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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 212







Post#5276 at 12-25-2011 03:13 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
OK, OK, OK, I shot my mouth off on Paul without thinking. But still, it doesn't speak well at his managerial abilities if his subordinates can get away with printing bigoted things.
I agree. No it doesn't.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#5277 at 12-26-2011 09:34 AM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
OK, OK, OK, I shot my mouth off on Paul without thinking. But still, it doesn't speak well at his managerial abilities if his subordinates can get away with printing bigoted things.

Or given the timing of most of these quotes, he was likely pandering to the nutso militia types.
I have thought Paul was a charming old coot with the guts to express non-mainstream views on foreign policy. But I have no sympathy for his position on the newsletters whatever. Have you ever heard of command responsibility? He employed these bigots and nutcases, he let them write his newsletters, and he let them go out. He didn't sit and listen to Jeremiah Wright, he was Jeremiah Wright, in print,. if you see what I mean. I don't believe anything he says anymore.
Last edited by KaiserD2; 12-26-2011 at 10:13 AM.







Post#5278 at 12-26-2011 10:13 AM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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This excellent article by E. J. Dionne, , the Washington Post's remaining resident liberal, does a good job (with help from Newt Gingrich) of putting this election in 4T context, but also reinforces my basic point about it: that Obama is fighting to keep us in the sad place that we are and to prevent them from getting worse.







Post#5279 at 12-26-2011 11:13 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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I find it extremely interesting when it comes to Democrats who make excuses for Obama surrounding himself with banksters but want Ron Paul held accountable for his assistants.

Can we say *double standard*?
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5280 at 12-26-2011 11:24 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Whether it was pandering or negligence, it happened 20 years go.
Obama, on the other hand, CONTINUES to appoint Monsanto execs to oversee governmental regulatory agencies.
If a Republican president did what Obama has done, and is doing, Democrats would be in an uproar.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5281 at 12-26-2011 11:33 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
This excellent article by E. J. Dionne, , the Washington Post's remaining resident liberal, does a good job (with help from Newt Gingrich) of putting this election in 4T context, but also reinforces my basic point about it: that Obama is fighting to keep us in the sad place that we are and to prevent them from getting worse.
Just a nit, but Eugene Robinson, Colbert King, and Harold Myerson are also progressives and either Post employees or regular columnists.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#5282 at 12-26-2011 11:41 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
This excellent article by E. J. Dionne, , the Washington Post's remaining resident liberal, does a good job (with help from Newt Gingrich) of putting this election in 4T context, but also reinforces my basic point about it: that Obama is fighting to keep us in the sad place that we are and to prevent them from getting worse.
From the article:

At a moment when the nation wonders whether politicians can agree on anything, here is something that unites the Republican presidential candidates — and all of them with President Obama: Everyone agrees that the 2012 election will be a turning point involving one of the most momentous choices in U.S. history.
This is such hogwash. I suppose anything is possible, but I put the chances of an inconsequential election at something like 80%. No matter who wins, the filibuster will prevent any dramatic change.

James50
Last edited by James50; 12-26-2011 at 11:44 AM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#5283 at 12-26-2011 11:49 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Here's a group that owns the severity of NDAA and are holding the Senators who voted in favor of shredding of our bill of rights, accountable.

This is a huge major issue that has been swept under the rug by way too many of us. Again, if this had happened under a Republican watch, there would be sounds of Democratic outrage. But..............

Montanans Launch Recalls of Senators Who Approved NDAA Military Dentention


Montana residents William Crain and Stewart Rhodes are spearheading the drive. Mr. Crain is an artist. Mr. Rhodes is an attorney, Yale Law School graduate, and the national president of the organization Oath Keepers, who are military and law enforcement officers, both former and active duty, who vow to uphold their Oath to the US Constitution and to disobey illegal orders which constitute attacks on their fellow citizens. Rhodes said:
"These politicians from both parties betrayed our trust, and violated the oath they took to defend the Constitution. It's not about the left or right, it's about our Bill of Rights. Without the Bill of Rights, there is no America. It is the Crown Jewel of our Constitution, and the high-water mark of Western Civilization."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1...tmas-US-Senate
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5284 at 12-26-2011 11:50 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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"Two time Medal of Honor winner Marine General Smedley Butler once said "There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights." Time to fight. "
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5285 at 12-26-2011 12:09 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Can we say *double standard*?
Apparently some of us can't. More's the pity.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

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is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#5286 at 12-26-2011 12:10 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
From the article:


This is such hogwash. I suppose anything is possible, but I put the chances of an inconsequential election at something like 80%. No matter who wins, the filibuster will prevent any dramatic change.

James50
Not to pick nits, but Dionne didn't definitely say it was true. He said all the candidates say it's true. And based on the experience of the Bush years, the Democrats would never use the filibuster the way the Republicans have done for the last three years, simply because they understand the government has to function. So I think a Republican victory would have truly serious consequences.

In my opinion the consequential election turned out to be 2000. . . . .







Post#5287 at 12-26-2011 12:22 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Not to pick nits, but Dionne didn't definitely say it was true. He said all the candidates say it's true. And based on the experience of the Bush years, the Democrats would never use the filibuster the way the Republicans have done for the last three years, simply because they understand the government has to function. So I think a Republican victory would have truly serious consequences.

In my opinion the consequential election turned out to be 2000. . . . .
1968, 1980, 1994, and 2000 (all conservative victories) were probably the most consequential elections in my voting lifetime. I think it highly unlikely 2012 will be in that league.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#5288 at 12-26-2011 12:44 PM by TeddyR [at joined Aug 2011 #posts 998]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
1968, 1980, 1994, and 2000 (all conservative victories) were probably the most consequential elections in my voting lifetime. I think it highly unlikely 2012 will be in that league.

James50
I am enjoying the debate you and the Professor are having spread over a few threads. It is a microcosm of the greater debate in the US. You have both made some very good points. In particular, James' firsthand account on the hyper regulatory shakedown culture was excellent.

2012 will be the critical election of our time, if you buy into the 4T theory. We are very close to the regeneracy, likely not more than five years away. The position of President is never more influential than during the regeneracy. We the people are most open to Presidential leadership during the regeneracy. The office becomes like a super-President. It is during these times in the past that Presidents have taken on powers not granted in the constitution.

We have been fortunate to not have potential despots (like Newt) in the office in past regeneracies.







Post#5289 at 12-26-2011 12:57 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by TeddyR View Post
2012 will be the critical election of our time, if you buy into the 4T theory. We are very close to the regeneracy, likely not more than five years away. The position of President is never more influential than during the regeneracy. We the people are most open to Presidential leadership during the regeneracy. The office becomes like a super-President. It is during these times in the past that Presidents have taken on powers not granted in the constitution.
If David is right, we have already had our "regeneracy" in the first term of GWB. Perhaps he and I are like old professors who have seen the ebb and flow of electoral politics for too long and have developed too much of an air of cynicism about what is truly possible. At any rate, we do not elect kings and what any particular President can accomplish is severely circumscribed by circumstances, our system, and our long history. These limitations on Presidential power are at the heart of the disappoint in Obama.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#5290 at 12-26-2011 01:52 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
If David is right, we have already had our "regeneracy" in the first term of GWB. Perhaps he and I are like old professors who have seen the ebb and flow of electoral politics for too long and have developed too much of an air of cynicism about what is truly possible. At any rate, we do not elect kings and what any particular President can accomplish is severely circumscribed by circumstances, our system, and our long history. These limitations on Presidential power are at the heart of the disappoint in Obama.

James50
But it is a false regeneracy -- the sort that shakes things up and introduces new pathologies while solving nothing.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#5291 at 12-26-2011 02:04 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
But it is a false regeneracy -- the sort that shakes things up and introduces new pathologies while solving nothing.
Like what happened in 1920... :whistles:

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#5292 at 12-26-2011 04:05 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
But it is a false regeneracy -- the sort that shakes things up and introduces new pathologies while solving nothing.
Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Like what happened in 1920... :whistles:

~Chas'88
Or. . .more to the point. .. like what happened in 1868.

I have said the crisis began in 2001. I have never called what happened under GWB a "regeneracy," hence, "The Regeneracy Will Not Be Televised." I might call it a mutation which will last a long time, to extend the organic metaphor a bit. In any case, Bush certainly changed the role of the government and our economy, profoundly, accelerating trends that had been going on for decades, and he talked like a grey champion.

James and I agree more than most here about where the country is and where it seems to be going, although we certainly have very different feelings about much of it. I have to say, though, James, that I don't think GWB was very troubled by limitations on Presidential power and he got a huge amount of what he wanted out of Congress, which was Republican for about 4 years of his term.
Last edited by KaiserD2; 12-26-2011 at 04:09 PM.







Post#5293 at 12-26-2011 04:19 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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A mutation? More like a reactionary return to the past, to the Gilded Age.







Post#5294 at 12-26-2011 06:40 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Or. . .more to the point. .. like what happened in 1868.

I have said the crisis began in 2001. I have never called what happened under GWB a "regeneracy," hence, "The Regeneracy Will Not Be Televised." I might call it a mutation which will last a long time, to extend the organic metaphor a bit. In any case, Bush certainly changed the role of the government and our economy, profoundly, accelerating trends that had been going on for decades, and he talked like a grey champion.

James and I agree more than most here about where the country is and where it seems to be going, although we certainly have very different feelings about much of it. I have to say, though, James, that I don't think GWB was very troubled by limitations on Presidential power and he got a huge amount of what he wanted out of Congress, which was Republican for about 4 years of his term.
I arill think that the timing is off -- way off -- for a Crisis Era beginning in 2001. The response to the 9/11 attack was nothing like that immediately following the Confederate attack on Fort Sumter, let alone the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. There might have been comparisons to both at the time but those faded quickly. Can you imagine FDR telling people to go on a buying binge or fostering luxury construction?

The generational cycle does not quite jibe with an event near the start (Fort Sumter attack) or near the end (Pearl Harbor -- the war would be over in less than four years and so would the Crisis). If the youngest of the adult Adaptive generation were 82 (Progressive) in 1941 and 70 (Compromise) in 1861, the youngest of an adult Adaptive generation in 2011 were 59 (Silent) in 2001. If the Progressive Generation was irrelevant in 1941 and the Compromise Generation had lost it in 1861, the Silent Generation was far from through. Even ten years later the Silent Generation is far from through in public life. The Vice-President is Joe Biden; the last Republican nominee for President is John McCain; Nancy Pelosi since became Speaker of the House and could well be Speaker again. To be sure those are late-wave Silent figures, but as I have noted elsewhere, the Silent have imitated some of the good habits of the GIs.

Speaking of the GI Generation -- even they still had some political significance in 2001. That of course is over. So is the influence of the early-wave Silent. But the Silent stay active, connected, and involved, just like the GIs did. They act as if "70 is the new 55" and can get away with it because they are in better shape than the Progressives (or even the Lost) at like age.

The Double-Zero Decade looks much like the 1920s except that the 1920s were a time of comparative peace for America. The novels of Sinclair Lewis won new relevance in the Double-Zero Decade with such characters as George Babbitt and Elmer Gantry returning, so to speak, from the literary grave. Economic inequality intensified to similar levels... and the economic bubble of both times imploded. Weak government of questionable competence largely concurred with the desires of Big Business. Unions shrank, and non-elite income lagged behind productivity.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 12-26-2011 at 09:25 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#5295 at 12-26-2011 08:09 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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I am going to be very frank because what you did in that post is a popular tactic. Many of us, including me at one time, have desperately read the book to say that things will come out as we have wished in the end. That gives us an investment in a certain outcome, and if the outcome hasn't shown any signs of turning up yet, it gives one an interest in claiming that the 4T has only just begun. And the use of selective numbers to argue, oh, it can't be that far along yet, is another form of the same phenomenon. I would note that the youngest Boomers in 2001 were older than the youngest Transcendentals in 1861, barely.

I am basing my argument on what I see before my eyes. One obvious point is that Boomers have clearly passed the peak of their influence already. Another is that GWB was the only President who had a sense of what a crisis was and how he wanted to use it. (His goals, I agree, were pathetic, but they were serious for him all the same). Another and most important is that the Boom generation simply didn't have what it takes to produce the kind of regeneracy that the Missionaries brought about. My new book will, I hope, convince more of you of that. (It's a ways off yet.) And the last, most important point, is that the only political force on the horizon genuinely trying to transform America are conservative Republicans. I think their transformation may have gone as far as it can go, but there's nothing out there on the other side that's comparable at all.

The 1920s had nothing, nothing in common with the 00s from a foreign policy point of view. We were at peace. That's one huge difference right there. Then we have the accident, as has been pointed out, of the left-wing party taking the brunt of the economic crisis, not the right-wing one. That has already had huge political consequences (1930 and 2010.) Obama may be re-elected but with neither the mandate, nor the majorities, nor the will to start a new transformation of America.







Post#5296 at 12-26-2011 10:01 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Of course Boomer influence is on the wane. Bureaucratic influence peaks in the fifties for those who have careers as bureaucrats. Boomers (many who had well-paying jobs that they thought they were doing well) are often being shown the way out the doors of their companies -- often by fellow Boomers -- with the aid of the economic bad time. Political causes like the Religious Right that are almost-entirely Boomer in composition are on the wane because the Grim Reaper takes an accelerating share of people as they go through their 50s and 60s. Any political cause that depends upon Boomers for mass support is clearly weakening even if Boom leaders do not drink like fish and smoke like chimneys.

As Generation X enters its fifties it will increasingly reach the apex of power in bureaucratic organizations from police forces and church hierarchies to giant corporations. I expect Generation X to change things so that Boomer ways of recent years become less reliable as ways to get things done. I expect Generation X to try to simplify the methods of problem-solving. Think of the style of the disposal of Osama bin Laden: it looked much like a gangland hit. Because of the person dispatched, few are going to call it a crime.

Nothing says that Boomers are through. It may be that the coalition (economic elites, neocon militarists, and religious fundamentalists) that led us in the Double-Zero decade is on the way out as much due to its ethical failure as well as its inability to cultivate a legacy in younger admirers. But its ideals were weak anyway, and it let people fall for the easiest tendencies in human nature. I can see other Boomer coalitions forming based on ideals and principles. Maybe America is in need of someone more like Mohandas Gandhi than like Newt Gingrich. How do we deal with a permanent slowdown in efficiencies of scale? How do we get a more equitable distribution of the fruits of our efforts? How do we prevent the more rapid depletion of resources and the ravaging of the environment? How do we have a strong economy based on something other than population growth? How do we prevent catastrophic wars over the usual objects of aggressive war (resources on the cheap, cheap labor, and control of markets)?

It is not up to the two younger adult generations to answer those questions; they will be the administrators, entrepreneurs, and doers. The Boomer leadership that got us into the economic debacle of the latter part of the Double-Zero decade no longer has moral authority. Everyone else in the Boom generation who has some imagination, credibility, and decency still has a chance. In the last 4T the Missionary leadership consisted heavily of conservationists, Western agrarians, feminists, and members of aspiring ethnic and religious minorities. There can be a wholesome parallel to that this time.

America did well in World War
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#5297 at 12-26-2011 10:25 PM by TeddyR [at joined Aug 2011 #posts 998]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
I expect Generation X to try to simplify the methods of problem-solving. Think of the style of the disposal of Osama bin Laden: it looked much like a gangland hit. Because of the person dispatched, few are going to call it a crime.
Do you think it was a crime?

I agree that the approach is changing. I have no doubt we are attacking Iran with covert agents now. The "shock and awe" approach is not in favor.







Post#5298 at 12-26-2011 10:45 PM by Tristan [at Melbourne, Australia joined Oct 2003 #posts 1,249]
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Forgive myself for being an ignorant Aussie, however this Crisis is truly a global event (even if not all the world is on our saeculum). For the rest of the western world (Oceania and Europe) the Global Financial Crisis which started in 2008 was very likely the 4T trigger.

So the regeneracy has likely has not come yet, that is especially true of Australia. Here people know that our whole institutional structure needs to be overhauled, however action has yet to be taken and I dont think it will be for some time (probably for another 5 years). Maybe the 4T was triggered by an earlier event in the USA, however I doubt it was 9/11.

If 9/11 had occurred now and GW Bush was president the whole response to it would have been entirely different to what had happened. I would broadly agree with David Kaiser's observations of GW Bush playing the grey champion role after 9/11, however it was behavior uncharacteristic of the season of history which 9/11 occurred in which was the unraveling.
Last edited by Tristan; 12-26-2011 at 10:49 PM.
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Post#5299 at 12-26-2011 11:08 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Gen X are good at carrying out tasks. I don't think they are going to show much talent for giving institutions--much less the whole government--a new direction. It's not what Nomads do.







Post#5300 at 12-27-2011 12:49 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
I find it extremely interesting when it comes to Democrats who make excuses for Obama surrounding himself with banksters but want Ron Paul held accountable for his assistants.

Can we say *double standard*?
I agree with both you and David about Ron Paul. But I may end up voting for Obama this year, if there's no credible other candidate. It would probably have to be Green too. But we'll see. Since 2004 I have concluded that Americans are not ready or able to vote correctly enough for a genuinely good candidate to have any chance. It is a sad conclusion, but in the wake of 2004 and 2010, what else can I conclude? Americans are a truly deceived and sorry lot. Obama is about the best we can ever expect to get in our lifetimes.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece
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