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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 225







Post#5601 at 01-10-2012 09:06 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
It's a regret that I will most likely repeat, considering the Looney Toons alternative. I sound like an abused spouse don't I?
No, you don't. You sound realistic. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing.







Post#5602 at 01-10-2012 09:13 PM by summer in the fall [at joined Jul 2011 #posts 1,540]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
It's a regret that I will most likely repeat, considering the Looney Toons alternative. I sound like an abused spouse don't I?
Just glad you're not looking forward to the GOP packing our courts anymore. That's abuse...

Best...







Post#5603 at 01-10-2012 09:58 PM by Tristan [at Melbourne, Australia joined Oct 2003 #posts 1,249]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
How can a same, reasonable person like you have a positive opinion of a fanatical sex-obsessed bigot?

The only sane ones in the whole GOP bunch are Romney and Huntsman, and Huntman is the only one who is a decent human being.
I would agree with you, the interesting thing is that only decent GOP candidates are Mormons.
"The f****** place should be wiped off the face of the earth".

David Bowie on Los Angeles







Post#5604 at 01-11-2012 12:23 AM by TeddyR [at joined Aug 2011 #posts 998]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
You can say all you want about Newt Gingrich, but calling him a joke is itself a joke.
Millie is right this time, he is a joke.

GOP has one quality person running --- he will never be nominated though. He is a Mormon, but his first name is not Willard.







Post#5605 at 01-11-2012 12:45 AM by antichrist [at I'm in the Big City now, boy! joined Sep 2003 #posts 1,655]
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It's been a very long day and I am totally zonked, so please pardon me for being brief, but I will mention a couple things.

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
I certainly am not in total disagreement but I see a more complicated picture. And I don't understand several of your specific points.

The Democrats have certainly collaborated in creating the political/economic system we have now, ever since the 1990s at least, and Obama and co. have shown very little desire actually to transform it. But they at least want to keep things roughly where they are, with Social Security, Medicare, and a mildly progressive taxation system, while the Republicans are determined to make them much worse and will surely do so if tehy get the chance. Meanwhile, the Democrats honestly believe in progressive stances on social issues while the Republicans would rather create a theocracy, a complete novelty in American history. I think the parties will clearly have a different impact, even though neither will have the kind of impact I would like to see.
I sometimes wonder however if avoiding repubs' use of markets at all costs doesn't sometimes blind dems to unforeseen consequences. As in "as long as we intend to do the right thing, it will be ok." I'm thinking aspects of the housing bubble (though certainly not all of it), student loans driving high tuitions (which as soon as I bring up, a dem thinks I dont want working class kids to go to school), and so on.

Also, it should go without saying that they can shove their theocracy where their dominion don't shine. IMHO
Unless you equate imprisoning people with welfare, I don't see how you can call the war on drugs a welfare program. I agree that it is horribly wasteful, destructive, and bipartisan, but it ain't welfare.
Sorry, I wasn't being clear. Welfare for the prison guards, the DEA, ATF, local cops everywhere, but at the cost of imprisonment rates out of line with our first world peers. And a sociologist might ask how much of that prison fodder comes from the lower classes.


I am in the middle of Ron Suskind's new book, Confidence Men, about economic policy in the Obama Administration. It terrified the Administration which went on a campaign to kill its reception, which appears to have been quite successful. It shows that Obama picked an establishment economic team and did more or less whatever they wanted--and that he can't manage the big egos around him. Very sad.
I also mentioned consumer protection. Of course we all recognize that drugs are not made prescription because they might hurt the uneducated user right? Current milk regulations ensure prohibitively high startup costs for any new dairy. Chasing down Amish farmers for selling raw milk to hippies helps me how? And forbidding the sale of little kids' lemonade stands saves me from food poisoning?

I have the same frustrations with the right. I can hardly disagree with the argument that the kind of free market policies pursued by the current repubs have caused us a mountain of pain. I've said it elsewhere, but it's worth saying again. Why does conservatism naturally equate to ayn rand fuedalism? The answer is it doesn't, because you could have an economy full of populist, grassroots capitalists. They would be completely un-alienated in Marx's sense. That's easily within the realm of an intellectually consistent right, but certainly out of the realm of the no-bid Halliburton right.
Last edited by antichrist; 01-11-2012 at 12:52 AM.







Post#5606 at 01-11-2012 01:22 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Romney did very well in his victory in NH speech. But it was amazing to me just how conventional it was. Good sentences and slogans, well delivered at least for him. Might give him a boost. Total traditional trickle-down economics from A to Z. Republicans have nothing else to offer but a many-times failed theory that appeals to certain peoples' greed and resentment, from a candidate who represents the essence of the 1%, a Wall Street investor (or wherever Bain capital was). And he fired people and sent their jobs overseas. He presents quite a target for Obama if he takes good aim at him.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...ler/?mobile=nc
Last edited by Eric the Green; 01-11-2012 at 02:57 AM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#5607 at 01-11-2012 01:50 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
If Newt Gingrich didn't exist, late night comics would have to invent him. This is what he said yesterday:

"Is capitalism really about the ability of a handful of rich people to manipulate the lives of thousands of other people and walk off with the money?"

Yes, Newt, and the Pope is Catholic.
Indeed; and Romney the most typical practitioner of the capitalist religion.

Meanwhile, Romney is now poised to wrap up the Republican nomination in short order--he will win hugely today and he is well ahead in both South Carolina and Florida. I do wonder what the Tea Party folk will do then. . .
Vote for Mitt, as they are already starting to do; he's talkin' their language.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#5608 at 01-11-2012 02:55 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
student loans driving high tuitions (which as soon as I bring up, a dem thinks I dont want working class kids to go to school), and so on.
I think it's the reverse; the high tuition drives student loans.
I also mentioned consumer protection. Of course we all recognize that drugs are not made prescription because they might hurt the uneducated user right? Current milk regulations ensure prohibitively high startup costs for any new dairy. Chasing down Amish farmers for selling raw milk to hippies helps me how?
I don't want to drink unsafe milk. Regulations are fine with me the way they are.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#5609 at 01-11-2012 09:13 AM by antichrist [at I'm in the Big City now, boy! joined Sep 2003 #posts 1,655]
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Precisely.







Post#5610 at 01-11-2012 09:28 AM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Meanwhile, Romney is now poised to wrap up the Republican nomination in short order--he will win hugely today and he is well ahead in both South Carolina and Florida. I do wonder what the Tea Party folk will do then. . .
I think if Ron Paul continues to be Romney's main opponent during the primaries, it will put Romney in an interesting and rather difficult position during the general election.

First let me say, I'm not surprised by Ron Paul's showing in Iowa and New Hampshire. The Libertarian party has been attracting more and more people in recent years and the younger set has been backing Paul for a while. It would not surprise me if the Libertarian party ends up having a louder voice in the Republican party than the Tea Party does. Although the Tea Party is pretty extreme when it comes to social issues they are no where as extreme as Ron Paul is when it comes to a lot of other issues. The Tea Party wants smaller government. Ron Paul almost wants no government.

So here becomes Romney's challenge in the general election. If a good chunk of his base is supporting the ideology of Ron Paul, he will have to adopt some of his stances in order to keep his base motivated to get out there and vote for him. However, a person running in a general election kind of needs be somewhat moderate to get the independents or even sway some moderate voters from the other party they are running against. There is nothing about Ron Paul that is remotely moderate. I would say of the all the Republican candidates running, Paul is the most extreme candidate of the bunch. His views on most things are so far from the mainstream, that most people wrote him off as a joke in the beginning. (I, personally, never really did, because I know just how popular the Libertarian party is becoming.) Even on this board, most of the Republican people who post identify more with the Libertarians than the Tea Party.







Post#5611 at 01-11-2012 10:07 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
I think it's the reverse; the high tuition drives student loans.
Yea, and high home prices drives the mortgage market.

Cheap credit always leads to bubbles.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#5612 at 01-11-2012 10:12 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
The Libertarian party has been attracting more and more people in recent years and the younger set has been backing Paul for a while.
Last night, my 24 old college graduate son announced to me that he is for Ron Paul. He is an affable type, and I thought of as pretty much apolitical. He said Paul is the only candidate who does not pander and seems to have actual reasons for what he believes. Apparently he has been watching youtube videos of Paul's speeches and liked what he heard.

Is this a youth movement? I told him my biggest problem with Paul was wanting to return to the gold standard. When I asked about Obama and Romney, he said he could not see much difference - calling them Obmaney.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#5613 at 01-11-2012 10:25 AM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
When I asked about Obama and Romney, he said he could not see much difference - calling them Obmaney.
From what I saw of Romney's victory speech last night, he seemed to be trying hard to be the un-Obama.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didnt replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#5614 at 01-11-2012 10:27 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Indeed; and Romney the most typical practitioner of the capitalist religion.



Vote for Mitt, as they are already starting to do; he's talkin' their language.
In one of the news casts last evening, a poll asked voters, many of them Tea Party members, why they would vote for Romney. The main reason stated, he is the most likely to beat Obama.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5615 at 01-11-2012 10:31 AM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Last night, my 24 old college graduate son announced to me that he is for Ron Paul. He is an affable type, and I thought of as pretty much apolitical. He said Paul is the only candidate who does not pander and seems to have actual reasons for what he believes. Apparently he has been watching youtube videos of Paul's speeches and liked what he heard.

Is this a youth movement? I told him my biggest problem with Paul was wanting to return to the gold standard. When I asked about Obama and Romney, he said he could not see much difference - calling them Obmaney.

James50
I would say that Paul or the Libertarians are more probably more of youth movement. But not just with the millies. The Xers are also very attracted to this party and Ron Paul. Where as the Tea Party is generally made up of older voters, the youngers one are identifying with the Libertarians. I even know of some people who were historically Democratic voters who are now switching over to the Libertarian party. Again, these are Xers.

Edit: But like you, James, I just can't get behind Paul either. Although I agree with some of the things he says. He is just too extreme in his sink or swim attitude. I think we do need at least some safety nets and I don't think we should just let people die if they can't afford treatment. Doesn't that go against the Hippocratic oath anyway and isn't he a doctor? Plus although I don't like paying taxes as much as the next person, I don't see how our government could possibly function if we abolished federal income taxes altogether.

What I think we are seeing here with the young people on both sides of the aisle is a feeling of wanting to throw out the old guard completely and that is why they are latching on to these non-traditional candidates. Remember the Ron Paul supporters were also down at OWS too. I think the younger people are so fed up with the ineffective, do nothing government we have and this where a lot of this is coming from. I can honestly see in the future more extreme candidates taking the lead whether we are talking the Dems or the Republicans. It probably won't play out as much during this election, but they are just now getting revved up. Give us another 4 years of what we have been seeing (regardless of whether Romney or Obama wins) with the gridlock and the BS in Washington and these non-traditional candidates are going to come roaring out the gate come the 2014 elections and really by the 2016 elections. If you think we have a circus now. Just wait.
Last edited by ASB65; 01-11-2012 at 11:07 AM.







Post#5616 at 01-11-2012 11:03 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Will Ron Paul go for a third party bid?

Paul is one of the only remaining candidates who can compete with Romney in the race for cash, largely due to his national base of ardent grassroots supporters. That poses a problem for any candidate looking to quickly lock up the nomination.

But it could also spell trouble in the general election. If Paul decides to run as a third-party candidate, he could siphon votes away from both parties. Such a run would provide a third choice for disaffected voters who want to protest President Barack Obama and his handling of the economy but who don't like Romney.
Paul told HuffPost's Howard Fineman earlier this week that he hadn't decided whether to launch a third party bid. "I'll decide that later,"
he said.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1195647.html
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#5617 at 01-11-2012 12:38 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
It would only work if he ran with a Dem.
Check this one out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py8cXlLyX18
And this is not all that real surprising to me either. I can see non-traditional candidates like Paul and Kuninich as team. You know the old saying about politics making strange bedfellows. After all, like I said, the Paul supporters were standing side by side with liberal protesters down at OWS. People are just so fed up with business as usual and they want real change. The younger generation wants nothing to do with the traditional politicians. Don't be surprised if we don't see in the coming years some sort of hybrid party combining both liberal and conservatives ideas. And they will be extreme ideas. And it will a youth movement. I do think although OWS got shut down, it planted the seeds and these young people are still pissed. This rise in popularity of Ron Paul with the younger generations is also planting the seeds. It will get more interesting in the coming years. Remember that the Republican party emerged right before the civil war because they had the similar situations in government that we have now. Bitter divides between the traditional parties and ineffective government.







Post#5618 at 01-11-2012 12:40 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
IGive us another 4 years of what we have been seeing (regardless of whether Romney or Obama wins) with the gridlock and the BS in Washington and these non-traditional candidates are going to come roaring out the gate come the 2014 elections and really by the 2016 elections. If you think we have a circus now. Just wait.
I think the upcoming election will be a non-event. There is nothing that is non-linear in approach from either side. We will be all ginned up with our various partisan cheerleaders by the fall, but in the end, it won't amount to much of a change. Its too early for me to speculate about 2014 or 2016, but you could very well be correct.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#5619 at 01-11-2012 12:41 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Yeah, I guess that's the problem with politicians that walk their talk. Unlike some others we all know and regret voting for in 2008.
Actually, Gingrich and Paul would be in the same camp with Kucinich (maybe Gravel) if they were Democrats. Republicans will circle the wagon and support a fellow Republican. If that wasn't true, neither of those guys could govern either.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#5620 at 01-11-2012 12:47 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Do you really regret voting for Obama in 2008? Given the alternative (for a progressive)?

He's been a disappointment, but still...
From my perspective, he's just good enough to allow the rot to continue slowly, so it's less obvious it's happening. Is that good? Is a slow death (the boiling frog choice) better than an in-your-face crash and burn that everyone can agree needs to be fixed? I'm starting to think that it's worse. I can't vote to make it happen. I may not vote to prevent it.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#5621 at 01-11-2012 01:23 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Yea, and high home prices drives the mortgage market.

Cheap credit always leads to bubbles.

James50
Always? Really? Credit has never been cheaper, where is the bubble?

And when bubbles come from cheap credit, what's causing the cheap credit? I know the pat answer is the FED, but why would they do that? I know the pat answer is "politics," but there is always "politics" - so why does cheap credit leading to bubbles happen sometimes and other times not?

Do you really think it all gets solved and goes away when cheap credit goes away - for example, do away with the FED and everyones' boo-boos stop hurting?

Those who answer "yes" to the latter question are the numbskulls that support Ron Paul. They're in for a rude awakening.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5622 at 01-11-2012 01:48 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Will Ron Paul go for a third party bid?



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1195647.html
No. He's got a son in the Senate so he doesn't want the GOP to hate him as a spoiler. He wants a major prime time speaking slot at the GOP convention and to influence the party platform.

The person I could see running third party is Huntsman. Anyone remember John Anderson running in 1980?
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#5623 at 01-11-2012 01:52 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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On another note concerning extremes for the youth. The other day my son came home from school all in huff. Apparently they are studying political parties in his history class and the kids were given a quiz to figure out where they fell on the political spectrum. My son was mad because he was the only one in his class that fell in the category of "extreme democrat". He said most of the kids fell into the category of extreme Republicans, with a few in the moderate areas up and down the spectrum.

I said to him. "I don't understand what you are so mad about. You have said yourself you are socialist and that's pretty extreme. You are much more extreme than I am." My husband's comment to him was, "Well, if you don't like be considered "extreme", then maybe you should stop having such extreme views."







Post#5624 at 01-11-2012 01:57 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
From my perspective, he's just good enough to allow the rot to continue slowly, so it's less obvious it's happening. Is that good? Is a slow death (the boiling frog choice) better than an in-your-face crash and burn that everyone can agree needs to be fixed? I'm starting to think that it's worse. I can't vote to make it happen. I may not vote to prevent it.
The pots not getting warmer; the end will not come with a boiling. The pot it's just staying too cold and slowly sapping the ability of all us frogs to do much of, well, what frogs do. The pot will warm up, hopefully, in time before we all go comatose again.

200K monthly employment increases will bring us to ambient temperature in about 7 years. However, some analysts are showing that the recent 200k includes a transitional increase of 45K in "couriers" (yes, WTH is that???) that the BLS seasonal adjustment is not picking-up. That makes the 200k to be really only 155K so add 2 more years for a total of 9 before we're back to room temperature. That's a timeframe that will also allow Boomers to pass out of the pot of "employment participation" and thereby the appearance of some better percentage job numbers to show.

Assuming automation will continue to make production easier, there's no need to fret the retiree-to-worker ratio or inflation. There is the risk that automation will eat away at the foundation of the heat (i.e. demand) enough to bring the pot's temperature down again (i.e. deflation); we'll just have to see. The more immediate concern is the GOP gets in and turns the only current source of heat (i.e. federal deficit spending) down too much to provide us sufficient heat - that's really the only real economic issue on the table for the 2012 election Obama gives us summer swimming in the Bay of Fundy (cold but tolerable), the GOP might throw us all into the Arctic Sea.

For all the screaming about us being the next too-hot-to-handle Greece or Ireland or Italy or whatever non-monetary sovereign flavor of the week the dimwits get excited about, weve actually turned Japanese. The rest of world will follow. Its Winter after all. ;-)
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#5625 at 01-11-2012 02:02 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
It would only work if he ran with a Dem.
Check this one out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py8cXlLyX18
Interesting video. And Kucinich has a valid point about the government needing two wings. Most of us know, that in varying degrees, as it stands now, we really only have one corporate wing in Washington. With very few exceptions, I might add.

This may be out of the box thinking from what we are used to and consider *normal.* But it may just be that he has a grain of truth in his message.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a
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