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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 271







Post#6751 at 02-06-2012 10:19 PM by pizal81 [at China joined May 2010 #posts 2,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
And I respect your views. No one should tell others what to believe.
Nobody can live what you just said consistently. If you don't believe a person who says there is a cliff in front of you that you are driving toward you might die. Now others can't make someone believe something they don't, but it doesn't mean that it is not in someone's best interest to believe whatever the heck they want.
I'm have the same DNA as I did when I was conceived that in the very least makes prenatal a gray area as far as human life is concerned and we should err on the side of preserving life. It's funny the left claims to champion the rights of the weak while stomping all over the rights of the weakest of all, the unborn. Notice none of my arguments were religious in nature BTW. If you think killing babies is ok I get make you believe it isn't, but that doesn't mean we are both right.







Post#6752 at 02-06-2012 11:03 PM by millennialX [at Gotham City, USA joined Oct 2010 #posts 6,597]
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Quote Originally Posted by pizal81 View Post
Nobody can live what you just said consistently. If you don't believe a person who says there is a cliff in front of you that you are driving toward you might die. Now others can't make someone believe something they don't, but it doesn't mean that it is not in someone's best interest to believe whatever the heck they want.
I'm have the same DNA as I did when I was conceived that in the very least makes prenatal a gray area as far as human life is concerned and we should err on the side of preserving life. It's funny the left claims to champion the rights of the weak while stomping all over the rights of the weakest of all, the unborn. Notice none of my arguments were religious in nature BTW. If you think killing babies is ok I get make you believe it isn't, but that doesn't mean we are both right.
I actually don't think she is a fan of the idea, here. She's a fan of choice, more like it.
Born in 1981 and INFJ Gen Yer







Post#6753 at 02-07-2012 12:08 AM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
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Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
No one is forcing anyone, Catholic or otherwise, to get an abortion or to use contraception. This argument about "forcing people to pay for it" just does not wash in an age where people's tax dollars and private donations don't always go where you'd like them to go. Just imagine how many gifts to the Catholic Church may have gone to defend outrageous behavior by priests and bishops over the years.

And once again, you seem to forget that I am a Christian and that there are many others like me who are on the Left and care about the rights and dignity of women.
Would you have a moral issue if the government wrote a law that forced your church to go or operate against its beliefs? Oh, you'd have an issue and I would have an issue too.







Post#6754 at 02-07-2012 12:35 AM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
SITF is on my ignore list, but I looked at that post, and I'm glad I did--because of the data.

It's incredible.

What we see here is that the advanced Latin, Catholic countries are dealing with the issue of teen sex responsibly and sanely, while the Anglo-Saxons. . .it's pathetic. Truly pathetic.

I think I was really lucky to grow up when I did. When I was 14 premarital sex was taboo and dangerous, there was essentially no birth control available, and abortion was illegal. By the time I was 21 and started having sex (yes, I know, rather late), contraception was freely available and we accepted that you could learn about sex first, then get married, then, when you wanted to, have kids. And that's exactly what I did. It seems so fucking obvious, if you'll pardon the expression, that that's the sensible way to do it, that I really despair of the insanity of the substantial minority of my countrymen and women who want to pretend that they can stop teens from having sex, which of course, they can't. Other advanced countries, obviously, have figured it out.Why can't we?
Sex isn't the issue. The idea of having sex at a younger age isn't the issue. The issue is responsibility and the lack of responsibility. Who pays for the idiots who engage in irresponsible sex? We pay for the idiots. I didn't knock chicks up because I didn't want to pay for it one way or another for the rest of my life.







Post#6755 at 02-07-2012 12:40 AM by summer in the fall [at joined Jul 2011 #posts 1,540]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
SITF is on my ignore list, but I looked at that post, and I'm glad I did--because of the data.

It's incredible.
It is, isn't?

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
What we see here is that the advanced Latin, Catholic countries are dealing with the issue of teen sex responsibly and sanely, while the Anglo-Saxons. . .it's pathetic. Truly pathetic.

I think I was really lucky to grow up when I did. When I was 14 premarital sex was taboo and dangerous, there was essentially no birth control available, and abortion was illegal. By the time I was 21 and started having sex (yes, I know, rather late), contraception was freely available and we accepted that you could learn about sex first, then get married, then, when you wanted to, have kids. And that's exactly what I did. It seems so fucking obvious, if you'll pardon the expression, that that's the sensible way to do it, that I really despair of the insanity of the substantial minority of my countrymen and women who want to pretend that they can stop teens from having sex, which of course, they can't. Other advanced countries, obviously, have figured it out.Why can't we?
Fear…fear of becoming too Catholic, too socialist, too European, too prone to give up rights to government. They are all fallacious slippery slope arguments designed to to keep people in state of controllable fear and learned helplessness. People will get over it...

P.S. Your secret of reading my posts is safe with me ::wink::

Best...
Last edited by summer in the fall; 02-07-2012 at 02:00 AM. Reason: syntax







Post#6756 at 02-07-2012 12:50 AM by summer in the fall [at joined Jul 2011 #posts 1,540]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Actuallyu, it is productive. countries with smaller gaps between rich and poor are, in general, happier that countries with large wealth gaps. Large wealth gaps in developed countries are also correlated to religiousness, egalitarian countries tend to be less religious.
...Which explains the differing reactions to abortion/contraception in France as opposed to US.

Cheers.







Post#6757 at 02-07-2012 01:31 AM by annla899 [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,860]
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Here is an interesting response from a reader of Andrew Sullivan's blog at the Daily Beast about requiring Catholic hospitals, etc., to provide insurance coverage for contraceptives.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast....-do-ctd-1.html

An excerpt:

Critics frame the issue as forcing the church to violate its theological stance on contraception. I have never seen this theological claim carefully defended. Yes, Catholics believe that individuals commit sin when those individuals use contraception. However, it has never been the theological position of the church that individuals and organizations have a moral requirement to coerce others to not use contraception. A good Catholic business owner who buys insurance for his workers is not expected to confess as a sin the fact that this insurance covers contraception. He is expected to confess if he or she uses contraception.







Post#6758 at 02-07-2012 09:25 AM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
So we should be MORE like the Catholics??!!
More like the lapsed Catholics, evidently.







Post#6759 at 02-07-2012 09:28 AM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
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Quote Originally Posted by annla899 View Post
Here is an interesting response from a reader of Andrew Sullivan's blog at the Daily Beast about requiring Catholic hospitals, etc., to provide insurance coverage for contraceptives.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast....-do-ctd-1.html

An excerpt:
I think that's the first time Andrew Sullivan and I have ever agreed on anything.







Post#6760 at 02-07-2012 09:34 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by pizal81 View Post
It's funny the left claims to champion the rights of the weak while stomping all over the rights of the weakest of all, the unborn. Notice none of my arguments were religious in nature BTW. If you think killing babies is ok I get make you believe it isn't, but that doesn't mean we are both right.
If the Catholic hierarchy wasn't so determined to discourage contraception, there would be fewer abortions in the first place. It isn't healthy to force women to have more children than they can handle either physically or economically. I just don't think the hierarchy has the best interests of women in mind.







Post#6761 at 02-07-2012 09:40 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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Quote Originally Posted by annla899 View Post
Here is an interesting response from a reader of Andrew Sullivan's blog at the Daily Beast about requiring Catholic hospitals, etc., to provide insurance coverage for contraceptives.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast....-do-ctd-1.html

An excerpt:
Thoughtful and nuanced comments. Much appreciated.







Post#6762 at 02-07-2012 09:52 AM by summer in the fall [at joined Jul 2011 #posts 1,540]
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Lightbulb In Honor of Black History Month...

Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
Quote Originally Posted by summer in the fall View Post
Then I stand corrected. This is not about the Church of Misogyny. It's about undermining President Obama...yet again.

Cheers.
And there is that, too.
CNN did a whole (albeit exaggerated) segment on it.

But my Child of Socrates, you really should have added the latter part of this quote...

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you NOT to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. -- Marianne Williamson


Cheers.
Last edited by summer in the fall; 02-07-2012 at 10:08 AM. Reason: wrong network







Post#6763 at 02-07-2012 09:53 AM by summer in the fall [at joined Jul 2011 #posts 1,540]
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Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
Quote Originally Posted by annla899 View Post
Here is an interesting response from a reader of Andrew Sullivan's blog at the Daily Beast about requiring Catholic hospitals, etc., to provide insurance coverage for contraceptives.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast....-do-ctd-1.html

An excerpt:
Thoughtful and nuanced comments. Much appreciated.
Ditto.

Cheers.







Post#6764 at 02-07-2012 09:58 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
So we should be MORE like the Catholics??!!
And less like Protestants? Apparently so...
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc ętre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŕ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce ętre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#6765 at 02-07-2012 11:23 AM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
I imagine Obama might have to back off of his contraceptive rules for Catholic hospitals. I don't agree, but politics might have to rule. Catholics are important to the Democrats, and so are Jews. We'll see how it plays out though.
Right now, Romney's Facebook missives (which my wife subscribes to) are framing this as a religious liberty issue.

I consider it as much a matter of religious liberty as the Catholic pharmacists who sued their employer a few years ago, claiming the right not to be required to dispense birth control. My answer to that is to find another line of work. When I was working as a cashier at Roy Rogers a couple of decades ago, there is no way I could have refused to ring up coffee and kept my job.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didn´t replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#6766 at 02-07-2012 11:23 AM by pizal81 [at China joined May 2010 #posts 2,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by Child of Socrates View Post
If the Catholic hierarchy wasn't so determined to discourage contraception, there would be fewer abortions in the first place. It isn't healthy to force women to have more children than they can handle either physically or economically. I just don't think the hierarchy has the best interests of women in mind.
Yeah, I disagree with the Catholics as far as contraception goes. I don't really understand the logic. I know they believe some falsehoods about sex being inherently evil thus celibate priests are somehow less sinful. The contraception fallacy must steam from that.







Post#6767 at 02-07-2012 11:23 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
This is not my belief. It is the belief of the Catholic church.

Obama's dictum is not about freeing or restricting anyone's reproductive freedom. It is about forcing people of deep belief to fund something contrary to their moral conscience. This is a huge and important distinction.

James50
You keep conflating rights, granted solely to people, with beliefs, also held solely by people, with the implied rights and beliefs of the Catholic Church, which is an institution not a person. Institutions have no Consitutional rights. That a church chooses to own non-religous properties is a decision outside the domain of the Billof Rights. Keep your associations in mind when you link A to B.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#6768 at 02-07-2012 11:30 AM by pizal81 [at China joined May 2010 #posts 2,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Actuallyu, it is productive. countries with smaller gaps between rich and poor are, in general, happier that countries with large wealth gaps. Large wealth gaps in developed countries are also correlated to religiousness, egalitarian countries tend to be less religious.
The country with one of the largest rich poor gaps in the world is also one of the most atheistic. You did keep the modifier speaking only of developed countries though. So I don't think what you actually said was a falsehood, but may lead to a false conclusion if misunderstood. Also I don't know how you harmonize that with America's rich/poor gap growing as we lose our religion.
I usually don't like to lump religious all together anyway because religion is diverse in and of itself. I don't know who does it, but the perspectives seems to be from an atheist point of view to lump them all together.
I will say this though. The human tendency to take what they believe and use it as an excuse to hate and even attack others is universal in all religions. I don't think that human tendency disappears when religion is absent though.
Last edited by pizal81; 02-07-2012 at 11:33 AM.







Post#6769 at 02-07-2012 11:56 AM by summer in the fall [at joined Jul 2011 #posts 1,540]
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Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
More like the lapsed Catholics, evidently.
Or more like the South Koreans (which is a Christian, predominately Protestant, nation) and has the lowest teen pregnancy rate of the OECD nations. Or more like the Germans (whose plurality leans Protestant) and they have the lowest teen abortion rate of the OECD nations. So you had it right, it's the Anglo-Saxons that raise the red flag. But seeing as the Anglo-Saxons beat the Latins in women's suffrage, this appears to be a progressive dancing game of sorts that Anglo-Saxons are on the rebound from.

Cheers.
Last edited by summer in the fall; 02-07-2012 at 12:26 PM.







Post#6770 at 02-07-2012 12:37 PM by radind [at Alabama joined Sep 2009 #posts 1,595]
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Quote Originally Posted by pizal81 View Post
Yeah, I disagree with the Catholics as far as contraception goes. I don't really understand the logic. I know they believe some falsehoods about sex being inherently evil thus celibate priests are somehow less sinful. The contraception fallacy must steam from that.
I think that the position of the Catholic Church on birth control has always been clear( see below for example). While I do not agree with this, but I do oppose the killing of unborn babies.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/birth-control
In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.







Post#6771 at 02-07-2012 12:56 PM by radind [at Alabama joined Sep 2009 #posts 1,595]
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Quote Originally Posted by summer in the fall View Post
Or more like the South Koreans (which is a Christian, predominately Protestant, nation) and has the lowest teen pregnancy rate of the OECD nations. Or more like the Germans (whose plurality leans Protestant) and they have the lowest teen abortion rate of the OECD nations. So you had it right, it's the Anglo-Saxons that raise the red flag. But seeing as the Anglo-Saxons beat the Latins in women's suffrage, this appears to be a progressive dancing game of sorts that Anglo-Saxons are on the rebound from.

Cheers.
You may like these statistics even better:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/re...gion-religions
South Korea: Christian 26.3% (Protestant 19.7%, Roman Catholic 6.6%), Buddhist 23.2%, other or unknown 1.3%, none 49.3%







Post#6772 at 02-07-2012 01:14 PM by summer in the fall [at joined Jul 2011 #posts 1,540]
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Quote Originally Posted by radind View Post
You may like these statistics even better:
Those were the statistics I used. Of the religions in South Korea, Christianity is the dominant one. And if you know anything about South Koreans, they are extremely evangelical. So it is a rising number (as opposed to the declining number in Western countries who are non-religious or affiliated only in name).

Best...
Last edited by summer in the fall; 02-07-2012 at 01:19 PM.







Post#6773 at 02-07-2012 01:40 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by pizal81 View Post
Yeah, I disagree with the Catholics as far as contraception goes. I don't really understand the logic. I know they believe some falsehoods about sex being inherently evil thus celibate priests are somehow less sinful. The contraception fallacy must steam from that.
Contraception is against "God's plan."

But in regard to that other affront to "God's Plan," my priest is going to have to pry my Viagra from my cold flacid hand!

But he knows better than to mess with me; I gotta 6-pack!

"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#6774 at 02-07-2012 01:42 PM by radind [at Alabama joined Sep 2009 #posts 1,595]
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except for the religion of None







Post#6775 at 02-07-2012 01:45 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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GOP getting real nervous

President Obama’s approval numbers are creeping toward positive territory. Polls from Rasmussen and WaPo/ABC had him at 2 and 4 points net approval this morning.

And the President’s numbers against Romney seem to be tracking up too.

...

The current TPM Poll Average shows Obama 6.2 percentage points ahead of Romney.

..

These numbers come as Romney’s favorability numbers are moving down rapidly. And this morning’s WaPo/ABC poll shows that by a 2 to 1 margin, the more people find out about Romney the less they like him.
Maybe it's those 75% of Catholics that oppose their Church's position on contraceptives?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
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