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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 172







Post#4276 at 10-24-2011 07:45 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Well, with respect to election cycles, OWS is about 6 months behind the Tea Party, which first got onto the radar in the spring of 2009. By November 2010 it had a massive electoral impact. I will be very surprised if OWS has a comparable electoral impact in 2012. Surprised, but delighted.
Only because the TP was quickly hijacked by the Establishment and so was allowed positive media coverage by the Elites.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

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Post#4277 at 10-24-2011 07:48 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
I second that it gets on my nerves too. I suppose the founding fathers would be seen as socialists too. They were all about a government of the people, for the people, by the people, etc. etc. (Yes, I know that was an Abe Lincoln quote, but whatever) It still came from the ideas of the constitution. The revolutionaries were sick of the crap they were getting from the rulers in England. They wanted a government that worked for them...the people. Not one that catered to the wimps of the ruling class.
They would call the real Thomas Paine an America-hating Commie.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#4278 at 10-24-2011 07:58 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
I suppose I find OSHA the most galling. We have an excellent safety record and even though we have some dangerous equipment, we often go years between lost time accidents. Recently, we had an inspection that was prompted by an agency initiative for companies which had equipment that could cause amputations (fingers is the biggest danger). We have such equipment with significant guarding. No problems there. But once in the plant, the inspector has to look at everything. He found a couple of electrical panels which did not have the required 36" clear around them. In an emergency, someone would have to push some stuff out of the way to get to the disconnect. We were also cited for some extensions cords that had been dragged across the floor to run some pedestal fans in the summer heat which had some place where the insulation was damaged.

Georgia Tech has a service where you can request an inspection. They will not report any violations found as long as you correct them. We have requested this service numerous times. Indeed, several years ago we were granted a designation from OSHA for the passing nature of our plant and our accident record. At the time we received it, we were only one of three companies in the state that had earned this.

At no time did anyone from Georgia Tech or OSHA in the past tell us the panel clear areas were a violation during numerous inspections over the years. This is only one of hundreds of details you can be fined for. The inspector said we should get the Ga Tech service. "But we already have" of course has no effect. We are still waiting to see what we will be fined. I can guarantee you that not 1 company out of a 100 has dwelt on these regulations and systems as much as we have. It is literally impossible to have a clean inspection. We know it and they know it.

Finally, another characteristic of this inspection that is not substantive but definitely annoying was that the inspector arrived at 9 AM and left at 3 PM. He did not allow anyone to take lunch. It may seem a small thing but we felt it was disrespectful of our company and the management that has struggled to maintain compliance.

Maybe another time, I can go into what it is like to keep track of environmental regulations.

James50
This sounds more like the particular inspectors being picky dicks then any inherent problem. The OSHA inspector who came to the thrift store I work at blew off minor violations as long our supervisor promised to fixed them, especially if they are some obscure regulation that is easy to overlook.
Last edited by Odin; 10-24-2011 at 08:05 PM.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#4279 at 10-24-2011 08:02 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Its like asking if we need traffic laws. Yes, of course. But how do you feel when you are stopped by a cop at midnight for turning right on red when there is small but unlit sign that you did not see saying "no turn on red" and there is no one (except the cop) for hundreds of yards?

That happened to my24 year old millinneal son recently. It is the first ticket he has ever gotten. The fine was $175 paid on line. He was rightly furious. This kind of stuff is what makes people hate the government.

James50
Everyone here in Fargo hates the traffic cops because they have a monthly ticket quota, they will ticket you for innocent mistakes of the kind your son did in order to get their quotas filled, it's a f***ing extortion racket.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#4280 at 10-24-2011 08:04 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Only because the TP was quickly hijacked by the Establishment and so was allowed positive media coverage by the Elites.
I don't think lack of media coverage is an issue for OWS anymore. Now lack of accurate media coverage, that's another issue. However, I will say it's better now than it was when the media first began to taking notice of it. There are certain people or media sources that are covering it accurately, but if you aren't watching or reading these media sources, then chances are you may not be getting the true story...Let's put it this. If you are still asking what do these people want? Or if you are still seeing this as a partisan movement (or potential partisan movement) chances are you aren't tuned into accurate coverage.







Post#4281 at 10-25-2011 12:04 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Question for James: your group of folk has a lot of influence in politics. I wonder why you guys haven't reined in operations like OSHA? Maybe the Tea Party could go after it instead of environmental regulations. Of course, you probably have some problems with those too. But come on James, I mean, you guys have so much power, and have had it for 30 years. Why is OSHA still so full of dicks?
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

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Post#4282 at 10-25-2011 05:56 AM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
I'm not excusing Fannie/Freddie.
Funny, I am excusing Fannie Mae(as she was orginally designed). Note: I would have to examine Freddie Mac in more depth to make an assessment. Why were they allowed to hold Mortgages as Investments?(this is rhetorical).

Quote Originally Posted by PW
The primary reason they lost market share, and therefore the primary blame for the sub-prime shenanigans, is that they previously had their wings clipped hard as a result of the accounting scandals of 2004. However, lets not forget that these GSEs were turned into private corporations, as driven by "stockholder value" as any other listing on NYSE, and that nearly all the evils that emerged from them came from that corporation aspect of their business model. They have since been returned to solely federal government entities that can't avail themselves of corporation bullshit; they are currently the only thing underpinning any housing sector activity, and at some point will likely be a 'profitable' segment of federal operations.
Ah yes, "a profitable segment of the Government". How appropriate. Maybe we can use the Strategic Petroleum Reserve as a vehicle to trade Crude Oil, as well. How about Individual Carbon Credits? Note: My assumption is that the quotation marks around "profitable" has to do with your views on MMT. If so, understood and duly-noted.

Quote Originally Posted by PW
It is that latter attribute that has the wing nuts trying to destroy it ala Obamacare. If Obama gets elected in 2012, it is game over for the t-baggers as these govt programs prove out to be integral to our economy's well being, i.e. we'll have t-tards at town halls with signs of "Hands-off my Fannie" along with the ones with "Keep govt socialism out of my Obamacare." People like the Koch brothers know this and are fighting it with everything they got.
It is expected that Interventionistas such as yourself are interested in an increase in Dependency on the Federal Govt.

Your quotes are both artistic and funny, though.

Quote Originally Posted by PW
Yes, and mostly for economic reasons. Given what automation is doing to jobs, this is the only viable way to keep any semblance of what was the American Dream.
Oh, so tempting... like a WWI Zeppelin...floating... so enticingly...in an azure sky...Another day, perhaps.

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Post#4283 at 10-25-2011 09:26 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Question for James: your group of folk has a lot of influence in politics. I wonder why you guys haven't reined in operations like OSHA? Maybe the Tea Party could go after it instead of environmental regulations. Of course, you probably have some problems with those too. But come on James, I mean, you guys have so much power, and have had it for 30 years. Why is OSHA still so full of dicks?
Some reasons:

1. It does not affect enough people. Only managers are affected. Employees don't care particularly unless there is something obviously unsafe in a workplace. (Despite what you might think, most managers are very concerned about workplace safety even though they hate OSHA.) It is hard for employees to make the connection that OSHA may be taking money out of their pockets due to higher costs for the company. In large corporations, the people at the top spend no time on it at all unless there is a disaster. Compliance is the job of the middle manager.
2. Yesterday's punching bag - Massey Coal. There are always enough bad actors that someone will "wave the bloody shirt".
3. Its another barrier to entry. Scares off the competition.

Incidentally, you speak about political influence. I think one feature of today's world is that everyone feels impotent. I don't feel influential at all. I am just another cog in the great machine, another bug scurrying across the carpet looking for a place to hide. There is no one in authority who particularly cares what I think or do.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#4284 at 10-25-2011 10:58 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Some reasons:

1. It does not affect enough people. Only managers are affected. Employees don't care particularly unless there is something obviously unsafe in a workplace. (Despite what you might think, most managers are very concerned about workplace safety even though they hate OSHA.) It is hard for employees to make the connection that OSHA may be taking money out of their pockets due to higher costs for the company. In large corporations, the people at the top spend no time on it at all unless there is a disaster. Compliance is the job of the middle manager.
True. But middle managers need to act with conscience if violations pose danger. OHSA seems to act much like the military at its best in considering any slip-ups as portents of disaster because they tend to get lives of their own. Corporate governance at its best has required some internal politics with some bosses looking out for the interests of subordinates. A couple decades ago the best way to advance in corporate hierarchies was to devilop as many subordinates as possible.

2. Yesterday's punching bag - Massey Coal. There are always enough bad actors that someone will "wave the bloody shirt".
Maybe OHSA stops some workplace disaster from happening, which is a very good thing even if it is invisible. The worst actors get the most attention (which is appropriate). To be sure, any OHSA inspector has a vested interest in finding something wrong with a workplace, as such enhances a career. Again, safety violations probably begin small and metastasize with management that gets away with them.

3. Its another barrier to entry. Scares off the competition.
Who wants to work in a Chinese coal mine? If competition means mass death in industrial calamities (Texas City), maybe such is the competition that we don;t need.

Incidentally, you speak about political influence. I think one feature of today's world is that everyone feels impotent. I don't feel influential at all. I am just another cog in the great machine, another bug scurrying across the carpet looking for a place to hide. There is no one in authority who particularly cares what I think or do.
Those in authority in Big Business are out for themselves only even if they are in practice retainers of the feudal style.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#4285 at 10-25-2011 11:06 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
I don't think lack of media coverage is an issue for OWS anymore. Now lack of accurate media coverage, that's another issue. However, I will say it's better now than it was when the media first began to taking notice of it. There are certain people or media sources that are covering it accurately, but if you aren't watching or reading these media sources, then chances are you may not be getting the true story...Let's put it this. If you are still asking what do these people want? Or if you are still seeing this as a partisan movement (or potential partisan movement) chances are you aren't tuned into accurate coverage.
FoX Propaganda Channel will surely try to show anyone protesting corporate greed and abuse of power as a Marxist-Leninist, and I wouldn't be surprised if it bought some Che Guevara or "Free Mumia" shirts for the occasion for people who give the instruction "Turn the camera this way!" to the camera crew.

Advice: find foreign sources. Look for media that have no vested interest in the events.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#4286 at 10-25-2011 11:40 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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And right on cue:

Small-business owners in the United States are most likely to say complying with government regulations (22%) is the most important problem facing them today, followed by consumer confidence in the economy (15%) and lack of consumer demand (12%).
here.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#4287 at 10-25-2011 12:13 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Interesting. James, I feel that I should point out that "consumer confidence," "lack of consumer demand," and "lack of jobs" all mean the same thing from the POV of a small business owner. So that's really 31% who said that, in one form or another, which considerably outstrips the number who responded about government regulations.
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Post#4288 at 10-25-2011 12:55 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
And right on cue:



here.

James50
It's interesting to look at the historical trend of the NFIB survey that is done much more frequently and over decades compared to the Gallup poll -







What one sees is that concern for regulation and taxes are both puttering along about the same for the decade and certainly far below its historic high (- one would expect some baseline of complaint above zero regardless of level of tax/regulation, no?). What really pops out at you is “concern for sales” (i.e. aggregate demand) still nearly at all-time highs.

Right after the big brouhaha over the debt ceiling, Ezra Klein wrote an insightful piece concluding that it would become increasingly apparent that the budget issue would become a stalemate and the politics would soon shift to regulations as the only way for politicians to show they were doing something, anything. He's obviously been proven right.

What you are seeing in the uptick on "regulation concern" is the successful achievement of the propaganda machine in only a matter of a few months. Sheeple will always be sheeple, I guess - even when predicted and reported well in advance.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


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Post#4289 at 10-25-2011 01:17 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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There has been a proliferation of silly internet regulations in the last few years. Now they're talking about the PROTECT IP Act - a law that could have a severe chilling effect on all types of user-created websites (including forums like this one).

Owners of such websites could be held liable for anything posted by users and offending domains could be blacklisted from DNS records in a way similar to how China stifles the web.

Regulate the little guy, give handouts to the big boys and politically connected... Two sides of the same coin.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

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Post#4290 at 10-25-2011 01:29 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
What you are seeing in the uptick on "regulation concern" is the successful achievement of the propaganda machine in only a matter of a few months. Sheeple will always be sheeple, I guess - even when predicted and reported well in advance.
I will only speak for myself, but this is not a new concern. Surely you do not think that every time a new issue affecting business arises that it is the result of the "propaganda machine"? (whatever that is).

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#4291 at 10-25-2011 01:32 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
I will only speak for myself, but this is not a new concern. Surely you do not think that every time a new issue affecting business arises that it is the result of the "propaganda machine"? (whatever that is).
Not to worry, James. PW is a firm believer in the primacy of Official Statistics over mere empirical fact.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

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Post#4292 at 10-25-2011 01:38 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
I will only speak for myself, but this is not a new concern. Surely you do not think that every time a new issue affecting business arises that it is the result of the "propaganda machine"? (whatever that is).

James50
I'm both a skeptic and a data junkie. When I see/hear the latest "solution" from the Right and the data (e.g., number of media hits) clearly shows that "soltuion" (get rid of regulation) was no where in sight until the previous solution (cut the budget) failed miserable, I'm somewhat skeptical.

Not to take anything away from your own personal experiences, which I wish you the best in dealing with. But on the macro-scale, its just more political BS from the Right to distract us from the real problem - people need jobs. And jobs aren't going to magically appear because of confidence fairies blessing us for our austerity or removing regulations over night. It's going to come from the governemen spending money when we are in a situation where the private sector cannot. Good news: that won't cost you or me anything -- well, except for the money you'll spend taking the misses on that vacation once your order book becomes overfilled.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

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Post#4293 at 10-25-2011 01:47 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
I'm both a skeptic and a data junkie. When I see/hear the latest "solution" from the Right and the data (e.g., number of media hits) clearly shows that "soltuion" (get rid of regulation) was no where in sight until the previous solution (cut the budget) failed miserable, I'm somewhat skeptical.
Well all I can say is I hope you will exercise your skepticism when you hear the latest "solution" from the left as well. You know, trillion dollar platinum coins and the like.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#4294 at 10-25-2011 01:57 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Well all I can say is I hope you will exercise your skepticism when you hear the latest "solution" from the left as well. You know, trillion dollar platinum coins and the like.

James50
I like PW's posts on MMT, but much of the rest is Establishment daftness.

I'm no enemy of regulation, but I do think a good house-cleaning is in order, get rid of stupid and outdated regulations, get rid of contradictions, and clear up the legalese so it's easier to understand.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#4295 at 10-25-2011 02:03 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I'm no enemy of regulation, but I do think a good house-cleaning is in order, get rid of stupid and outdated regulations, get rid of contradictions, and clear up the legalese so it's easier to understand.
The problem is that getting rid of regulations means an increase in risk (assuming most regulations have an actual purpose). No bureaucrat is ever going to sign off on an increase in risk no matter how small. It would mean potential personal liability which there is no incentive to risk. The regulatory process only moves in one direction.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#4296 at 10-25-2011 02:05 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I like PW's posts on MMT, but much of the rest is Establishment daftness.

I'm no enemy of regulation, but I do think a good house-cleaning is in order, get rid of stupid and outdated regulations, get rid of contradictions, and clear up the legalese so it's easier to understand.
Well, thank you, Odin. I'm sure a lot of my Establishment daftness James would agree with- we may have differences on what bath water to throw out but I think we both share a basic fondness for the baby.

I agree with your nice summary on regulation, however. Of course, the devil is in the detail - one man's over-regulation is another's insufficent regulation - that's why those damn things can run up to thousands of pages.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


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If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4297 at 10-25-2011 02:52 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Not to worry, James. PW is a firm believer in the primacy of Official Statistics over mere empirical fact.
What is "empirical fact?"

In the context of this conversation, it sounds like you may be giving priority to anecdotal evidence over survey information. Am I understanding this correctly? If so, why do you see statistical information as less valuable?







Post#4298 at 10-25-2011 03:04 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Only because the TP was quickly hijacked by the Establishment and so was allowed positive media coverage by the Elites.
The Tea Party was never hijacked by the establishment. It has drawn support from elements of the Republican establishment, which is a differnet thing, such as the Koch brothers. I do not think this has led Tea Party members to do anything or support anything they do not believe in. Nor has the Tea Party gotten positive media coverage from the msm. It has gotten a lot of media coverage. The hundreds of people who have taken the time to contact me to thank me for pointing out (so they thought) that Obama is the new Hitler did not have to be goaded by corporate interests to do so.

Odin, beware the Marxist doctrine of false consciousness, which you appear to have taken to heart. Your definition of "astroturf" seems to be "any popular movement I do not agree with." There's no use kidding ourselves about our fellow citizens.

Thomas Paine was a radical by the standards of the American revolution, and thus by 1800 he was revered by the Jeffersonians and excoriated by the Hamiltonians.







Post#4299 at 10-25-2011 03:54 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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10-25-2011, 03:54 PM #4299
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Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
What is "empirical fact?"

In the context of this conversation, it sounds like you may be giving priority to anecdotal evidence over survey information. Am I understanding this correctly? If so, why do you see statistical information as less valuable?
Well that depends on your perspective. Some folks (like investors) prefer data. Some folks on the other hand (like scientists), prefer information. Surveys and graphs are data but not information. It is important to recognize the difference and the relation between the two.
Last edited by Copperfield; 10-25-2011 at 03:56 PM.







Post#4300 at 10-25-2011 04:59 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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10-25-2011, 04:59 PM #4300
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
... I'm no enemy of regulation, but I do think a good house-cleaning is in order, get rid of stupid and outdated regulations, get rid of contradictions, and clear up the legalese so it's easier to understand.
The problem is that getting rid of regulations means an increase in risk (assuming most regulations have an actual purpose). No bureaucrat is ever going to sign off on an increase in risk no matter how small. It would mean potential personal liability which there is no incentive to risk. The regulatory process only moves in one direction.

James50
There are really two issues here. First, there is a pendulum that swings with the change in administration. A little consistency would make the regulatory environment a lot more predictable. Second, there is an Us v. Them attitude that permeates the entire process on both sides. The regulators are adversarial, but the regulated are too. That also needs to be fixed. The problem is, the department that should be acting as an agent for business, is only interested in large businesses. Let Exxon-Mobile fend for itself, and shift the support focus down scale. There should be a single point of contact that represents the interests of businesses interacting with government and assists the agencies in their interactions in the other direction.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
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