Originally Posted by princeofcats67

This Thread is about self-organization over Time within a System, correct?

That's what I'm trying to talk about. But the Powers of the Inter Nets have seen to it that we've gotten meta'd all the way back to finding a common basis for communication. It happens here; no worries.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

I don't see this thread as being anything but appropriate to it's Title, and our current "Real World" Environment. If there appears to be Entropy,(or if there actually is Entropy), it is only a natural part of the Process.

Prince

This Thread is about self-organization over Time within a System, correct?

Well put sir.

And if I may venture a little bit into the political, I say "go green" even in your ketchup ." :

Originally Posted by The Rani

Appropriate deletion.

The Rani, I thought I would die. I've never laughed so hard in my life.

This is very surprising to me.

New CNN Poll: Perry on top when it comes to electability

By: CNN Political Unit

Tampa, Florida (CNN) - Hours before the start of the first-ever CNN/Tea Party Republican debate, a new national survey indicates that Texas Gov. Rick Perry is maintaining his lead in the race for the GOP presidential nomination.
And according to a CNN/ORC International Poll, what appears to be Perry's greatest strength - the perception among Republicans that he is the candidate with the best chance to beat President Barack Obama in 2012 - seems to be exactly what the GOP rank and file are looking for.

Rick Perry? Really?

I saw on the news that this poll has Perry at 42%, Romney at 26% and the rest of the candidates getting 5 or 6 percent of the vote.

I wouldn't have guessed that one. To me, he is one of those extreme wingnuts. Generally extreme candidates don't win presidential elections. People tend to go for the more moderate ones. Either the Republicans are out of touch with how the rest of the people in this country feel or I'm the one who is out of touch with the pulse of my fellow Americans.

Originally Posted by ASB65

This is very surprising to me.


Rick Perry? Really?

I saw on the news that this poll has Perry at 42%, Romney at 26% and the rest of the candidates getting 5 or 6 percent of the vote.

I wouldn't have guessed that one. To me, he is one of those extreme wingnuts. Generally extreme candidates don't win presidential elections. People tend to go for the more moderate ones. Either the Republicans are out of touch with how the rest of the people in this country feel or I'm the one who is out of touch with the pulse of my fellow Americans.

Everyone I know from Texas--not a large sample I must admit--is rather amazed he's going so far. I watched as much as I could this evening, which was not a lot, and Romney seemed to be scoring points effectively about Social Security. But Perry is bound to roll up the South. . .I just don't know. When you watch the Republican debate and try to imagine one of them debating Obama, it's quite mind-boggling. Not since 1964 have we had candidates in such alternative universes, I swear--not even Nixon and McGovern. (Of course there were no debates, 1964-72.)

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Everyone I know from Texas--not a large sample I must admit--is rather amazed he's going so far. I watched as much as I could this evening, which was not a lot, and Romney seemed to be scoring points effectively about Social Security. But Perry is bound to roll up the South. . .I just don't know. When you watch the Republican debate and try to imagine one of them debating Obama, it's quite mind-boggling. Not since 1964 have we had candidates in such alternative universes, I swear--not even Nixon and McGovern. (Of course there were no debates, 1964-72.)

I watched the debate too. My main reaction to Perry was...He looks a little jaundice to me....Maybe it was just the lighting. Who knows. But I seriously don't understand this Perry thing. Of the two Texans, I'd have to say I liked Ron Paul better. Yes, he is unorthodox, but some of things he said did kind of make sense. Unlike Michelle Bachmann, who is unorthodox but doesn't make any sense. She just seems crazy to me. What the heck was the rant about vaccines all about? Kids get vaccines for a variety of diseases since they are born. She kept carrying on about how we are violating these poor young girls. How exactly is giving a child a shot violating them? To hear her talk, you would think we were tying them down and raping them.

The Pizza guy did okay too. For a pizza guy.

The main thing I took away from the debate is that the Republicans main purpose seems to be that they really want to repeal health care. They were all worked up over that issue.

The only thing that I agreed with Perry was when they were talking immigration. I just kept thinking, it's pretty easy for all these other candidates to criticize something when they really aren't dealing with the issue every day like Perry is. I live around these people. And from what I can see, they really aren't criminals. With the exception of being illegal, they basically behave like law abiding citizens. They are hard working and are just trying to make a better life for their children. I certainly don't mind having them as neighbors and my kids are friends with their kids. Who are good kids.

So that is just my little lay persons analysis. For what it's worth.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Everyone I know from Texas--not a large sample I must admit--is rather amazed he's going so far. I watched as much as I could this evening, which was not a lot, and Romney seemed to be scoring points effectively about Social Security. But Perry is bound to roll up the South. . .I just don't know. When you watch the Republican debate and try to imagine one of them debating Obama, it's quite mind-boggling. Not since 1964 have we had candidates in such alternative universes, I swear--not even Nixon and McGovern. (Of course there were no debates, 1964-72.)

Did you notice how Perry refused to answer Romney's question on if he would get ride of SS and medicare? And wow...Ron Paul's going to get assassinated by his GOP peers, due to his stance on the wars.

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

I disagree with the title.My, my, tsk-tsk, so Boomerish? should be My, my, tsk-tsk, so, so Boomerish? Has a certain symmetric rhyme to it. Yes, I know it's more tangentials. But you are a playwrite, are you not? Cheers.

Yes, yes, that is an improvement!

Not atypical - as noted, Xers are more than capable of out-booming the Boom in so many ways.

I forfeit the stage, my lady.

Originally Posted by ASB65

The Pizza guy did okay too. For a pizza guy.

The Pizza guy came of as the classic Republican; Not a Neo con or Tea Party member.

I hate to see the issues of vaccines under Perry as a president. What's he going to do, accidently create a genocide of all liberals and mildly apologize for it in a 2016 debate? LOL

Am I imagining things or did several candidates tonight say that a 30yo without health insurance who needs regular medical attention should be left to die?

Originally Posted by millennialX

Did you notice how Perry refused to answer Romney's question on if he would get ride of SS and medicare? And wow...Ron Paul's going to get assassinated by his GOP peers, due to his stance on the wars.

I don't see how he can even be running on the Republican ticket. I would not consider him a Republican. Most of his views don't seem all that in line with the typical Republican stances. I think my favorite part was when Paul disputed Perry's claims on low taxes here in Texas and then commented that he didn't want to make him mad because he might raise his taxes more. Our real estate and sales taxes are extremely high. So we may not have state income tax, but the other taxes more than make up for what they don't collect in state taxes.

Originally Posted by Odin

Am I imagining things or did several candidates tonight say that a 30yo without health insurance who needs regular medical attention should be left to die?

They said that. We are on our own. Or we should have the "right" to be on our own.

I'm a part of one of those facebook group pages and all of the democrats who watched the debate, were surprised by Ron Paul.

Originally Posted by millennialX

I'm a part of one of those facebook group pages and all of the democrats who watched the debate, were surprised by Ron Paul.

I would have loved to hear more from Ron Paul. I'm not saying that I agree with everything he has to say, but he is interesting. And some of things he had to say just seemed like common sense to me. Which is more than I can say for some of the others.

Originally Posted by millennialX

The Pizza guy came of as the classic Republican; Not a Neo con or Tea Party member.

I hate to see the issues of vaccines under Perry as a president. What's he going to do, accidently create a genocide of all liberals and mildly apologize for it in a 2016 debate? LOL

I guess I'm just confused as to why this is even issue. It's mandated that my children must have certain vaccinations like mumps, measles, etc. in order to go to school. (It was the same in Illinois). This is just something that is routinely done. So what is the big deal about this one vaccine. If I had a daughter, I wouldn't have problem with her getting this vaccine. It just might save her life one day. I think it has to do with the fact that it is a sexual transmitted disease. But just because you give a kid a vaccination you aren't telling them to go out and have sex. When my boys get their booster shots, they never ask what they are getting shots for. I'm sure this vaccination is given to girls along with all their other booster shots and they aren't even aware of what they are getting a shot for. Michelle Bachman was just acting like a freak about the whole thing.

Originally Posted by ASB65

I guess I'm just confused as to why this is even issue. It's mandated that my children must have certain vaccinations like mumps, measles, etc. in order to go to school. (It was the same in Illinois). This is just something that is routinely done. So what is the big deal about this one vaccine. If I had a daughter, I wouldn't have problem with her getting this vaccine. It just might save her life one day. I think it has to do with the fact that it is a sexual transmitted disease. But just because you give a kid a vaccination you aren't telling them to go out and have sex. When my boys get their booster shots, they never ask what they are getting shots for. I'm sure this vaccination is given to girls along with all their other booster shots and they aren't even aware of what they are getting a shot for. Michelle Bachman was just acting like a freak about the whole thing.

This might take us off the 2012 topic, but I believe many voters for the GOP, are anti- vaccine in general and don't want anything to be forced on them, especially on a federal level. There's a form that allows you to opt out of getting the vaccines due to religious reasons. As Chas pointed out a long time ago, here....it's Raggedy Ann and Andy season again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raggedy_Ann

I think MillennialX is right about a subgroup but I think the main problem is indeed that Republicans see the vaccinations as permission to have sex, which of course is absolutely ridiculous. But of course we all know no one in Texas has sex before marriage, right? Right?

I find that I can't watch these debates for more than 5-10 minutes at a time even though I've been obsessed with politics all my life. They are all so totally out of touch with reality that I flip it off in disgust. And the audiences make it even worse, applauding the most inane statements. By the way, is anyone ever going to mention that if Obamacare is repealed there will be no protection for folks with pre-existing conditions? And they are so carried away with ideology. . .those heroic young Americans who want to get along on their own, with no health insurance, turn out to be the most expensive cases we've got when they get sick!!!

Traditionally the out-of-power party has the first convention. If Perry is nominated perhaps Obama would replace Biden with Romney. . . .just kidding. . .I think. He could put him in charge of health care!

Paul is by far the closest to my own views on foreign policy, that's for sure. Did he continue to get big ovations for his foreign policy statements last night?

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

I think MillennialX is right about a subgroup but I think the main problem is indeed that Republicans see the vaccinations as permission to have sex, which of course is absolutely ridiculous. But of course we all know no one in Texas has sex before marriage, right? Right?

LOL...If that is so, then we have a whole lot of children walking around in Texas that were products of immaculate conception.

I did watch the whole debate. I posted my quick review of it right after it was over, but to comment on it further, here is main take away. And what I think were the two most important and telling things that were discussed.

1. It is quite apparent that regardless of what Republican candidate you are talking about, the main thing the Republicans want to do is to beat Obama so they can repeal health care reform. They seem to blame health care reform for the reason for the national debt. Which is kind of silly considering we were in debt prior to Obama taking office and the two big things that really put us in the hole were the bail outs and the stimulus package (both which happened prior to the passage of health care reform.) So I'm not connecting the dots the same way these candidates and the audience seemed to be.

2. On the issue of Social Security. This was another big topic that was discussed. Ok, so they don't want to do anything to change the benefits for the people currently getting social security or those people getting ready to reach retirement age. (Protect the base here.) They talked a lot about making changes for the younger people. And if you are in your 20's or early 30's right now you do have several working years to adjust to the changes they want to make. So those folks may very well be alright. But one of the candidates (and I can't remember which one) mentioned something about the changes would only effect people in their early 50's and younger. So we are basically talking about GenX getting screwed here. IMO, the people in their early 50's and late 40's really don't have the working years ahead of them to adjust to whatever the new standards may be. It's obvious that SS does need to be fixed, but I don't think it's fair to put the burden on just one generation.

Originally Posted by ASB65

IMO, the people in their early 50's and late 40's really don't have the working years ahead of them to adjust to whatever the new standards may be. It's obvious that SS does need to be fixed, but I don't think it's fair to put the burden on just one generation.

I wish I couldn't say I've seen this coming for years. Jonesers and older Xers will crapped on the most one way or another, as usually seems to be the case.

I hate to say it because I hate the "kick the can" approach to governance, but our best outcome, at our age, would be for this can to be kicked for another 10 years. By that time, we'll be over 55 and much more likely to be exempted from sharing the sacrifice.

Based on what I've heard, I'm glad that I did not watch the debate. But I do have a few comments:

1. The anti-vaccine campaign is not particular to the political Right. There are a number of people on the Left that question the usage of vaccines for various reasons. But on the Left the concern is primarily with safety. The Right tends to argue against vaccines on a values basis.

I personally support the use of vaccines. While there may be some negative side-effects, in general vaccines have been a great benefit to humanity.

2. I'm glad Amy pointed out Perry's history of taxation.

3. Kaiser, don't bet against Obama teaming up with Romney (though it will likely not happen- I think).

Originally Posted by millennialX

This might take us off the 2012 topic, but I believe many voters for the GOP, are anti- vaccine in general and don't want anything to be forced on them, especially on a federal level. There's a form that allows you to opt out of getting the vaccines due to religious reasons. As Chas pointed out a long time ago, here....it's Raggedy Ann and Andy season again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raggedy_Ann

Raggedy Ann and Andy dolls are symbols of the Anti-Vax crazies? NOOOOOOO!

*sobs*

Comment I saw elsewhere concerning last night's debacl.... err, debate:

"Politicians should be forced to wear the patches of their corporate sponsors like NASCAR drivers."

Originally Posted by Wes84

1. The anti-vaccine campaign is not particular to the political Right. There are a number of people on the Left that question the usage of vaccines for various reasons. But on the Left the concern is primarily with safety. The Right tends to argue against vaccines on a values basis.

And another fringe (something on both sides, but IMO more prevalent on the right) has the opposition based on conspiracy theories, that the vaccines are trojan horses for implanting chips into people for surveillance and/or mind control. (Think folks like Alex Jones here.)

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

I think MillennialX is right about a subgroup but I think the main problem is indeed that Republicans see the vaccinations as permission to have sex, which of course is absolutely ridiculous. But of course we all know no one in Texas has sex before marriage, right? Right?

I have mentioned elsewhere that Boomers on both sides seem to be obsessed with sexual morality in a really sick way.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_959354.html

Ron Paul did not express any concern with the extreme inequality of economic result in America -- but did recognize that a lack of competition drives up medical costs.

Ron Paul actually made some sense, but some Americans seem to have about the same level of ethical value that one associates with Roman crowds who cheered as lions approached early Christians or political offenders and still thought themselves exemplars of community:

The answer may have struck a truly libertarian tone but it was clearly overshadowed by the members of the crowd who enthusiastically cheered the prospect of letting a man die rather than picking up the tab for his coverage.

The worst aspects of the 3T must themselves die if we are to create a better world for ourselves. As unpleasant and inconvenient as the 4T is it is necessary for clearing away the rottenness that accretes in the 2T and the 3T without challenges in those time. America must again become a safe and satisfying place for people of intelligence, learning, conscience, and culture, and not simply a place in which the rich get self-gratification at the expense of everyone else.

The Tea Party includes a bloodthirty lot that offers no second chance for failure by the non-rich... all of whom will be poor or at least completely dependent upon the caprice of the rich (which is poverty in itself).

The Romans thought the gladiatorial games and animal fights as examples of the sophistication of their community.