I'm not so certain the Republican evangelicals will sit it out. They really want Obama out of office. I heard someone say the other day, "There is an old saying...Democrats fall in love. Republicans fall in line." I think there may be some truth to that.Originally Posted by pizal81
The Right's amnesia about Osama bin Laden is astonishing.
My experience is that the rest of the world doesn't think too often about America. We see ourselves at the center of the world, but every country has the same perspective. In Estonia, they think the world turns around the Baltic Sea. It's amusing to hear candidates from both parties appeal to American exceptionalism. I also don't grasp the critiques of the European welfare state. The issue in Europe is not welfare, it's bad management and corruption. The entire northern half of the continent is comprised of so-called welfare states, but it is the southern half where bad management and endemic corruption have led to financial disasters. Iceland was much the same. There you had a little pirate nation led by a handful of local oligarchs that went up in smoke, again, because of bad management and corruption, not because of the strains placed on the economy by its universal healthcare system....GOP reality is easily reduced to the sound-bite accepted as absolute and complete truth, with anything that contradicts it being shown as evil, un-Christian, or treasonous (if not politically, then "culturally"). Newt Gingrich has no difficulty in connecting to people ignorant enough to believe that Tchaikovsky and Dostoevsky were good buddies of Lenin ... or that America (or at least the part that distrusts anything 'exotic') is special because it is America. (You know and I know that the rest of the world has been catching up to us in living standards and surpassing us in the efficacy of government services, but if you believe that you are probably enough of a 'cultural traitor' to have a bonsai tree in your house).
Why is America so terrified of social guarantees? Wouldn't that take a big load off the backs of small businesses? Wouldn't that actually decrease the costs of health care through preventative care, less emergency room visits, et cetera? But instead you hear about either the evils of socialist Obamacare or how wise and prudent and moderate our president has been by abandoning the public option and renewing the Bush tax cuts. Whenever I open my mouth though, I find myself feeling like Che Guevara at a Country Club dinner.
Last edited by Uzi; 01-22-2012 at 01:46 PM.
I don't know why, Uzi. I wish I did.
Except for extending some Medicare coverage there was no enhancement of the welfare system (unless you mean corporate welfare) in America in the years 2001-2008. But we did have a huge expansion in corporate corruption, especially in the financial industry. Such led to reckless behavior that the US Government enabled.
People should be in prison for the fraudulent ratings of "securities" based upon questionable mortgages. Having seen an article in Business Week that delineated the great fraud in 2005 I could have predicted a nasty market crash but not quite when and how severe. A 4T is one of the times in which corrupt tendencies and bad business practices are in greatest peril.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Just out of curiosity, how do you view PBS News Hour ... it didn't make your list above.
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."
I think paid political advertising is vastly overrated. After the SC primary, Gingrich is saturating the air waves without paying a dime thanks to the MSM.
James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton
A single payer health care system that provided basic care to everyone would absolutely take a load off of the back of small business. The part of the European system I would not want to emulate is their system of unlimited unemployment benefits.
James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton
The 30-minute newscasts on the three main commercial networks are worthless. One of the better figures of those newscasts, Walter Cronkhite, recognized the limitations of those half-hour newscasts even in the absence of bias. He told people to read newspapers. Coverage of big events as a rule is superficial. Remember: those newscasts are 20 minutes of news at the most -- and less with plugs for other programs (even if those are news programs), let alone if the material is a political screed (Ronald Reagan is going to starve poor people!) or coverage of popular culture.
In any event, a researcher studied how well informed people were about events based on answers to the following questions related to the Second Gulf War. All three statements were certifiably false:
1. Saddam Hussein had an active program for developing, buying, or stealing proscribed weapons of mass destruction.
2. Saddam Hussein had involvement in the 9/11 attacks.
3. The rest of the world concurred with the United States on the appropriateness of overthrowing Saddam Hussein.
The people who relied upon multiple news sources (including news magazines), newspapers, foreign media, MSNBC, NPR, PBS' News Hour, and of all things the Daily Show on Comedy Central fared best. CNN was not quite as good as these, but still better than average. (CNN basically follows the Administration in charge).
The fourth, third, and second worst for informing people were the nightly newscasts on ABC, CBS, and NBC (no particular order assumed here). The worst-informed were those who relied upon propaganda from FoX "News" Channel. If those who watched the nightly network newscasts were under-informed, those who relied upon FoX "News" were terribly disinformed/ FoX "News" viewers get huge amounts of what looks like news but got it wrong -- much like people who relied upon Soviet media for accurate news about the Cold War were badly misinformed.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
I have been hearing the knocks on northern European "socialism" since I was a kid. Yet when they do polling to ask people how happy they are in their lives, Scandanavia is always well represented at the top of the list.
Ron Paul’s “South Was Right” Civil War Speech With Confederate Flag.
F*CK Ron Paul. Libertarian my ass, he's a Neo-Confederate and a racist.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Why did the parties go crazy over the last 40 years or so? Lots of reasons--Boomers being one of them. But I also think bad luck had a lot to do with it.
1. JFK, the most popular Democratic politician since FDR, who might have prevented the rupture of the party over Vietnam, was assassinated. The party never fully recovered, except perhaps in 2008, its first solid victory.
2. Richard Nixon, a centrist Republican, was driven out of office because he also happened to be sufficiently paranoid to disregard the Constitution, and he dragged his moderate successor Gerald Ford down with him via the pardon. Centrist Republicanism has had only 4 years in power since and they didn't go well.
Luck plays a big role in history.
James, I recommend you check Saturday Washington Post for an article on how South Carolinians of all political stripes (really) are getting the news. You'd be amazed at how few Republican primary voters are watching the MSM, but they are hearing plenty about Newt on Fox. In fact I'm very curious as to how Fox is playing the situation now. Coulter remains hysterical. She's a centrist at heart, it seems--a centrist who enjoys totally over-the-top rhetoric. Call her Fraulein Frankenstein, she's as much to blame for Newt as anyone. . .
James, you said the other day you thought any chance of your voting for Obama again was gone. But suppose it was against Newt?
David Kaiser '47
My blog: History Unfolding
My book: The Road to Dallas: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy
It's really quite simple: there is nothing libertarian about slavery.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Sure there is--if you're a slaveholder!
David Kaiser '47
My blog: History Unfolding
My book: The Road to Dallas: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy
There are some echoes of 1964 here:
- Youth involvement. Goldwater got smoked in the general election, but he did have a strong following with early Boomers. Famously, one campaign volunteer was none other than Hillary Clinton.
- Like Goldwater, Paul isn't going to win. Goldwater shouldn't have won the nomination and wouldn't have if not for a scandal that befell Nelson Rockefeller.
- Goldwater set the table for future conservatives like Ronald Reagan. Ron Paul knows he isn't getting nominated, but he isn't running for himself. He is laying the idealogical groundwork for his son to run in the future.
- The GOP was divided between moderate Rockefeller Republicans and conservatives for Goldwater. In 1960, Nixon was able to unify the two branches. When he didn't run in 1964, it left a great divide, not unlike supporters of Romney and Gingrich. If Mitt is hobbled by the release of his tax returns Tuesday, you could have another unelectable GOP nominee in Gingrich. Just as moderates voted for LBJ in 1964, Obama could end up attracting the same type of Republican.
On the last point, I realize Gingrich is not a genuine conservative like Goldwater, but he appears ready to pretend like he is.
EDIT: One last oddity with 1964. George Romney was nominated on the floor of the convention by Gerald Ford. He ended up getting the support of 41 delegates.
Last edited by TeddyR; 01-22-2012 at 10:12 PM.
I have news for you j.p.; the Left thinks ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, and most other media outlets (such as "The New York Liberal Times") are right-wing outlets.
If you're 95% wrong, as you admitted
then you are getting your news from the wrong place.
Let's hope that doesn't happen.
James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton
Wow! If you're so far out there to think MSNBC is a "right-wing outlet" I don't know what to say to you but to accept you're an extremist!
j.p.
"And did you get what you wanted from this life, even so? I did. And what did you want? To call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth." -- Raymond Carver
"A page of good prose remains invincible." -- John Cheever
MSNBC is the propaganda wing of the corporate Dem Establishment. Cenk Uyger said after he was booted from the network that criticism of Obama from the left is not tolerated.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Maybe me, and most other people on the Left who hold that opinion. All the media you mentioned that you call Left, are after all corporate entities who favor business-friendly policies.
Myself, actually, I think most media, except Fox News, are mostly pretty honest and accurate. But they tend to suppress or ignore a lot of what's going on that might upset the applecart of corporate profits.
That doesn't include commentary and talk shows, of course. They have a range of opinions.
The point really is, if you think all these news media are from the Left, you and your friends on the right are the "extremists".
And saying liberals are 95% wrong is extremist too.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 01-23-2012 at 03:35 AM.
We have corporate media, and the confusion is only compounded by mixing the Democratic party up with "the left."
Or, you can continue your axiomatic rants if you assume people like Chris Dodd don't represent the left in America:
GE shows us the macrocosm. One media entity has no problem pandering to the left (MSNBC) middle (NBC) and right (CNBC) - so long as they can define the terms and set the limits of debate (as Odin mentioned, left-wing corporate media cannot criticize Obama)."Those who count on quote 'Hollywood' for support need to understand that this industry is watching very carefully who's going to stand up for them when their job is at stake," said Dodd. "Don't ask me to write a check for you when you think your job is at risk and then don't pay any attention to me when my job is at stake."
Within that very limited "mainstream" framework, an individual viewer is encouraged to exist anywhere in the pre-approved spectrum, because any position in that spectrum will support the publishers' corporate interests.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
I and every Democrat I know is hoping that it does.
David Kaiser '47
My blog: History Unfolding
My book: The Road to Dallas: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy
Wasn't Keith Olbermann on MSNBC before he got booted for reporting the truth about our corrupt political system?
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a
Originally Posted by KaiserD2
James, you said the other day you thought any chance of your voting for Obama again was gone. But suppose it was against Newt?In not-so-risky times we can get away with voting on ideological tests. In more dangerous times, ideology matters far less than who demonstrates integrity, caution, rationality, wisdom, fairness, and -- in view of what is at stake -- respect for core institutions.
I see what the GOP has offered to replace the President who most offends right-wing sensibilities. Herman Cain offered his "9-9-9" mantra, and it showed that it could only intensify the pathologies of the 4T. Michele Bachmann offered a new McCarthyism likely at best to pit Left and Right. Rick Perry could never explain what he stood for other than "Barack Obama must be defeated".
So it is down to four. Ron Paul is all over the chart, trying to attract youth who want drug laws undone and a major reduction in spending on everything -- including military efforts. A simple retort is that Iran, North Korea, and drugs are still dangerous. Rick Santorum has a solution in "family", "faith", and "work" -- that basically if his grandfather could work for scrip as a coal miner in a company town, then Americans should be satisfied to work far harder for much less on behalf of "economic growth" unlikely to do them or their progeny any good. Poverty tears at family life and destroys the psychological certainty that children need if they are to become competent adults. Mitt Romney has given up any pretension that the American economic order must serve any but the profiteers. Such was tried in Russia about a century ago, and a fellow named Lenin had his idea of how to do things better. Newt Gingrich has ideas but can't sort them out.
We need to remember that a 4T is in part a simplification of politics with a tendency toward a shared purpose. But before there is any simplification people must choose the appropriate direction. Wrong solutions -- like world conquest and remaking a country along ethnic or religious lines -- fail catastrophically. It's hard to imagine a country in which people were so proud of their nationality than Germans in 1936 -- and no country in which people were so ashamed of their nationality than Germans in 1946.
A plutocratic America may have its downfall in an anti-bourgeois Socialist revolution. Just imagine what happens if urban populations who believe that they have nothing to lose discover the left-wing tracts of the 2T Weather Underground and Black Panthers and interpret those as only a Thirteenth-Millennial coalition can (that is, without the flamboyant narcissism of Boomer extremists). If such people can shut down the transportation and communication centers then they can take command of the hinterland, as the Bolsheviks did in Russia. A radical clique in charge in Chicago has effective control of broadcasting and the supply of such fundamental objects as wheat and steel over a large area. Without wheat one has no bread, and without steel one has no rifles.
A militaristic America can attempt to create its own "Greater America Co-Prosperity Sphere" that ends much like the "Greater East Asia" version did. Need I say more?
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
This is a short sighted horse race comment, and a big mistake. You cannot know the future and putting someone like Newt at the top of the ticket raises terrifying possibilities. You should wish for the best possible GOP candidate.
On a lighter note, the WSJ editorial page today called Gingrich a "Hindenburg sure to explode".I like that metaphor.
James50
Last edited by James50; 01-23-2012 at 12:08 PM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton
Roflmao!! James - you add a great deal to this forum!On a lighter note, the WSJ editorial page today called Gingrich a "Hindenburg sure to explode".
James50
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."
