Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Above we see a number of people (including yours truly) clinging to the hope that Romney, if elected, will rediscover his inner centrist.

I think we need something dramatic. Simple linear movement (centrism) solves none of our problems. Cain's 9-9-9 caught my attention but not because I have analyzed it or can tell if it adds up. It caught my attention because it would be a radical step. I think of myself as a skeptical centrist, but we need to shake things up. What's the Democrats' equivalent to 9-9-9?

James50

Originally Posted by James50

I think we need something dramatic. Simple linear movement (centrism) solves none of our problems. Cain's 9-9-9 caught my attention but not because I have analyzed it or can tell if it adds up. It caught my attention because it would be a radical step. I think of myself as a skeptical centrist, but we need to shake things up. What's the Democrats' equivalent to 9-9-9?

James50

I would suggest that you take a closer at this plan. I saw an interview last night with Cain where he was asked what about the local and state sales taxes that are already in place? Cain's answer, "Well, lets not muddle this up."...Lets not muddle this up??? What kind of an answer is that?...He couldn't answer it because he knows that you can't get rid of the other sales taxes. The 9% sales tax would be added on top of those. So for people like me who are already paying 8% sales tax, my sales tax would go up to 17%.

But you are correct that Democrats don't have a radical plan either. The radical plan is coming though. We just aren't going to see it in 2012 election. We may start to see it's roots by the next mid-term election and with any luck at all, the radical plan might happen by 2016.

Originally Posted by ASB65

So for people like me who are already paying 8% sales tax, my sales tax would go up to 17%.

It's 18% in Russia (VAT, though -- which is pretty much the same thing as sales tax). And most of the European countries we were in had one even higher than that.

I'm principally against taxes, don't get me wrong. But 17% isn't any kind of crazy-onerous for a sales tax.

Is 9-9-9 unrealistic?

My Republican friends are passing this around:
http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2011...economic-plan/

Originally Posted by Justin '77

It's 18% in Russia (VAT, though -- which is pretty much the same thing as sales tax). And most of the European countries we were in had one even higher than that.

I'm principally against taxes, don't get me wrong. But 17% isn't any kind of crazy-onerous for a sales tax.

Yes they do pay higher taxes but they also have access to free health care and either free or very low cost higher education, extended paid maternity leave in some of those countries, etc. So they are getting things for their higher tax rate they pay. I haven't heard anything about us getting something more for paying higher taxes from Cain.

Originally Posted by James50

I think we need something dramatic. Simple linear movement (centrism) solves none of our problems. Cain's 9-9-9 caught my attention but not because I have analyzed it or can tell if it adds up. It caught my attention because it would be a radical step. I think of myself as a skeptical centrist, but we need to shake things up. What's the Democrats' equivalent to 9-9-9?

James50

A dramatic solution along Republican lines will leave us much worse off than we are already.

Originally Posted by millennialX

Is 9-9-9 unrealistic?

My Republican friends are passing this around:
http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2011...economic-plan/

OK, but here's a GOP economic stalwart (Bruce Bartlett) panning the 9-9-9 plan as nuts.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

OK, but here's a GOP economic stalwart (Bruce Bartlett) panning the 9-9-9 plan as nuts.

I'm watching what little I'm hearing out of the GOP, and to a much lesser extent, out of OWS, with the same flabbergasted bewilderment as a Renaissance artist at the Dada movement. Only I think Dada made marginally more sense. The inmates are running the asylum, and the monkeys are running the zoo, while the keepers and standing by in a state of suspended animation.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

I'm watching what little I'm hearing out of the GOP, and to a much lesser extent, out of OWS, with the same flabbergasted bewilderment as a Renaissance artist at the Dada movement. Only I think Dada made marginally more sense. The inmates are running the asylum, and the monkeys are running the zoo, while the keepers and standing by in a state of suspended animation.

Looks like we're 4T!

I went ahead and set up a monthly recurring small donation to the Obama campaign. I feel tepid about him, and pessimistic about his chances for reelection, but feel like at least he's sane. Hopefully, the OWS movement will have a similar impact on Obama that Huey Long had on FDR.

Originally Posted by Superstring

I've been wondering about Obama's MBTI for a while now, and after reading this and a few other articles, I'm becoming more convinced he is an INTx (not sure if P/J...I lean toward P). Make of that what you will...I think his personality has been both a strength and a weakness.

The opposing values of the MBTI are neither virtues nor vices, guarantees of failure or of success. It's almost yin-yang. Success based upon personality traits entails other aspects of life -- intelligence, morals, and positioning in time and place. What makes an appropriate personality for an attorney would be ill-suited for an engineer, or vice-versa, even though both an attorney and an engineer would usually have the shared traits of intelligence, attention to details, and diligence.

We will never have the "perfect President". Every President has some limitations. It's hard to see how any President could have done a good job if elected in 1928... or 2004. I can imagine John Kerry looking at the bad finance going on in 2005 and lacking any viable means of changing it. 2008? Almost the same. John McCain would have been a disaster, forced to make concessions to the Democrats just to get anything done. But try other Presidents of the previous fifty years. Eisenhower rode a largely gentle tide. JFK asking Americans to become more daring as a response to economic disaster? That would have been a sick joke. LBJ? Structural reforms that LBJ pushed would have faced far harsher opposition. Nixon? Not then. Ford? Nope. Carter? Only if you want to achieve nothing politically when much had to be done. Reagan? He started the trend toward the mess that we are now in. The elder Bush? As between 1988 and 1992, foreign policy successes would not be enough. Clinton? Tantalizing. Dubya? Like immersing a frostbite victim in ice water.

(Deleted because someone said it better)

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

I'm watching what little I'm hearing out of the GOP, and to a much lesser extent, out of OWS, with the same flabbergasted bewilderment as a Renaissance artist at the Dada movement. Only I think Dada made marginally more sense. The inmates are running the asylum, and the monkeys are running the zoo, while the keepers and standing by in a state of suspended animation.

Amen--with one exception. The keepers aren't standing by. They died and haven't been replaced.

Originally Posted by ASB65

I would suggest that you take a closer at this plan. I saw an interview last night with Cain where he was asked what about the local and state sales taxes that are already in place? Cain's answer, "Well, lets not muddle this up."...Lets not muddle this up??? What kind of an answer is that?...He couldn't answer it because he knows that you can't get rid of the other sales taxes. The 9% sales tax would be added on top of those.

I guess Cain really ISN'T his brother's keeper!

Originally Posted by ASB65

I would suggest that you take a closer at this plan. I saw an interview last night with Cain where he was asked what about the local and state sales taxes that are already in place? Cain's answer, "Well, lets not muddle this up."...Lets not muddle this up??? What kind of an answer is that?...He couldn't answer it because he knows that you can't get rid of the other sales taxes. The 9% sales tax would be added on top of those. So for people like me who are already paying 8% sales tax, my sales tax would go up to 17%.

What Cain is proposing is a form of VAT which I thought folks on the left yearned for as a way to grow expenditures. As a society, we need to increase savings and reduce consumption. A national sales tax, particularly if it excluded food, would do that.

Someone else said that you should balance the 9% income tax against the 6% payroll tax. There's more to it than that. The 6% employer portion of the payroll tax would also be eliminated. The forces of labor competition would quickly put much of the employer portion into employees' hands as well. As for the corporate tax, that is little more than a fiction anyway.

If (and that is a big if), these taxes would keep federal revenue the same, it has a lot of positives. It would be very pro-growth as it would make the US tax structure one of the simplest in the developed world and would eliminate most of the economic dislocations and perverse incentives of the current tax code.

But, does it add up?

James50

Originally Posted by James50

What Cain is proposing is a form of VAT which I thought folks on the left yearned for as a way to grow expenditures. As a society, we need to increase savings and reduce consumption. A national sales tax, particularly if it excluded food, would do that.

Someone else said that you should balance the 9% income tax against the 6% payroll tax. There's more to it than that. The 6% employer portion of the payroll tax would also be eliminated. The forces of labor competition would quickly put much of the employer portion into employees' hands as well. As for the corporate tax, that is little more than a fiction anyway.

If (and that is a big if), these taxes would keep federal revenue the same, it has a lot of positives. It would be very pro-growth as it would make the US tax structure one of the simplest in the developed world and would eliminate most of the economic dislocations and perverse incentives of the current tax code.

But, does it add up?

James50

When you say 6% payroll tax, isn't that what funds social security and medicare? If so, how do we fund that? Just curious.

Originally Posted by ASB65

When you say 6% payroll tax, isn't that what funds social security and medicare? If so, how do we fund that? Just curious.

The total employer and employee contribution to SS and Medicare is 12.4%. This is a direct and regressive tax on all wages. This would go to zero under 9-9-9.

What you are asking is a subset of the larger question: does it add up? I don't know, but whatever is raised should cover current SS. However, Cain, like some others, wants to move the next generation onto a more privately based SS system.

There is no conceivable level of taxation that can pay for Medicare. We need a complete paradigm shift in medical delivery whether we reform the tax system or not.

James50

I read this and thought it was a joke. Is it?

http://forums.charlotteobserver.com/?q=node/13550

Pressed About His Plan To Raise Taxes On Food, Herman Cain Says Poor People Should Just Buy Used Goods

By Marie Diamond
Oct 12, 2011 at 6:05 pm

The clear winner of last night’s Republican presidential debate on the economy was Herman Cain’s 999 plan, which received more attention and coverage than any candidate or economic proposal submitted by the GOP field.

In response to sharp questioning from the moderators and his fellow contenders about the effects of his plan, which would raise taxes on common food items to pay for a massive corporate tax cut, Cain seemed to have settled on a simple solution: the poor should just eat used food and buy used goods.

Asked to “explain why under your plan all Americans should be paying more for milk, for a loaf of bread, and beer?” Cain noted that under his plan “there is no tax on used goods.” Cain repeated this “used goods” suggestion in two interviews after the debate, insisting that his plan is not regressive. Instead, he explained, the new tax structure would give families the “flexibility to decide on how much they want to spend it on new goods [and] how much they want to spend it on used goods.”

Watch it:http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...ain-food-used/

In a Bloomberg interview, Cain claimed that under 999, “prices don’t go up” because “consumers have the option to stretch their dollar because of buying used goods instead of new.” Cain failed to explain how this solution would apply to food, which families might have difficulty buying “used” unless they rummage through garbage. Clearly he considers relying almost entirely on secondhand items for everyday life a perfectly reasonable idea for poor families.

As a former CEO of a pizza company, Cain should know that a hike in taxes on food products will be a heavy blow for the millions of families who are already having a hard time making ends meet. Thirty-one states charge no sales tax on food, and others tax food at a lower rate than other goods or provide rebates for lower-income families to offset the tax. Only two states, Mississippi and Alabama, charge full sales tax on food.

As ThinkProgress has explained, 999 would slash taxes on the wealthy, drive up deficits to their highest levels since World War II, and force low-income Americans to pay nine times their current tax rate.
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Thu, 10/13/2011 - 10:59
#1
ArchieBunkerVI
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There really are not any poor

There really are not any poor people in this country. Those with the least resources, still have government homes with heat, clean running water and they still are clothed and eat enough that many of them get fat. They all get free healthcare and free schooling, access to libraries and subsidized public transportation and public ball parks and swim parks. Not bad. Not bad at all.

And guess what...they all have opportunities to educate themselves, work hard and find financial success. Just like Hermann Cain did. Just like Barack Obama did. Just like Oprah Winfrey did. Heck...the vast majority of non-poor people, or whites will never see the successes that Cain Obama or Winfrey..who all grew up relatively poor, will see.
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Thu, 10/13/2011 - 13:20
#2
ursosarctos
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The vast majority of poor

The vast majority of poor people not only do not live in government housing, they are either tenants in privately owned rentals and many, believe it or not, own their own homes. If your paying high rents or mortgages that eat up most of your income you don't have much left for food, health insurance, car payments, etc., etc.

As for the fat people, the agricultural business model favors heavily processed foods that are subsidized and cheap to produce. Corn is overproduced and heavily subsidized and corn syrup is used in most processed foods.

If you go around most poor urban neighborhoods you'll find that there are very few real supermarkets or green grocers. People often have to rely on liquor stores which sell, guess what, processed foods. High carbs, high sodium, not much protein. Fresh vegetables, fish, unprocessed cuts of meat are hard to find unless you're willing to travel long distances, often by bus, to get to get to decent groceries.

There is actually a lot of malnutrition in poor neighborhoods even though there appears to be a lot of food to eat hence diabetes rates are very high. There has definitely been a move to organize farmers markets and encourage urban agriculture (community gardens, back yard plots) in many cities but there's still a long way to go. Anyway, my point is that poverty manifests in many different ways and things are not always what they seem.
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Thu, 10/13/2011 - 13:40
#3
ArchieBunkerVI
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Heres what we need. Instead

Heres what we need. Instead of food stamps, the feds should open up grocery stores called Uncle Sam's and issue Uncle Sam's debit cards to poor people. Uncle Sam's would sell only Uncle Sam's generic brands of nutritious foods. No snacks. No sodas. No junk. Just veggies, grains, inexpensive meats and foods which are healthy. Poor people would not be allowed to use government money to shop anywhere else at all. In areas where building such a store is impractical, local groceries or liquor stores would carry the same Uncle Sam's brands and poor people would only be allowed to buy those Uncle Sam's brands when using federal debit cards.

Better yet....make poor people work for food. All they have to do is help repave the streets, or paint some buildings or mow their neighborhood parks. Afterward, they could get fed. Think about all those starving Sudanese who would jump at that opportunity, and then look at our fat lazy bums and wonder why they don't. Its because folks like you coddle them and just give them stuff for nothing.

Think about this image....imagine a pond with big fat carp all hanging out near the pier next to where the fish food vending machine is. Every day, the big fat carp hang out waiting for food to be tossed to them by people who think its so fun and wonderful and helpful to feed the fish. Now...imagine if the vending machine runs out of food and doesn't get filled up for weeks. Do you think those carp remain and starve and die? Or do they swim away and hunt for food elsewhere just as all animals do in nature. You see, we've created human carp...all of them swirling around the government food machine. Take the food away and voilà...the humans go back to work.

Poor people can move too. If the rent in NYC is too high, move to Jersey. Just show up at any Amtrak station with your Uncle Sam's card and hop on.

And does Cain realize what "used food" is? Shall we send him a grade school lesson on the human digestive system?

The Bush era tax cuts need to end, all of them, and that will resolve most of our debt and tax fairness issues. If our debt isn't so resolved right away, as it was during Clinton's time, that's because of the damage Bush did. If more money is needed, then the rich folks who gave us Bush and Co. should pay it.

As a bi-partisan gesture, I would support a revenue-neutral or revenue-raising plan to end all the corporate tax loopholes and the allowances for moving things overseas, in exchange for lowering the corporate tax rate.

We already made our personal income taxes simpler in 1986. Nothing more needs to be done. Flat tax schemes are the exact opposite of what is needed. The SS tax needs to be more progressive, and the Medicare Tax needs to be raised enough to cover everyone, with an end to such things as favors to US drug companies and endless end-of-life treatments. Our health lifestyles need to change, with government support, encouragement and promptings, and that would solve a lot of our health care expenses too.

And does Cain realize what "used food" is? Shall we send him a grade school lesson on the human digestive system?

And a caption should be added above the lesson that reads: the Cain 999 tax plan.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

I read this and thought it was a joke. Is it?

Heres what we need. Instead of food stamps, the feds should open up grocery stores called Uncle Sam's and issue Uncle Sam's debit cards to poor people. Uncle Sam's would sell only Uncle Sam's generic brands of nutritious foods. No snacks. No sodas. No junk. Just veggies, grains, inexpensive meats and foods which are healthy. Poor people would not be allowed to use government money to shop anywhere else at all. In areas where building such a store is impractical, local groceries or liquor stores would carry the same Uncle Sam's brands and poor people would only be allowed to buy those Uncle Sam's brands when using federal debit cards.

Better yet....make poor people work for food. All they have to do is help repave the streets, or paint some buildings or mow their neighborhood parks. Afterward, they could get fed. Think about all those starving Sudanese who would jump at that opportunity, and then look at our fat lazy bums and wonder why they don't. Its because folks like you coddle them and just give them stuff for nothing.

I wish people understood that the vast majority of people on SNAP (food stamps) are either children, elderly, or disabled. And of those who are nondisabled, not elderly adults, many are already working. Another big group is unemployed and looking for work, any work...

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

And does Cain realize what "used food" is? Shall we send him a grade school lesson on the human digestive system?

Oh, c'mon Badge'. Can you blame him? Americans have been eating-up regurgitated political talking-points for years.

Prince

PS: Plus, it makes for a nice "movement", correct?

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

And does Cain realize what "used food" is? Shall we send him a grade school lesson on the human digestive system?

Sh...

To be sure, there are lots of inter-generational transfers transfers of used objects... furniture, luggage, housewares, consumer electronics, artwork, and even clothes. As elderly people move away from large suburban houses to "senior housing" they often have plenty of stuff to hand down to children -- or nieces and nephews. Those keep young people from spending heavily on new stuff when they are just starting out.

I once had a "personal money management session" as a substitute teacher in which the topic came up -- what to do if you must go to an apartment. I suggested the not-so-surprising Goodwill and Salvation Army stores where one can get others' castoffs cheaply. I suggested dollar-store merchandise as stopgaps for the really-good stuff when it comes to such things as cutlery and housewares. Sometimes you get lasting bargains, and sometimes you get a two or three years of serviceable use before you replace your bent spoons with those that have more metal. In view of the electronic goodies that go obsolete... what is wrong with an old-fashioned CRT color portable even with a remote? Save your money for one of the newfangled ones. Entertainment? There are plenty of VHS tapes that others have dumped, and VCRs are cheap. Do you really need "the best"?

The one thing that I discouraged was rent-to-own merchandise. One is better off to save money while putting up with a stopgap object until one has saved for something really good. Saving is a good habit, and when one buys something big like a refrigerator, sofa, or high-priced TV, it is a good time to start saving for the replacement.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Oh, c'mon Badge'. Can you blame him? Americans have been eating-up regurgitated political talking-points for years.

Prince

PS: Plus, it makes for a nice "movement", correct?

The political talking points are not used human food. They are used bovine fodder.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Sh...

To be sure, there are lots of inter-generational transfers transfers of used objects... furniture, luggage, housewares, consumer electronics, artwork, and even clothes. As elderly people move away from large suburban houses to "senior housing" they often have plenty of stuff to hand down to children -- or nieces and nephews. Those keep young people from spending heavily on new stuff when they are just starting out.

I once had a "personal money management session" as a substitute teacher in which the topic came up -- what to do if you must go to an apartment. I suggested the not-so-surprising Goodwill and Salvation Army stores where one can get others' castoffs cheaply. I suggested dollar-store merchandise as stopgaps for the really-good stuff when it comes to such things as cutlery and housewares. Sometimes you get lasting bargains, and sometimes you get a two or three years of serviceable use before you replace your bent spoons with those that have more metal. In view of the electronic goodies that go obsolete... what is wrong with an old-fashioned CRT color portable even with a remote? Save your money for one of the newfangled ones. Entertainment? There are plenty of VHS tapes that others have dumped, and VCRs are cheap. Do you really need "the best"?

The one thing that I discouraged was rent-to-own merchandise. One is better off to save money while putting up with a stopgap object until one has saved for something really good. Saving is a good habit, and when one buys something big like a refrigerator, sofa, or high-priced TV, it is a good time to start saving for the replacement.

Of course, one can always go freegan, until everybody starts doing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism