Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

He started with an Army, and now he has choir. If he had been doing the right things for the last 3 years, 2010 would have been avoided and we would have had real 3ecoomic and health reform. He had the numbers. Now, it's too late to make real hange. Anything that may occur in the next four years will be in the range of incrementally progressive to dramatically reactionary, with mildly reactionary being the most likely ... regardless of who gets chosen.

Maybe he could have done more of the right things, like not turning over his economic stimulus package to the congress. But the opposition would have arisen from the tea party types anyway, whether his stimulus had been smart or his health care reform had been corporate or public. The tea party are just folks who think they are entitled to control the government ever since Reagan. There are just too many of these reactionaries in this country, and too many people easily deceived into voting for their politicians just because the recovery was too slow. That was the fault of these voters for not being patient, refusing to consider just how deep a hole the Bush Republicans had dug us into. A financial crash based on lots of very-expensive mortgages was just too big to easily cure in a few months, even if Obama had done all the right things. But the people lost patience and voted Republican just because they were the only alternative. That was really stupid, and just made it tougher for Obama to do anything. The people are to blame; it could not be plainer.

I see no potential for real positive change. We seem to be adrift, muchlike the Japanese were for their two decades of depression, except we've decided not to do anything to make hings even marginally better. If we could take-on the infrastructure challenges, even inadequately, there might be some redemption. Instead, we're poised to eliminate capital gains taxation on the assumption that we need more capital in the private sector.

I can't disagree. Barring a virtual miracle, we are drifting toward becoming a banana republic, or toward civil war, or (hopefully) a peaceful break-up of the country. If the Democrats win back the congress in 2012, there could at least be a chance we could muddle through until a more liberal era dawns in the mid-2020s, thanks to more older folks dying off.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Or more likely, Type Five

Good site. I'll add it to my list of links on my enneagram site

It is a good site and just for fun, I took the short quiz. I scored the highest as a type 2 (The Helper) & 6 (The Loyalist) being tied with each other and came in third as type a type 7 (The Enthusiasts). I'd rather be "The Enthusiasts" as that sounds most interesting and does fit me to a degree, but I'm probably "The Helper" as that sounds a like my Myers Briggs personality type as well. But that's kind of boring since I've always end up as "The caregiver or The Helper" on these types of personality quizzes and it would be fun to be something else for a change.

As for my son, type five, could fit him too.

Originally Posted by The Rani

He sounds like a great dad.
And no, there's nothing wrong with being considered "extreme." It shows that you're thinking.

Maybe "extreme" has become a dirty word among his contemporaries. Judging from his reaction, it sure sounds like it. Remember, three turnings back, the worst thing you could say about someone was that they were not "normal."

Originally Posted by The Rani

It would only work if he ran with a Dem.
Check this one out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py8cXlLyX18

Perhaps the old millennial YouTube meme of a Paul/Nader ticket from 2008 needs to be brought out and dusted off. And I'm not joking, there were several Millennial-aged posters on YouTube & in real life supporting such a marriage, which is why when he appeared later that year to tell his supporters to support third party candidates along with Nader, I was shocked.

~Chas'88

Obviously the worth of combinations like these would depend on which is prez and which is veep!

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Maybe "extreme" has become a dirty word among his contemporaries. Judging from his reaction, it sure sounds like it. Remember, three turnings back, the worst thing you could say about someone was that they were not "normal."

Yes, and the second turning was so great because then it was "normal" that was the dirty word!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Yes, and the second turning was so great because then it was "normal" that was the dirty word!

It never ceases to amaze at how we as a culture are told to walk lockstep with everyone else or your not considered *normal.* I know this is a bit off subject, but then again maybe not. However, I see a new trend announced and the majority of Americans are tripping over one another to make sure they or their kids are wearing the correct clothes, talking on the latest technology, buying bigger and better *stuff.* So you would think that normal is almost the *safe* place to be. Like, whew, now I fit in.

This so called normal thinking, IMHO, has led to, in some cases, a bunch of sheep. And it shows up in our politics. For instance, "Oh heaven forbid, let's not support that candidate because he/she is not following the almighty idol called normal." The *normal* has gotten us in a heck of a position economically and foreign policy wise.

I'm ready for people who aren't afraid to not walk lockstep with popular opinion to get us off this death ship merry-go-round.

I'm just saying.

Originally Posted by Felix5

Am I the only person who thinks Ron Paul is a total nut job? Mitt Romney has proven to be more sane than this man and he believes in magic underwear.

I also think he's a nutjob.

His being against the Americans with Disabilities puts him in the ***hole category as well.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Maybe he could have done more of the right things, like not turning over his economic stimulus package to the congress. But the opposition would have arisen from the tea party types anyway, whether his stimulus had been smart or his health care reform had been corporate or public. The tea party are just folks who think they are entitled to control the government ever since Reagan. There are just too many of these reactionaries in this country, and too many people easily deceived into voting for their politicians just because the recovery was too slow. That was the fault of these voters for not being patient, refusing to consider just how deep a hole the Bush Republicans had dug us into. A financial crash based on lots of very-expensive mortgages was just too big to easily cure in a few months, even if Obama had done all the right things. But the people lost patience and voted Republican just because they were the only alternative. That was really stupid, and just made it tougher for Obama to do anything. The people are to blame; it could not be plainer.

Lesson #1: you can't win if you don't play. Obama let his Presidency just drift along, instead of standing up and speaking his mind. My God! He has the oratorical skills to own the bully pulpit like no other, yet he just equivocated. Where is the passion? The blame resides with the one who failed at his task. The Republicans played their roles to the hilt ... and they still are.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green ...

I can't disagree. Barring a virtual miracle, we are drifting toward becoming a banana republic, or toward civil war, or (hopefully) a peaceful break-up of the country. If the Democrats win back the congress in 2012, there could at least be a chance we could muddle through until a more liberal era dawns in the mid-2020s, thanks to more older folks dying off.

A muddle at this point gets us where David Kaiser has been predicting for months - essentially, nowhere. If there is to be any serious change, there must be an epic battle to win or lose. Since BHO is not the type to go looking for one, or fighting one if he can avoid it, I don't see that happening.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Or more likely, Type Five

Good site. I'll add it to my list of links on my enneagram site

This site has the most complete online test I have seen. Just in case you don't have it.

James50

Originally Posted by Felix5

Am I the only person who thinks Ron Paul is a total nut job? Mitt Romney has proven to be more sane than this man and he believes in magic underwear.

You think all politicians running for President are nut jobs. Why wouldn't you think Ron Paul was a nut job?

James50

Originally Posted by ASB65

It is a good site and just for fun, I took the short quiz. I scored the highest as a type 2 (The Helper) & 6 (The Loyalist) being tied with each other and came in third as type a type 7 (The Enthusiasts). I'd rather be "The Enthusiasts" as that sounds most interesting and does fit me to a degree, but I'm probably "The Helper" as that sounds a like my Myers Briggs personality type as well. But that's kind of boring since I've always end up as "The caregiver or The Helper" on these types of personality quizzes and it would be fun to be something else for a change.

As for my son, type five, could fit him too.

To the extent I could tell from your postings, I thought of you as a 2. My wife is also a 2.

There is a more complete test here. You might want to take it for yourself again to be more sure. I am not sure whether a child can take it or not, but you could see after you look at the test. He may also be a 1 (like me), but 1s, although they get most of their energy from anger, do not tend to let it show.

James50

I think Amy's a 2w1.

Originally Posted by James50

To the extent I could tell from your postings, I thought of you as a 2. My wife is also a 2.

There is a more complete test here. You might want to take it for yourself again to be more sure. I am not sure whether a child can take it or not, but you could see after you look at the test. He may also be a 1 (like me), but 1s, although they get most of their energy from anger, do not tend to let it show.

James50

8w7 here....

9 with balanced wings here

Originally Posted by Odin

I think Amy's a 2w1.

Well, you were close. I took the other test that James gave me and I got a 2w3.

This so called normal thinking, IMHO, has led to, in some cases, a bunch of sheep.

I think people just are this way, nothing is "leading" them to do it. Most people are followers by nature, that is their role in society. Societal roles appear to be that of leaders, followers, inventors, free thinkers, outcasts in order to function properly. Not necessarily in a caste way, but take out those laws and it still seems to function that way regardless of living in a "free country."

Why people still think they can change this is beyond my comprehension. If people weren't striving to obtain the latest piece of technology and mainstream clothing, they would all be striving for something else..together. It's what masses of people do. The awakening in the 60s counterculture ran on the idea of "rebelling against society" together. The unravelling was a collective movement of individualism. Further more if you're just rebelling because you wish to go against the followers, your actions are as slavish as the followers because your motivations and actions are ruled by the idea of going against whatever is placed in front of you.

Is it any better being an outcast? Are outcasts happier?

The only place you're truly free is internal and cannot be expressed.

I also think he's a nutjob.

His being against the Americans with Disabilities puts him in the ***hole category as well.

Sometimes I feel like he just says this stuff for attention or something, either way it's absolutely bonkers. He's definitely what people refer to as "the fringe," how such uniform people can be manipulated into believing he is sane and normal is beyond my comprehension.

Here I am:
Type 5 - 10
Type 8 - 9.3
Type 9 - 9
Type 7 - 8
Type 2 - 7.3
Type 4 - 7.3
Type 3 - 6.3

Wing 8w9 - 13.8
Wing 9w8 - 13.7
Wing 5w4 - 13.7
Wing 8w7 - 13.3
Wing 7w8 - 12.7
Wing 4w5 - 12.3
Wing 5w6 - 11
Wing 4w3 - 10.5
Wing 2w3 - 10.5
Wing 3w4 - 10
Wing 3w2 - 10
Wing 9w1 - 9.5
Wing 7w6 - 9
Wing 2w1 - 7.8

Inconclusive. The test site suggested the first three wing options as possible fits. I don't find much value in this test - at least for me.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I think it's the reverse; the high tuition drives student loans.

Latest higher education bubble update:

The annual price tag for a college credential has risen about three times as fast as inflation, and there is no sign that it’s slowing down. In the last decade alone, tuition rates at public colleges and universities, which enroll about 80 percent of American students, rose by an average of 5.6 percentage points above inflation every year.

Despite those vast price increases, students continued to line up for admission to one of the nation’s colleges. To pay the bills, students and their families borrowed—a lot.

Some $110-billion in student loans was borrowed last year. That’s more than half the amount that was borrowed between the passage of the first Higher Education Act, in 1965, and the end of President Bill Clinton’s second term.
....
So going to college is worth it, but going to any college at any price may no longer be worth it. About half of Americans think that the higher-education system is doing a poor or fair job in providing value for the money spent, according to a survey last spring by the Pew Research Center.

College presidents seem tone-deaf to those concerns. In a companion survey conducted with The Chronicle, three-fourths of college leaders said the system was providing a good or excellent value.

Read the whole thing.

Without cheap credit, this bubble would have ended long ago. When it goes, which it will, there will be carnage everywhere; and people slapping their heads saying "how could I have been such a fool!" It will be just like housing.

James50

Originally Posted by Felix5

Is it any better being an outcast? Are outcasts happier?

The only place you're truly free is internal and cannot be expressed.

We as a humans can evolve. We are not stuck in some warped zone with which we can never escape. It is proven in other industrial nations that we can get beyond this trap of a mindset that we are what we are.

Following ones heart and soul for the betterment of our fellow humans is a much needed task. But first, it would strengthen us all to ask if main stream thinking is making our world any safer.

Perhaps one day, we will awaken to the fact that working together for the common good will make us all much safer and more content. Television pours into our primitive minds that striving to fit in should be our goal. Well I'm here to suggest that if we let main stream thinking guide our actions, then the children of the future will be left with a depleted planet and on going wars.

There is another way. We have a choice; work together for the good of all or continue on the path of destruction.

We are not powerless. And it is an amazing peace that settles over a person who knows that, in spite of their so called human nature, they have not been silent in the midst of oppression.

Interesting discussion I ran into:

What I think we are seeing today is the fracturing of the Reagan Coalition

An election every bit as important as

1912, 1932, 1968 and 1980.

Reagan famously said he never met a man he didn't like who had an R after his name. Now we have

Mitt (Wealth, Pedigree)
Paul (Libertarian)
Santorum (Hawk,Catholic)
Newt (Hammer.machine man)
Perry (Southern RW Evangelical)
Huntsman (Conservative)

Reagan, and GWB for that matter kept these strands together, but Mitt is such a problematic candidate, the whole caboodle is coming apart at the seams.

Obama, by nature is not a divide and rule politician. As he says with some conviction, 'out of many, one'. But a politician he is, a politician who learnt more than a little in Chicago. One of the first moves he made in the 2007/8 campaign was to neuter Bill Clinton thus hobbling the Clinton game plan. Tagging WJC with racism was as dirty as it was effective. Not to mention audacious. I doubt Bill ever saw the result in SC coming.

Transformative presidencies tear the opposition into pieces. I would be surprised if Obama passed up this opportunity. He has seen enough of what a monolithic voting block looks like. As for the GOP, it's out of one, many.

And I posted that the elites have been trying to ride the Fundy Nutjob tiger, but now that tiger is trying to buck them and turn them into lunch.

Originally Posted by James50

Without cheap credit, this bubble would have ended long ago. When it goes, which it will, there will be carnage everywhere; and people slapping their heads saying "how could I have been such a fool!" It will be just like housing.

James50

James, you really can't treat education like any other bubble. That's like saying there's a health-care bubble because people are seeing the doctor too much. Or there's a food bubble because people are insisting on eating.

Here's the problem as I see it:

1) We lost the good, unionized manufacturing jobs that used to allow the non-college educated to achieve a middle-class income.
2) The service jobs that have mostly replaced those lost jobs are not unionized, don't pay as well, and don't allow a middle-class lifestyle.
3) The remaining jobs that do, all require a college degree (or more).
4) People have bought into the false logic that says you need a college degree now in order to achieve a middle class income, instead of recognizing the truth, which is that the American Dream is dead, and so for most people a middle class income has simply become impossible -- having more college-educated people won't magically create well-paying jobs for them to fill. (This is an example of what I call the "competitive fallacy," which I might go into in more detail another time.)
5) This has resulted in increased demand for college education which has driven up the price.
6) The government has elected to provide financial aid mostly in the form of loans rather than grants.

Now, you can say that without the loans there would have been less effective demand and hence lower tuition, but what that amounts to saying is that most people are just SOL. Which is, in fact, true -- but let's put everything in proper perspective, please. You can't JUST reduce availability of student loan credit. There also has to be some effort made to correct the engineered loss of good jobs for non-college-grads.

Bill Moyers:

On Democracy: Is This Land Made for You and Me?

Woody Guthrie's song lyrics are as crucial now as they were when he wrote them.

In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people,
By the relief office I seen my people;
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking
Is this land made for you and me?

Woody Guthrie saw the ravages of the Dust Bowl and the Depression firsthand; his own family came unraveled in the worst hard times. And he wrote tough yet lyrical stories about the men and women who struggled to survive, enduring the indignity of living life at the bone, with nothing to eat and no place to sleep. He traveled from town to town, hitchhiking and stealing rides in railroad boxcars, singing his songs for spare change or a ham sandwich. What professional success he had during his own lifetime, singing in concerts and on the radio, was often undone by politics and the restless urge to keep moving on. “So long, it’s been good to know you,” he sang, and off he would go.

What he wrote and sang about caused the oil potentates and preachers who ran Oklahoma to consider him radical and disreputable. For many years he was the state’s prodigal son, but times change, and that’s the big news. Woody Guthrie has been rediscovered, even though Oklahoma’s more conservative than ever – one of the reddest of our red states with a governor who’s a favorite of the Tea Party.

The George Kaiser Family Foundation has bought Guthrie’s archives – his manuscripts, letters and journals. A center is being built in Tulsa that will make them available to scholars and visitors from all over the world.

snip

But maybe – just maybe – the news that Woody Guthrie, once a pariah in his home state, has become a local hero is the harbinger of things to come, and that all the people who still believe this land is our land will begin to take it back.

More: http://www.truth-out.org/democracy-l...-me/1326393310

Originally Posted by Brian Rush

James, you really can't treat education like any other bubble. That's like saying there's a health-care bubble because people are seeing the doctor too much. Or there's a food bubble because people are insisting on eating.

Here's the problem as I see it:

1) We lost the good, unionized manufacturing jobs that used to allow the non-college educated to achieve a middle-class income.
2) The service jobs that have mostly replaced those lost jobs are not unionized, don't pay as well, and don't allow a middle-class lifestyle.
3) The remaining jobs that do, all require a college degree (or more).
4) People have bought into the false logic that says you need a college degree now in order to achieve a middle class income, instead of recognizing the truth, which is that the American Dream is dead, and so for most people a middle class income has simply become impossible -- having more college-educated people won't magically create well-paying jobs for them to fill. (This is an example of what I call the "competitive fallacy," which I might go into in more detail another time.)
5) This has resulted in increased demand for college education which has driven up the price.
6) The government has elected to provide financial aid mostly in the form of loans rather than grants.

Now, you can say that without the loans there would have been less effective demand and hence lower tuition, but what that amounts to saying is that most people are just SOL. Which is, in fact, true -- but let's put everything in proper perspective, please. You can't JUST reduce availability of student loan credit. There also has to be some effort made to correct the engineered loss of good jobs for non-college-grads.

It seems to me you are analyzing the demand side without looking at the supply side. The higher education community is pricing itself into disaster. It really is not that different from healthcare. If you devote more and more of society's resources to health care and education (the two parts of the economy that have exceeded economic growth for a generation), eventually you are going to run out of resources for these two. Continuing to prop them up with government support will only make the bubble pop that much worse. What needs to happen is for someone to propose a $10K undergraduate degree (and reduce societal expenditures on health care to the EU's percent of GDP - about half of where it is now). The supply side is important too. It's near impossible to justify a $200K degree except from maybe the top 10 schools.

Things that can't go on, won't.

James50