Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

Bottom line: the left did everything it believed in from 2008-2010.

Not even close. You're either delusional, or a liar. At this point, it doesn't really matter.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Not even close. You're either delusional, or a liar. At this point, it doesn't really matter.

You're illustrating my point. "The problem is not that what they did was wrong, it's that they didn't do enough of it." The left cannot admit that it is simply wrong, and its policies are destructive.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

You're illustrating my point. "The problem is not that what they did was wrong, it's that they didn't do enough of it." The left cannot admit that it is simply wrong, and its policies are destructive.

Nice dodge, but I was illustrating that the left did NOT do everything it believed from 2008-2010. That's a plain fact. That you can't even acknowledge this shows how deeply dogmatic you're being.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

Bottom line: the left did everything it believed in from 2008-2010. And it totally failed. Now they're just going nuts in the street making no sense, spouting class warfare, because they have no clue what else to do.

The left did virtually nothing it believed in under Obama. You can call him a socialist and demonize him as a leftwing devil, but on policy, he's about as liberal as Dwight Eisenhower. Every liberal economist that anlyzed the need for stimulus (concensus - $2T) or healthcare reform (concensus - single payer) was ignored. I won't even start on the total cave-in on foreign and security issues, since Obama is Bush 2 Redux.

And give the class warfare thing a rest. The only class warfare that has actually been waged, rather than talked about endlessly on talk radio, is the war on hoi polloi by corps d'elite. When the warriors admit to it, I tend to take their admission seriously.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

I won't even start on the total cave-in on foreign and security issues, since Obama is Bush 2 Redux.

That's not completely fair. Bush only started two wars. Obama's up to three or four already (plus the two he took over already in-process). Point to Bush.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

The left did virtually nothing it believed in under Obama. You can call him a socialist and demonize him as a leftwing devil, but on policy, he's about as liberal as Dwight Eisenhower. Every liberal economist that anlyzed the need for stimulus (concensus - $2T) or healthcare reform (concensus - single payer) was ignored. I won't even start on the total cave-in on foreign and security issues, since Obama is Bush 2 Redux.

And give the class warfare thing a rest. The only class warfare that has actually been waged, rather than talked about endlessly on talk radio, is the war on hoi polloi by corps d'elite. WHen the wariors admit to it, I tend to take their admission seriously.

Right. To the absolute nutcase left like most of the people who are left on this board, the left did virtually nothing it believed in under Obama. Among the American people at large, Obama and the Democrats are seen as too far left. The stimulus and health care bills were not nearly enough for you all. People on this board have been calling for the killing of bankers, and the overthrow of the government. This place has some genuinely disturbed people posting on it.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

Right. To the absolute nutcase left like most of the people who are left on this board, the left did virtually nothing it believed in under Obama. Among the American people at large, Obama and the Democrats are seen as too far left. The stimulus and health care bills were not nearly enough for you all. People on this board have been calling for the killing of bankers, and the overthrow of the government. This place has some genuinely disturbed people posting on it.

Killing of bankers? Who's advocating that?

And I thought you didn't like government anyway. Why should its overthrow bother you?

Originally Posted by Justin '77

That's not completely fair. Bush only started two wars. Obama's up to three or four already (plus the two he took over already in-process). Point to Bush.

You're using an extremely loose definition of the word 'war.' Bush's Iraq invasion is in a totally different league than anything Obama has started.

I don't consider the Libya intervention a war, unless you want to call every bombing campaign or ground operation we've carried out a war. In which case Reagan and Clinton are probably the biggest warmongers of them all!

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

Right. To the absolute nutcase left like most of the people who are left on this board, the left did virtually nothing it believed in under Obama. Among the American people at large, Obama and the Democrats are seen as too far left. The stimulus and health care bills were not nearly enough for you all. People on this board have been calling for the killing of bankers, and the overthrow of the government. This place has some genuinely disturbed people posting on it.

If you say it enough times, will you believe it?

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

Uh huh.

1. Debt doesn't matter.
2. We don't need to cut spending.
3. Raising taxes will not prevent economic growth.

I know you need to believe that stuff, but it's laughable.

Working backwards -

3. Raising taxes across the board will likely impact economic growth, however, one could alter who pays what without a net overall increase in taxes. Also, raising taxes is very important as a means to reduce aggregate demand when inflation is a significant concern - we are not in that situation.

2. We absolutely need spending, i.e., increased aggregate demand - that IS the situation we now have. Household are deleveraging and that means they are cutting back on their spending. Further much of our spending is 'leaking out' to purchase of imports; that's good in that we are trading pieces of green paper for real goods and services, however, it does not put our people to work. Only the third of three of the economic sectors is in the position to spend - that would be the federal government. As this chart shows their net spending (i.e., deficit spending) is currently what is keeping the economy afloat -



This chart may be a little hard to understand. What it shows is that currently the federal govt is in net deficit while the private sector is net saving and some dollars are going overseas due to our imports exceeding our exports. You wil notice that in the 90s there was little federal deficits and for a while surpluses and at the same time little savings in the private sector, In that situation, for the private sector to grow, it had to go into a debt spree borrowing from overseas the only net dollar savers during that decade - and we now know where that eventually took us. After the fall, the private sector is net saving which is mostly in the form of de-leveraging - they ar NOT net spending. Now, the only net spending is from the federal govt - does that give you a clue what is driving growth right now?

1. It is the last (your first) one, "debt doesn't matter," that is puzzling. I assume you mean federal government debt. Could you explain to me why you think it does matter and on what basis/evidence/data that leads you to that conclusion? I believe federal debt matters a lot but for a much different reason than you, I'm sure.

Just put JPT on ignore, people.

Originally Posted by jadams

If you say it enough times, will you believe it?

The polls show it. But I have noticed without a doubt that people on the left reject any information that doesn't support their ideology. They just ignore it. You have to to continue to believe what they believe after it has failed so badly so many times.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

As this forum proves, the left is becoming increasingly crazed, deranged, extreme and irrational. It is clearly desperation. After all the effort they put into destroying Bush and the Republicans and installing Obama and the Democrats, the absolute, utter failure of left wing ideology in the face of recession has left them now searching for any way of clinging to their world view, which is deeply woven into their personal identity, because for most it takes the place of religious faith. Put another way, the ill-educated, ignorant, delusional expectations bred by the false promises and false premises of the left has left those who have been duped by it in a blind, blank-minded rage now that it has so clearly failed.

A dose of reality for those swept up in the delusion:

Poll: Washington to blame more than Wall Street for economy



OWS is trying to salvage the left from its own abject failure by placing the blame elsewhere. While it is publicly aimed at Wall Street, this is really the left trying to distance itself from the Democrats, on the premise that it's not their ideology that failed, their politicians were just bought off. In any case, the country is moving away from them, perhaps permanently, they know it, and this is the incoherent scream of panic and desperation.

If it continues, this is going to be the moment where the broad middle of the country, many of whom have been sympathetic to the Democrats and the left in the past, will look at the left and say "uh, no...I'm not one of those nuts". That has already happened to a great degree because of the failure of Obama and the Democrats, as last November's election shows. But this will likely be the point where the Democratic Party's long descent into madness, which began around 1968, finally consumes it and marginalizes it for generations to come.

On the bright side, all of this stuff has been a long time coming, and it's good that it's finally coming to a head. The flat-out looniness ushered into society and normalized during the 60s and 70s has been hanginga round with a degree of respectability it has never deserved, and it has eroded the society from within while the average American has ignored it and/or given a nod to it in the interest of being "cool". OWS is bringing it out to the fore, and showing people just how ignorant, delusional and "entitled" a large subset of the public has become. They really believe the government will take care of them, give them everything for free, and solve all of their problems if only it can be done right. They simply cannot comprehend the fact that the country is broke. Beyond broke, it is $15T in debt. And the entire net wealth of "the rich" is a tiny drop in that bucket, even if the bloodthirsty mob seized every dime of it.

The whole scam of "government will take care of you" is collapsing, exposed as the lie it is. Unfortunately, the primary qualification for buying into OWS is being completely ignorant about the realities of economics, and basic math.

You're scared we may win, aren't you? Why else would you be overreacting so much?
If you really think America in 2008-2011 is left-wing extremism gone awry, you are really deluded. All your arguments are just you re-spouting Fox propaganda. There's not an original thought there.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

Right. To the absolute nutcase left like most of the people who are left on this board, the left did virtually nothing it believed in under Obama. Among the American people at large, Obama and the Democrats are seen as too far left. The stimulus and health care bills were not nearly enough for you all.

Yeah, it's those nutcases. You know the ones. The ones with the Nobel prizes in economics. Yeah, those wackos are certainly scary, since they, and their equally illustrious but currently unawarded collegues have been right on the economy for a very long time. In fact, no one on the right has been even decent since Milton Friedman, and one of his pet theories (quantitative easing) has actaully been tried and found inadequate ... as predicted by those pesky Keynesians.

Originally Posted by JPT ...

People on this board have been calling for the killing of bankers, and the overthrow of the government. This place has some genuinely disturbed people posting on it.

Other than Justin '77, who is many things but certainly not a left winger, who has been calling for killing bankers and overthrowing the government?

Originally Posted by Odin

Just put JPT on ignore, people.

Why? At least he steps up and puts it out there.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

The polls show it. But I have noticed without a doubt that people on the left reject any information that doesn't support their ideology. They just ignore it. You have to to continue to believe what they believe after it has failed so badly so many times.

I'm sure you have numerous examples. Please provide a few.

Really have not posted that much recently.

I've been very busy recently, just renewed subscription to ancestry.com that I didn't renew 2 years ago. I've spent a bit of time researching more of my family history, which I've been able to trace back to at least 1600s. Maybe further.

In it I've found ancestors in nearly every war...Korea, WW1, Civil War, War 1812, American Revolution, even French/Indian War. Strangely none in WW2 or Vietnam.

I know this has little to do with the 2012 election, but I'll get to that near the end. Most of these ancestors lived their lives doing what they thought was best for their families, probably looking towards an unknown future. One wonders especially during the 4T's (Revolution, Civil War, WW2) what they thought of the future. A different world always ended up emerging. But life still went on.

Now I like guessing at what a re-election of Obama or election of Romney might mean for the country as a whole. The reality is though, we really don't know. Which is why I continue to lose patience with the typical Democrat vs Republican schtick exhibited by both sides here...or anywhere.

Now 2012 will be my 6th presidential election I will be voting in. Thus far my trend has been I have never voted to re-elect a President. Ever. I have never voted to continue the party in power in the WH. Ever. I have to say, Eric Greens post earlier about a parlimentary style government after this 4T sounds somewhat appealing.

In voting in 2012, I don't just consider the difference between Obama and the GOP nominee, but also the likely effect on the 2014 elections.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Why? At least he steps up and puts it out there.

He regurgitates the same Glen Beck Fox News talking points like a broken record.

Ten things to keep in mind for 2012

With an eye on 2012, here are ten important but sometimes counterintuitive facts to keep in mind:
1. There is no austerity.
2. There was no deregulation.
3. You can’t trust Republicans on spending.
4. Wall Street loves Democrats.
5. People who voted for Barack Obama on civil-liberties grounds are fools.
6. If you aren’t for massive entitlement reforms, you’re for massive tax hikes.
7. But taxing the rich won’t close the deficit.
8. The housing bubble was largely a political creation.
9. Well-meaning politicians are just as dangerous as self-serving ones.
10. There’s no way out of this jam without big cuts to popular programs.

Anyone care to disagree with one of these?

I would say #8 is the one most frequently derided on this forum.

James50

Originally Posted by James50

Ten things to keep in mind for 2012



Anyone care to disagree with one of these?

I would say #8 is the one most frequently derided on this forum.

James50

James, read The Big Short, by Michael Lewis. I came away with at least a bit of an understanding of the complexity and the nature of the so-called "housing" bubble.

Originally Posted by James50

Ten things to keep in mind for 2012



Anyone care to disagree with one of these?

I would say #8 is the one most frequently derided on this forum.

James50

Fully agree with 5, but that's not your question.

Originally Posted by James50

Ten things to keep in mind for 2012



Anyone care to disagree with one of these?

I would say #8 is the one most frequently derided on this forum.

James50

Yes, certainly.

First, #4 and #5 are the typical "lesser evil" argument that tends to get some on the Left wringing their hands and wishing for third parties and magic ponies; those of you on the Right of course see it as a wedge issue to keep voters on the Left at home on election day. The easy answer to this is to just change the focus to "the greater evil" (i.e, you guys) and the concern for the relative minor trespasses on the Left, at least from a pragmatic standpoint, get lost as background noise.

Next, #3 is a perfect example of the "greater evil" in a couple of ways. First, the author, being a Right wing nut 'think' tanker, tries a little misdirection by suggesting that what we can't trust is the GOP actually deficit spending - that is deceitful in and of itself (i.e. a calling card of "the greater evil"). She knows, and you would be hard pressed to find anyone on the Left that doesn't know, that no real GOPer is actually a deficit hawk and clearly the evidence of their prodigious spending over the decades makes clear they don't give a shit about deficits but only on occasion, like now, to speak otherwise when it is political expedient - most people call this hypocrisy (i.e. a calling card of "the greater evil").

Implicit in #9 is the conclusion that nothing should be attempted because we are all too dumb - that is far from Hayek's philosophy or his advice given. What #9 attempts to imply is a bastardization of one of the great thinkers of our time (i.e. typical of "the greater evil")

#7 an #8 are the meatier ones but both rely on the reader's abject ignorance of the topic matter and knee-jerk reaction to the "big government" myths that have been relentlessly instilled into brains for the last several decades. #7 relies on pulling the wool over your eyes of the complex intertwining of ownership and relationships between huge financial entities with tons of million-dollar income lawyers making those relationships as clear as mud (see "the greater evil"). #8 is a zombie myth that just will not die no matter how many time its been shot in the head such as here (see "the greater evil") -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...889#post377889

Now, we get to the really fun stuff, #1, #6, #7, and #10 - all based on a complete ignorance of how a fiat currency in the hands of monetarily-sovereign government works.


First, "this jam" (#10) is that there is not enough aggregate demand in the economy; we are far below the capacity of the US economy and even farther below the capacity of the global economy. As a result, there is high unemployment for there is no need for firms to hire more people to increase supply when there is a dearth of aggregate demand. Cutting spending, whether federal govt or non-govt, will exacerbate "this jam."

The deficit (#7) is not a problem; the only concern for a deficit is if it putting too much money supply into the economy (i.e. too much federal spending) or leaving too much money supply in the economy (i.e. not enough taxing) and that is causing sustained generalize increases in goods and services that are harmful, i.e. harmful inflation. There is no harmful inflation now or for the foreseeable future. Yes, there is energy price increases, mostly from a year ago, but that is not a result of federal deficit spending. Yes, there are commodity price increased, but that is also not a result of federal deficit spending. Taxing the rich to close the deficit is a red herring.

If there is any need for "massive entitlement reforms" (#6), it is to ensure that all benefits will be paid and the end of FICA. As the issuer of our currency, the federal govt's spending is not limited by taxing or by borrowing; it has the boundary constraint of the concern for harmful inflation. That is not an issue for us now nor in the foreseeable future. When we get to the point where these programs are suppose to be having problems, the degree that spending on the benefits will be a problem (adding to inflation) or a solution (countering deflation) can only be determined AT THAT TIME.

CBO estimates that our economy is running about $850 billion below its potential, which means a lot of idle capacity and a lot of people not working. Given the deleveraging that households are going through and the unlikelihood that we are going to start to have a positive trade balance, the ONLY way to fill that gap is by the spending of the third sector of the economy, the federal government. Any spending by the federal government that does not fill that gap and fully employ everyone willing and able to work IS AUSTERIY (#1)and it is UNNECESSARY. And just like the Stimulus of 2009, it won't cost you or me a dime.

Given all this, your list should be re-labeled as the ten stupidest things to keep in mind.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Why? At least he steps up and puts it out there.

Agreed. Even though I don't agree with him completely I admire his fortitude & drive.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by TnT

James, read The Big Short, by Michael Lewis. I came away with at least a bit of an understanding of the complexity and the nature of the so-called "housing" bubble.

I have read it. I would describe it as the story of what happened when people realized the housing bubble was about to burst. I don't think of it as a description of what caused the bubble.

James50

Originally Posted by James50

Ten things to keep in mind for 2012

With an eye on 2012, here are ten important but sometimes counterintuitive facts to keep in mind:
1. There is no austerity.
2. There was no deregulation.
3. You can’t trust Republicans on spending.
4. Wall Street loves Democrats.
5. People who voted for Barack Obama on civil-liberties grounds are fools.
6. If you aren’t for massive entitlement reforms, you’re for massive tax hikes.
7. But taxing the rich won’t close the deficit.
8. The housing bubble was largely a political creation.
9. Well-meaning politicians are just as dangerous as self-serving ones.
10. There’s no way out of this jam without big cuts to popular programs

Anyone care to disagree with one of these?

I would say #8 is the one most frequently derided on this forum.

James50

In order:

1. So far there is no austerity, but no anti-austerity either. As bad as the economy is right now, that qualifies as austerity.
2. The deregulation steamroller goes all the way back to Jimmy Carter. Nothing was worse than Clinton signing Gramm-Leach-Bliley, except for its being passed in the first place. Then there is energy ...
3. This was overly long by one word.
4. This is true.
5. Likewise, this is true
6. The only issue that applies here is REAL healthcare reform, which was stimied by Blue Dogs and Republicans. Therre is no other fix, unless we're willing to let people die on the steps of the hospital.
7. Taxing the rich will close the deficit gap, because it will change behavior. It won't happen immediately though.
8. The housing bubble was due to reckless lending in the private sector, and was compounded by creative refiinacing. I can't lame government for most of this, but see item 2 for a reason to blame them anyway.
9. Politicians are dangerous because they have power, but they are not well constrained.
10. Without a growth plan, there is no austerity solution. Sorry. Cuttinig most programs will get us nowhere we want to be. On the other hand, some sonsolidatin and scrupulous auditing migh eliminate waste, whisch is good but inadequate.