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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 151







Post#3751 at 09-12-2011 01:57 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
This Thread is about self-organization over Time within a System, correct?
That's what I'm trying to talk about. But the Powers of the Inter Nets have seen to it that we've gotten meta'd all the way back to finding a common basis for communication. It happens here; no worries.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#3752 at 09-12-2011 02:02 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
I don't see this thread as being anything but appropriate to it's Title, and our current "Real World" Environment. If there appears to be Entropy,(or if there actually is Entropy), it is only a natural part of the Process.

Prince

This Thread is about self-organization over Time within a System, correct?
Well put sir.

And if I may venture a little bit into the political, I say "go green" even in your ketchup ." :







Post#3753 at 09-12-2011 03:38 PM by summer in the fall [at joined Jul 2011 #posts 1,540]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Appropriate deletion.
The Rani, I thought I would die. I've never laughed so hard in my life.







Post#3754 at 09-12-2011 03:49 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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This is very surprising to me.

New CNN Poll: Perry on top when it comes to electability




Tampa, Florida (CNN) - Hours before the start of the first-ever CNN/Tea Party Republican debate, a new national survey indicates that Texas Gov. Rick Perry is maintaining his lead in the race for the GOP presidential nomination.
And according to a CNN/ORC International Poll, what appears to be Perry's greatest strength - the perception among Republicans that he is the candidate with the best chance to beat President Barack Obama in 2012 - seems to be exactly what the GOP rank and file are looking for.
Rick Perry? Really?

I saw on the news that this poll has Perry at 42%, Romney at 26% and the rest of the candidates getting 5 or 6 percent of the vote.

I wouldn't have guessed that one. To me, he is one of those extreme wingnuts. Generally extreme candidates don't win presidential elections. People tend to go for the more moderate ones. Either the Republicans are out of touch with how the rest of the people in this country feel or I'm the one who is out of touch with the pulse of my fellow Americans.







Post#3755 at 09-12-2011 09:50 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
This is very surprising to me.


Rick Perry? Really?

I saw on the news that this poll has Perry at 42%, Romney at 26% and the rest of the candidates getting 5 or 6 percent of the vote.

I wouldn't have guessed that one. To me, he is one of those extreme wingnuts. Generally extreme candidates don't win presidential elections. People tend to go for the more moderate ones. Either the Republicans are out of touch with how the rest of the people in this country feel or I'm the one who is out of touch with the pulse of my fellow Americans.
Everyone I know from Texas--not a large sample I must admit--is rather amazed he's going so far. I watched as much as I could this evening, which was not a lot, and Romney seemed to be scoring points effectively about Social Security. But Perry is bound to roll up the South. . .I just don't know. When you watch the Republican debate and try to imagine one of them debating Obama, it's quite mind-boggling. Not since 1964 have we had candidates in such alternative universes, I swear--not even Nixon and McGovern. (Of course there were no debates, 1964-72.)







Post#3756 at 09-12-2011 10:22 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Everyone I know from Texas--not a large sample I must admit--is rather amazed he's going so far. I watched as much as I could this evening, which was not a lot, and Romney seemed to be scoring points effectively about Social Security. But Perry is bound to roll up the South. . .I just don't know. When you watch the Republican debate and try to imagine one of them debating Obama, it's quite mind-boggling. Not since 1964 have we had candidates in such alternative universes, I swear--not even Nixon and McGovern. (Of course there were no debates, 1964-72.)
I watched the debate too. My main reaction to Perry was...He looks a little jaundice to me....Maybe it was just the lighting. Who knows. But I seriously don't understand this Perry thing. Of the two Texans, I'd have to say I liked Ron Paul better. Yes, he is unorthodox, but some of things he said did kind of make sense. Unlike Michelle Bachmann, who is unorthodox but doesn't make any sense. She just seems crazy to me. What the heck was the rant about vaccines all about? Kids get vaccines for a variety of diseases since they are born. She kept carrying on about how we are violating these poor young girls. How exactly is giving a child a shot violating them? To hear her talk, you would think we were tying them down and raping them.

The Pizza guy did okay too. For a pizza guy.

The main thing I took away from the debate is that the Republicans main purpose seems to be that they really want to repeal health care. They were all worked up over that issue.

The only thing that I agreed with Perry was when they were talking immigration. I just kept thinking, it's pretty easy for all these other candidates to criticize something when they really aren't dealing with the issue every day like Perry is. I live around these people. And from what I can see, they really aren't criminals. With the exception of being illegal, they basically behave like law abiding citizens. They are hard working and are just trying to make a better life for their children. I certainly don't mind having them as neighbors and my kids are friends with their kids. Who are good kids.

So that is just my little lay persons analysis. For what it's worth.







Post#3757 at 09-12-2011 11:07 PM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Everyone I know from Texas--not a large sample I must admit--is rather amazed he's going so far. I watched as much as I could this evening, which was not a lot, and Romney seemed to be scoring points effectively about Social Security. But Perry is bound to roll up the South. . .I just don't know. When you watch the Republican debate and try to imagine one of them debating Obama, it's quite mind-boggling. Not since 1964 have we had candidates in such alternative universes, I swear--not even Nixon and McGovern. (Of course there were no debates, 1964-72.)
Did you notice how Perry refused to answer Romney's question on if he would get ride of SS and medicare? And wow...Ron Paul's going to get assassinated by his GOP peers, due to his stance on the wars.
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#3758 at 09-12-2011 11:07 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by summer in the fall View Post
I disagree with the title.My, my, tsk-tsk, so Boomerish? should be My, my, tsk-tsk, so, so Boomerish? Has a certain symmetric rhyme to it. Yes, I know it's more tangentials. But you are a playwrite, are you not? Cheers.
Yes, yes, that is an improvement!

Not atypical - as noted, Xers are more than capable of out-booming the Boom in so many ways.

I forfeit the stage, my lady.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#3759 at 09-12-2011 11:11 PM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post

The Pizza guy did okay too. For a pizza guy.
The Pizza guy came of as the classic Republican; Not a Neo con or Tea Party member.

I hate to see the issues of vaccines under Perry as a president. What's he going to do, accidently create a genocide of all liberals and mildly apologize for it in a 2016 debate? LOL
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#3760 at 09-12-2011 11:11 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Am I imagining things or did several candidates tonight say that a 30yo without health insurance who needs regular medical attention should be left to die?
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#3761 at 09-12-2011 11:12 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by millennialX View Post
Did you notice how Perry refused to answer Romney's question on if he would get ride of SS and medicare? And wow...Ron Paul's going to get assassinated by his GOP peers, due to his stance on the wars.
I don't see how he can even be running on the Republican ticket. I would not consider him a Republican. Most of his views don't seem all that in line with the typical Republican stances. I think my favorite part was when Paul disputed Perry's claims on low taxes here in Texas and then commented that he didn't want to make him mad because he might raise his taxes more. Our real estate and sales taxes are extremely high. So we may not have state income tax, but the other taxes more than make up for what they don't collect in state taxes.







Post#3762 at 09-12-2011 11:14 PM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Am I imagining things or did several candidates tonight say that a 30yo without health insurance who needs regular medical attention should be left to die?
They said that. We are on our own. Or we should have the "right" to be on our own.
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#3763 at 09-12-2011 11:17 PM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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I'm a part of one of those facebook group pages and all of the democrats who watched the debate, were surprised by Ron Paul.
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#3764 at 09-12-2011 11:23 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by millennialX View Post
I'm a part of one of those facebook group pages and all of the democrats who watched the debate, were surprised by Ron Paul.
I would have loved to hear more from Ron Paul. I'm not saying that I agree with everything he has to say, but he is interesting. And some of things he had to say just seemed like common sense to me. Which is more than I can say for some of the others.







Post#3765 at 09-12-2011 11:33 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by millennialX View Post
The Pizza guy came of as the classic Republican; Not a Neo con or Tea Party member.

I hate to see the issues of vaccines under Perry as a president. What's he going to do, accidently create a genocide of all liberals and mildly apologize for it in a 2016 debate? LOL
I guess I'm just confused as to why this is even issue. It's mandated that my children must have certain vaccinations like mumps, measles, etc. in order to go to school. (It was the same in Illinois). This is just something that is routinely done. So what is the big deal about this one vaccine. If I had a daughter, I wouldn't have problem with her getting this vaccine. It just might save her life one day. I think it has to do with the fact that it is a sexual transmitted disease. But just because you give a kid a vaccination you aren't telling them to go out and have sex. When my boys get their booster shots, they never ask what they are getting shots for. I'm sure this vaccination is given to girls along with all their other booster shots and they aren't even aware of what they are getting a shot for. Michelle Bachman was just acting like a freak about the whole thing.







Post#3766 at 09-13-2011 08:17 AM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
I guess I'm just confused as to why this is even issue. It's mandated that my children must have certain vaccinations like mumps, measles, etc. in order to go to school. (It was the same in Illinois). This is just something that is routinely done. So what is the big deal about this one vaccine. If I had a daughter, I wouldn't have problem with her getting this vaccine. It just might save her life one day. I think it has to do with the fact that it is a sexual transmitted disease. But just because you give a kid a vaccination you aren't telling them to go out and have sex. When my boys get their booster shots, they never ask what they are getting shots for. I'm sure this vaccination is given to girls along with all their other booster shots and they aren't even aware of what they are getting a shot for. Michelle Bachman was just acting like a freak about the whole thing.
This might take us off the 2012 topic, but I believe many voters for the GOP, are anti- vaccine in general and don't want anything to be forced on them, especially on a federal level. There's a form that allows you to opt out of getting the vaccines due to religious reasons. As Chas pointed out a long time ago, here....it's Raggedy Ann and Andy season again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raggedy_Ann
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#3767 at 09-13-2011 09:00 AM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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I think MillennialX is right about a subgroup but I think the main problem is indeed that Republicans see the vaccinations as permission to have sex, which of course is absolutely ridiculous. But of course we all know no one in Texas has sex before marriage, right? Right?

I find that I can't watch these debates for more than 5-10 minutes at a time even though I've been obsessed with politics all my life. They are all so totally out of touch with reality that I flip it off in disgust. And the audiences make it even worse, applauding the most inane statements. By the way, is anyone ever going to mention that if Obamacare is repealed there will be no protection for folks with pre-existing conditions? And they are so carried away with ideology. . .those heroic young Americans who want to get along on their own, with no health insurance, turn out to be the most expensive cases we've got when they get sick!!!

Traditionally the out-of-power party has the first convention. If Perry is nominated perhaps Obama would replace Biden with Romney. . . .just kidding. . .I think. He could put him in charge of health care!

Paul is by far the closest to my own views on foreign policy, that's for sure. Did he continue to get big ovations for his foreign policy statements last night?







Post#3768 at 09-13-2011 09:17 AM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
I think MillennialX is right about a subgroup but I think the main problem is indeed that Republicans see the vaccinations as permission to have sex, which of course is absolutely ridiculous. But of course we all know no one in Texas has sex before marriage, right? Right?
LOL...If that is so, then we have a whole lot of children walking around in Texas that were products of immaculate conception.

I did watch the whole debate. I posted my quick review of it right after it was over, but to comment on it further, here is main take away. And what I think were the two most important and telling things that were discussed.

1. It is quite apparent that regardless of what Republican candidate you are talking about, the main thing the Republicans want to do is to beat Obama so they can repeal health care reform. They seem to blame health care reform for the reason for the national debt. Which is kind of silly considering we were in debt prior to Obama taking office and the two big things that really put us in the hole were the bail outs and the stimulus package (both which happened prior to the passage of health care reform.) So I'm not connecting the dots the same way these candidates and the audience seemed to be.

2. On the issue of Social Security. This was another big topic that was discussed. Ok, so they don't want to do anything to change the benefits for the people currently getting social security or those people getting ready to reach retirement age. (Protect the base here.) They talked a lot about making changes for the younger people. And if you are in your 20's or early 30's right now you do have several working years to adjust to the changes they want to make. So those folks may very well be alright. But one of the candidates (and I can't remember which one) mentioned something about the changes would only effect people in their early 50's and younger. So we are basically talking about GenX getting screwed here. IMO, the people in their early 50's and late 40's really don't have the working years ahead of them to adjust to whatever the new standards may be. It's obvious that SS does need to be fixed, but I don't think it's fair to put the burden on just one generation.







Post#3769 at 09-13-2011 09:43 AM by ziggyX65 [at Texas Hill Country joined Apr 2010 #posts 2,634]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
IMO, the people in their early 50's and late 40's really don't have the working years ahead of them to adjust to whatever the new standards may be. It's obvious that SS does need to be fixed, but I don't think it's fair to put the burden on just one generation.
I wish I couldn't say I've seen this coming for years. Jonesers and older Xers will crapped on the most one way or another, as usually seems to be the case.

I hate to say it because I hate the "kick the can" approach to governance, but our best outcome, at our age, would be for this can to be kicked for another 10 years. By that time, we'll be over 55 and much more likely to be exempted from sharing the sacrifice.
Last edited by ziggyX65; 09-13-2011 at 09:56 AM.







Post#3770 at 09-13-2011 10:02 AM by Wes84 [at joined Jun 2009 #posts 856]
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Based on what I've heard, I'm glad that I did not watch the debate. But I do have a few comments:

1. The anti-vaccine campaign is not particular to the political Right. There are a number of people on the Left that question the usage of vaccines for various reasons. But on the Left the concern is primarily with safety. The Right tends to argue against vaccines on a values basis.

I personally support the use of vaccines. While there may be some negative side-effects, in general vaccines have been a great benefit to humanity.

2. I'm glad Amy pointed out Perry's history of taxation.

3. Kaiser, don't bet against Obama teaming up with Romney (though it will likely not happen- I think).
Last edited by Wes84; 09-13-2011 at 10:09 AM.
Generation: Millennial (Gen Y)







Post#3771 at 09-13-2011 10:31 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by millennialX View Post
This might take us off the 2012 topic, but I believe many voters for the GOP, are anti- vaccine in general and don't want anything to be forced on them, especially on a federal level. There's a form that allows you to opt out of getting the vaccines due to religious reasons. As Chas pointed out a long time ago, here....it's Raggedy Ann and Andy season again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raggedy_Ann
Raggedy Ann and Andy dolls are symbols of the Anti-Vax crazies? NOOOOOOO!

*sobs*
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#3772 at 09-13-2011 10:31 AM by ziggyX65 [at Texas Hill Country joined Apr 2010 #posts 2,634]
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Comment I saw elsewhere concerning last night's debacl.... err, debate:

"Politicians should be forced to wear the patches of their corporate sponsors like NASCAR drivers."







Post#3773 at 09-13-2011 10:34 AM by ziggyX65 [at Texas Hill Country joined Apr 2010 #posts 2,634]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wes84 View Post
1. The anti-vaccine campaign is not particular to the political Right. There are a number of people on the Left that question the usage of vaccines for various reasons. But on the Left the concern is primarily with safety. The Right tends to argue against vaccines on a values basis.
And another fringe (something on both sides, but IMO more prevalent on the right) has the opposition based on conspiracy theories, that the vaccines are trojan horses for implanting chips into people for surveillance and/or mind control. (Think folks like Alex Jones here.)







Post#3774 at 09-13-2011 10:37 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
I think MillennialX is right about a subgroup but I think the main problem is indeed that Republicans see the vaccinations as permission to have sex, which of course is absolutely ridiculous. But of course we all know no one in Texas has sex before marriage, right? Right?
I have mentioned elsewhere that Boomers on both sides seem to be obsessed with sexual morality in a really sick way.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#3775 at 09-13-2011 11:56 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_959354.html

Ron Paul did not express any concern with the extreme inequality of economic result in America -- but did recognize that a lack of competition drives up medical costs.

Ron Paul actually made some sense, but some Americans seem to have about the same level of ethical value that one associates with Roman crowds who cheered as lions approached early Christians or political offenders and still thought themselves exemplars of community:

The answer may have struck a truly libertarian tone but it was clearly overshadowed by the members of the crowd who enthusiastically cheered the prospect of letting a man die rather than picking up the tab for his coverage.
The worst aspects of the 3T must themselves die if we are to create a better world for ourselves. As unpleasant and inconvenient as the 4T is it is necessary for clearing away the rottenness that accretes in the 2T and the 3T without challenges in those time. America must again become a safe and satisfying place for people of intelligence, learning, conscience, and culture, and not simply a place in which the rich get self-gratification at the expense of everyone else.

The Tea Party includes a bloodthirty lot that offers no second chance for failure by the non-rich... all of whom will be poor or at least completely dependent upon the caprice of the rich (which is poverty in itself).

The Romans thought the gladiatorial games and animal fights as examples of the sophistication of their community.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
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