who think today's increased income inequality and the Tea Party pretty much suck. I don't think I'd try to rally them with the constant reminder that everything magically, suddenly started going to Hell on January 20, 1981.

In my poor rural family growing up "Reagan" was almost a swear word. I grew up with my mom going on about how much she loved Carter and how much she hated Reagan. You heard right, my Mom is a JONESER that LIKES CARTER.

Originally Posted by ziggyX65

Some here will be astonished how it could possibly be, but Reagan -- this board's favorite whipping boy -- is still pretty popular even among "Middle Americans" today who think today's increased income inequality and the Tea Party pretty much suck. I don't think I'd try to rally them with the constant reminder that everything magically, suddenly started going to Hell on January 20, 1981.

Poverty that Americans neglected with little harm to themselves has become far more menacing -- and intractible -- because of trends that began with baby steps under Ronald Reagan and with elephant-sized paces under Dubya.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Poverty that Americans neglected with little harm to themselves has become far more menacing -- and intractible -- because of trends that began with baby steps under Ronald Reagan and with elephant-sized paces under Dubya.

I'm not disagreeing with the premise that a return to increasing Social Darwinism really began to take hold in the Reagan years. I'm merely saying that a lot of people -- even those who may have been screwed long-term by those economic policies -- still like the guy, so I think we're better served talking about how things suck *now*, not that we can point to a date 30 years ago that started it.

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

Here we go again. It's funny how even though you say all the right liberal rhetoric, underneath it all is still screwy logic...

Obama is white. And though that may seem counterintuitive, let me explain why. His mother is white and he was raised by his maternal grandparents (which means culturally he is white as well). At some point in American history, as well as the way the law works in many Latin countries, that meant that you were white. In New Orleans (where I was born) if your father was white, you probably belonged to a middle class of Creole people who were more wealthy, powerful and educated than the white Cajun population who both the Creoles and the white elite looked down upon.

All this to say race in the US is not a zero sum game. And though Obama may be helping to exorcise some demons, the pathology lies on all sides. Some white people see Obama as black and fear him because of it. But some white people don't see him as black and support him because of it.

The good news is mid to late wave Xers and beyond are least likely to be inflicted with this disease so it's really just a matter of the old geezers (liberal Boomers included) dieing off.

Cheers.

A white person, I think it's up to the individual of mixed-race heritage to decide what race he or she is. Obama considers himself black. Yes, he as raised by a white mother and by white grandparents, but the larger society in the US treated him individually as black, mainly based on his appearance. I've read some articles about his mother as well as about his upbringing, both of which were complex to say the least. Some of his childhood spent in Indonesia, the rest spent in Hawaii. His early professional life spent in Chicago which is possibly the most segregated city in the country in terms of real estate (I live in Chicago). You can bet that in Chicago and in most other places he was treated as a black person. Maybe this is my Boomer-ness showing, but I think at this point the individual gets to decide his or her own identity if he or she is racially mixed. Obama called himself a "mutt."

I agree with you about later gens being less afflicted by this disease. I saw it to an extent in Xers and see it now to a much greater extent by Millies.

Originally Posted by Odin

The racists still follow the 1-drop rule so to them Obama is a "n***er" no matter that his mom was wite and no matter his growing up in "stereotypically white" cultural environment.

Living where I do, most of the black people I know grew up like Leave It to Beaver. There is a huge black middle class that the media likes to pretend doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by ziggyX65

Interestingly, on the subject of empathy, our pastor is increasingly talking up the "social gospel" in last couple years, especially in the last few months. The sermons are more and more populated with reminders of our duties to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and heal the sick, that sort of thing -- what most would consider "liberal" ideals today, at least when espoused by government. And this is small town Texas, a place that is 70% Republican. I do think there are signs that this "lack of empathy" is starting to give way as more and more people are starting to feel "there but for the grace of God go I", so to speak.

This is good news. And pun intended.

Originally Posted by Odin

In my poor rural family growing up "Reagan" was almost a swear word. I grew up with my mom going on about how much she loved Carter and how much she hated Reagan. You heard right, my Mom is a JONESER that LIKES CARTER.

I'm a Disco wave boomer who liked Carter. When Reagan was elected while I was in college, friends of mine had a Wake for the United States. As I mentioned, Reagan's economic policies had a very direct negative effect on me. Taxing my scholarship, lowering the maximum income by which college students could receive financial aid and increased payroll taxes (since in my 20s I had no investments), decreasing the grace period before starting to pay off student loans from 9 months to 6 months. Overall, Reagan increased my tax burden when I could little afford it and made it more difficult for me and made it easier for the rich.

There was no self-interested reason for me to support Reagan.

Originally Posted by annla899

This is good news. And pun intended.

I think so. When religious leaders in a very conservative place start using the phrase "social justice" in his sermons -- as I've heard a few times -- attitudes are starting to change. The stereotype is that most folks down on their luck were probably either just lazy or were impoverished and/or homeless and.or unemployed because of self-inflicted behavior (i.e. criminal past, drug/alcohol abuse). I think we're seeing more and more examples of people who did all the "right" things (even as these conservative small-town Texans would see it) and are still losing ground to unemployment, falling wages and loss of health insurance. So this message of "social justice" and of preaching the social gospel is a lot more accepted, and even embraced, than I think it would have been here a few years ago.. People are seeing it's a LOT more than just the lazy and the reckless who are being taken down by the Social Darwinist policies of a corporate-state today.

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

Here we go again. It's funny how even though you say all the right liberal rhetoric, underneath it all is still screwy logic...

Obama is white. And though that may seem counterintuitive, let me explain why. His mother is white and he was raised by his maternal grandparents

First of all, what race he is matters a damn ONLY to those who think in racial terms, which I do not. All I was doing was pointing out the way that some people view the election of a black president, which in their minds (and the mind is the only place that race even exists, so that's all that matters) is what happened.

Yes, but the only "mind" you have access to is your own which is why it behooves you to take responsibility for what you say.

Why not start off by labeling Obama accurately (as much as that is possible) instead of deferring to those other people's racialism as justification for perpetuating what you know to be as wrong?

Also please take note of the rest of the post and the main point

race in the US is not a zero sum game.

which is intended to make us think. (Thank you ziggyX65 and Odin for getting it.)

Cheers.

Originally Posted by annla899

Living where I do, most of the black people I know grew up like Leave It to Beaver. There is a huge black middle class that the media likes to pretend doesn't exist.

That is very true.

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

Yes, but the only "mind" you have access to is your own

What, nobody else out there can talk? That's news to me.

Why not start off by labeling Obama accurately

I have done so. You have muddied the waters for the purpose of being insulting, and for no other purpose that I can tell.

As for "race is not a zero-sum game" being designed to make people think, it's nothing I haven't thought about in the years before you learned to talk, nor is it anything relevant to the current discussion. Everyone knows that Obama's father is African while his mother is white; everyone knows he grew up with his white grandparents; everyone knows he self-identifies as black despite this; and you should know that most people in this country think of him as black. It isn't that I didn't "get" something that is obvious to a half-blind mentally-impaired toddler. It's that I "get" all too well the kind of person I am dealing with: someone who uses every opportunity to insult, degrade, and abuse.

I am glad beyond expression that I don't know you in real life.