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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 197







Post#4901 at 12-06-2011 10:40 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Alioth68 View Post
50,000, versus how many hundreds of thousands or millions with a single nuclear weapon of that time period on Hanoi? But of course, American lives are more valuable than civilian lives of the "enemy" nation. They're Exceptional!

How many people in Hanoi would have deserved getting vaporized or irradiated? Oh, but teh communism was going to knock down dominoes all the way to the shores of California if we didn't do something there, right? That doesn't just look ridiculous in hindsight, either--many people at that time were dubious about the whole idea, and the dubiosity grew as the war progressed. But Eisenhower warned us about certain people getting their way regardless.... So, especially in light of that dubiosity, I don't think it was a cause worthy of using a nuke. I cannot really think of any that would be, as far as a first strike goes. Whether or not the Soviets would have responded in kind (if they would have, that mistake would've bit our own ass pretty badly, wouldn't it?)--even if not, it would have been an atrocity just the same.

Of course, as implied somewhat above, I thought the whole war was a dubious venture, so that even one life lost to it was too many.
Back then, it was fighting communism. Now the message is that we must fight terrorism. Even if it means that we become the terrorists. It's a shame that we don't put the faces of our loved ones on the faces of those precious lives that are considered collateral damage.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#4902 at 12-06-2011 01:41 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
A great many liberals here and elsewhere are convinced that the Tea Party are simply manipulated by the Republican establishment. That theory, in which I do not believe, is about to be put to the test. The Republican Party and its media arms have created a monster that is about to devour them. Newt Gingrich is hated by just about everyone who knows him at all well--including Ann Coulter!--but he looks an increasingly good bet to be nominated. A great many of my Republican friends are quite depressed about it--but they have only themselves to blame.

Nate Silver gets into the "whys" of this here. Interesting piece.

I've been a bit befuddled by the GOP putting up 1st string candidates in '08 when even Ron Ray-gun would have likely lost; and putting up, at best, 3rd stringers in 2012 when it should have been a cakewalk for the GOP candidate over Obama.

I think Krugman gets to the truth of the matter - the candidates reflect the level of 'thinking' in their base -

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/op...rssnyt&emc=rss

Send in the Clueless
.
.
The larger point, however, is that whoever finally gets the Republican nomination will be a deeply flawed candidate. And these flaws wont be an accident, the result of bad luck regarding who chose to make a run this time around; the fact that the party is committed to demonstrably false beliefs means that only fakers or the befuddled can get through the selection process.
.
.
He goes on to what that means should the GOP capture the Presidency - what happens when the dog actually catches the car it is chasing. Not pretty.

However, what he doesn't note is that the true cluelessnes of today knows no political boundary. Right now, the only thing keeping the economy from sinking into contraction again is net federal government spending. And yet, it is very hard to find any one across the entire political spectrum that doesn't bow down and worship the false anti-deficit gods through tax increases, spending cuts or austerity regardless of any rational logic as to how that would grow the economy.

It really simple comes down to us getting what we deserve. Ignorance wants ignorant leaders.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#4903 at 12-06-2011 02:14 PM by radind [at Alabama joined Sep 2009 #posts 1,595]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Jonathan Alter, the long-time Newsweek correspondent now with Bloomberg, was a student of mine many years ago and we have remained close. He heard the following story from John McCain, covering McCain in 2000.

McCain was running for Senate for the first time and Goldwater was his campaign manager. Goldwater began speculating about what would have happened had he won in 1964. "You know, John," he said, "if I'd won, you'd never have had to spend all those years in a North Vietnamese prison camp."

McCain smiled. "You're right, Barry," he said. "If you'd won, I would have spent them in a Chinese prison camp."
My view is that wars should be avoided if at all possible. If not, then we should only go to war when our national interests are at stake. Then we should fight the war to win. Johnson's strategy for the Vietnam war was terribly flawed. We can only speculate what would have happened if Goldwater had been president.







Post#4904 at 12-07-2011 11:05 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by radind View Post
My view is that wars should be avoided if at all possible. If not, then we should only go to war when our national interests are at stake. Then we should fight the war to win. Johnson's strategy for the Vietnam war was terribly flawed. We can only speculate what would have happened if Goldwater had been president.
I'll give you a break for not being around then, but think for a minute. Red China, and it was in full Maoist regalia at that time, was just north of Vietnam. It was also just north of Korea in the '50s, and we know how that war turned on a dime when thye decided to pit waves of soldiers against modern arms. Second, and no less important, the Soviets still held sway too ... and they had as many nukes as we did.

So you can forget about a nuclear war. It was never in the cards, and if it had been, we wouldn't be here talking about it.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4905 at 12-07-2011 12:53 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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It was briefly in the cards in 1962. Thankfully, President Kennedy ignored his hawkish advisers and decided to compromise after a show of strength.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#4906 at 12-07-2011 12:56 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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The President's speech yesterday in Kansas took a huge step in the right direction. Although he channeled Teddy Roosevelt (I don't know why he's afraid of FDR), he sounded like FDR. It took him only three years to get where FDR was when he was inaugurated! However, better late than never, and he laid out a good set of ideas for the campaign.







Post#4907 at 12-07-2011 01:03 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
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I found the President's speech encouraging.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#4908 at 12-07-2011 01:16 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
The President's speech yesterday in Kansas took a huge step in the right direction. Although he channeled Teddy Roosevelt (I don't know why he's afraid of FDR), he sounded like FDR. It took him only three years to get where FDR was when he was inaugurated! However, better late than never, and he laid out a good set of ideas for the campaign.
This smells like strategy by image consultant. Position yourself along side one of your opponent's heroes. Dare him to take a shot.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#4909 at 12-07-2011 01:44 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
This smells like strategy by image consultant. Position yourself along side one of your opponent's heroes. Dare him to take a shot.
You're behind the times. TR is Glenn Beck's number one hate figure--he ragged on Newt the other day for having praised him.







Post#4910 at 12-07-2011 01:49 PM by TeddyR [at joined Aug 2011 #posts 998]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
TR is Glenn Beck's number one hate figure....
TR was a progressive and Glenn Beck thinks progressism is inherently evil.

Bully!







Post#4911 at 12-07-2011 01:57 PM by TeddyR [at joined Aug 2011 #posts 998]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
This smells like strategy by image consultant. Position yourself along side one of your opponent's heroes. Dare him to take a shot.
The genesis of this idea was discussed here:

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...035#post410035







Post#4912 at 12-07-2011 02:31 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Obama demonstrated long ago that he can talk the talk. I'm still waiting for him to demonstrate that he can also walk the walk.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#4913 at 12-07-2011 03:42 PM by katsung47 [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 289]
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Ron Paul Still Ignored - Jon Stewart Daily Show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B0QPcoTZg8&feature=player_embedded







Post#4914 at 12-07-2011 03:47 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
I've been a bit befuddled by the GOP putting up 1st string candidates in '08 when even Ron Ray-gun would have likely lost; and putting up, at best, 3rd stringers in 2012 when it should have been a cakewalk for the GOP candidate over Obama.
America missed a Silent Presidency, and I can think of some GOP Silent (John Warner, Richard Lugar, George Voinovich, maybe Colin Powell) who would have been far better than Dubya. That is the problem. The Republicans got a second-string pol barely elected with chicanery and got away with it. What happened was that the GOP cultivated the votes of the superstitious, undereducated, fear-driven, and mean-spirited while failing to elevate the awareness of such voters. Dubya almost invariably preferred a convenient falsehood to a disconcerting reality and set a tone for low expectations for the electorate.

I think Krugman gets to the truth of the matter - the candidates reflect the level of 'thinking' in their base -

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/op...rssnyt&emc=rss

He goes on to what that means should the GOP capture the Presidency - what happens when the dog actually catches the car it is chasing. Not pretty.
But here is the problem -- the fools eventually get increasingly out of touch with reality. Worse, they ratify the pablum that they are spoon-fed, and they insist upon more of it even if it makes them malnourished. It's like cornbread -- it is tasty, but you cannot live on it without getting health problems. People not sold on the pablum reject it.

However, what he doesn't note is that the true cluelessnes of today knows no political boundary. Right now, the only thing keeping the economy from sinking into contraction again is net federal government spending. And yet, it is very hard to find any one across the entire political spectrum that doesn't bow down and worship the false anti-deficit gods through tax increases, spending cuts or austerity regardless of any rational logic as to how that would grow the economy.
Habits that Americans have practiced for as long as anyone knows -- indeed, going back to at least the latter part of the 19th century and thus beyond the memory of any living persons -- create a snare for us. We expect compromise to work... but there is no good result from compromise with extremists. Successful compromise depends upon the opposing sides recognizing the legitimacy of the other side. No compromise is possible between liberals and either Commies or fascists who seek the eventual and complete obliteration of any opposition, and no viable compromise between slave-owners and abolitionists was easily available in 1861. (The British solution of buying the freedom of the slaves might have been what Lincoln wanted -- but the Southrons would have never accepted anything that challenged their "sacred" way of life).

It really simple comes down to us getting what we deserve. Ignorance wants ignorant leaders.
Ignorance must prove itself a failure as such and not simple 'fate' or 'luck'.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#4915 at 12-07-2011 04:18 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Tone70 View Post
I found the President's speech encouraging.
I always found Obama's *speeches* encouraging, it was his actions that discouraged me.

Talk is cheap. Actions are the gauge of true character.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#4916 at 12-07-2011 04:22 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
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I can't argue with you.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#4917 at 12-07-2011 09:03 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Talk is cheep. I want to see actual progressive POLICY from Obama.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#4918 at 12-07-2011 09:38 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Talk is cheep. I want to see actual progressive POLICY from Obama.
Your talking my language.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#4919 at 12-07-2011 10:31 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Talk is cheep. I want to see actual progressive POLICY from Obama.
So do I. However, I would still much prefer him in the White House for four more years to the obvious alternatives in any case. . .







Post#4920 at 12-07-2011 10:37 PM by TeddyR [at joined Aug 2011 #posts 998]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
So do I. However, I would still much prefer him in the White House for four more years to the obvious alternatives in any case. . .
What, Rick Perry doesn't seem reasonable? Like in this new hateful commercial:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMfVqGBE6JI&sns=em







Post#4921 at 12-07-2011 10:45 PM by TeddyR [at joined Aug 2011 #posts 998]
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I am rethinking that last comment after seeing this endorsement of Perry:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljvyaqa5Mfo&sns=em


She might be right, although I have no idea what she said.







Post#4922 at 12-07-2011 11:03 PM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Quote Originally Posted by TeddyR View Post
I am rethinking that last comment after seeing this endorsement of Perry:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljvyaqa5Mfo&sns=em


She might be right, although I have no idea what she said.
Interesting. For some reason I expected her to be topless by the of the video.
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#4923 at 12-07-2011 11:05 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Check out Coulter's latest column, about Newt. There's obviously something going on here and I am extremely curious about what it might be. She usually reserves language like that for Democrats.







Post#4924 at 12-07-2011 11:55 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Check out Coulter's latest column, about Newt. There's obviously something going on here and I am extremely curious about what it might be. She usually reserves language like that for Democrats.
I believe that the "professional GOP" types like Coulter see the possibility of a reverse redux of the 1972 election outcome as likely if newt gets the nomination.
The "professional conservative" like Limbaugh must at lest for now pretend to be happy with where the remains of the rightist populism from the 2010 midterm has landed.
It may take a while for all of them to sing from the same hymnal again.
Last edited by herbal tee; 12-08-2011 at 12:02 AM.







Post#4925 at 12-08-2011 12:01 AM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Quote Originally Posted by millennialX View Post
Interesting. For some reason I expected her to be topless by the of the video.
And what was with the image rotating between color and a black and white image?
Or was that a technical problem with my modom?
But yeah, she was dumb as a stump, but she had a balcony you could do Shakespere off of. :
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