Originally Posted by Deb C

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

What exactly are you pushing for? You just acknowledged that the Catholic leaders are wrong.

I thought I was pretty clear in what I wrote about the hierarchy being wrong in insisting on no birth control. Hierarchy is different than the leaders who were urged to come to the White House to be convinced, for their support of the health care bill, that the new rules would not affect their belief system. Obama basically used them in the pursuit of getting the bill passed. Now, the very thing that he promised them wouldn't happen, has now become a mandate.

You still didn't answer the question. What are you pushing *for*?

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

You still didn't answer the question. What are you pushing *for*?

I'm not going to play this game of yours. You do it often when you don't want to accept someone's answers.

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Originally Posted by The Rani

tee heee ...Anyway, in summary of my opinion on this:If Catholics want to change what goes on in their own Church, that's cool.If the government or anyone else tries to do it, not so cool.

I would assume you're NOT cool with Ron Paul being cool with states not allowing people of color to attend college or Rand Paul being cool with businesses not serving brown people.What then is your conceptual differentiation? If the states or business said it was a religious thing for them then it would be cool with you? Or, if the states or business just wanted to discriminate against women it would be okay? Or, is it women behaving badly that triggers the being cool with it?It can't be that folks could choose not to work for the religious employers because that holds true with people not having to go to school in a certain state or eating at a particular restaurant whose belief system is that you are not fully human. Not trying to be snarky. I'm just confused. Maybe it’s a religious thing, but does that include Scientologists who like child labor or the guy on the street who says he’s Jesus as he pisses on your storefront window as a way to protect you from the devil? Maybe its religions with the appropriate govt license, but that creates a whole other sticky situation, no?Still confused but I would like to know, however, if the Catholic employers are going to cover erectile dysfunction, but perhaps best to let that sleeping dog lie.This guy had an interesting tweet -

]It's Always Been About Birth Control And SexI don't expect that even the liberals who have been denying this for years to ever come around, but it's never really been about abortion, it's always been about women not being properly punished for having unapproved sex. by Atrios at 18:26

I can see why, if true, that would be just about impossible for any one in our culture to admit.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Another reality check:

I don't see myself in that chart (except in the All Americans bar). Grrr.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

You still didn't answer the question. What are you pushing *for*?

I'm not going to play this game of yours. You do it often when you don't want to accept someone's answers.

Then don't answer the question...Though I think the implied answer is unfortunate.

Best...

Originally Posted by The Rani

Which states don't want to let brown people attend college? I know that happened in the past, but I didn't know that they were still trying.

Plenty of businesses get around certain regulations by calling themselves "clubs."
And I really couldn't care less if some white people want to go somewhere and eat all by themselves. It keeps those kinds of folks away from the rest of us.

As far as I know, nothing the Catholic Church promotes violates any current laws in the United States.
For those religions that promote things like human sacrifice, yes, I'd suggest those people find another country to live in.

Yea, I was talking about the past but one way to look at is the issue is the same - just the latest edition. The Paul's have made this more contemporary by suggesting it would be okay to return to the past - a states' rights or individual rights thingee.

And in the past, it was okay in the law to discriminate - or, at least it was okay in the eyes of the local judicial system - that's why the feds had to step in. Obamacare now means it is the law that contraceptives now have to be on the menu, and you are either lawfully exempt or you are not. So, the Church will be in violation of the law if they don't provide this entre on their other-than-church enterprises that employ non-Catholic types.

It seems like it comes down to how big a deal it is to someone, not directly involve, i.e., the providing of contraceptives relative to say human sacrifices. I can understand that, but from an operational standpoint there usually has to be some more exact and consistent benchmarks. Maybe sacrificing of human toes can be okay but not fingers, the line being drawn at the ankle.

eek, let's just leave it to the bureaucrats - just as long as they keep their hands off my Viagra – I don’t care if that was not in God’s Plan! Crap, I’m Catholic enough to know I’m going to hell for that.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Yes, and if Catholics really want to use contraception and get abortions, they can find another religion or break the rules ... and risk going to Hell, I suppose.
But that's their call, not anyone else's. Trying to frame it as a civil rights issue is kind of silly.

If it does become the law, Catholic groups will have to decide how to handle it. Probably the courts will eventually decide the matter, don't you think?
If they do, I have a feeling that they will rule the law to be unconstitutional.

White supremacy has never been a mandatory belief in any established religion.
Life beginning at conception has.

The Court already has with Equal Employment Opportunites with a Religious organization. Voted it down 9-0. Can this Country really afford to lose each and every Catholic Hospital and Clinic in this country. I see a big firing event happening very soon before this law is fully implemented; so it will be by Volunteerism, Independent Contractor's and re-classification of 'Job Titles'. I am not a fan of the insititution called the Roman Catholic Church, but I am a fan of the Big Guy in the Sky.

But hey, I thought the Church were idiot's in supporting this ObamaCare legislation in the first place.

Dark Days indeed.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Here's the reality of the situation:

Among all women who have had sex, 99% have ever used a contraceptive method other than natural family planning. This figure is virtually the same, 98%, among sexually experienced Catholic women.

So once again it's the 99% against the 1%, perhaps?

Since you may be the only person here with a confirmed uterus who cares about this topic, what do you see as a good outcome?

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Another reality check:

Oh, SNAP!!!

I'm laughing at all the people thinking that this will hurt Obama.

Liberals Believe in Separation of Church and State--But Only for Everyone Else?

Obama administration faces backlash over rule ordering birth control coverage

THE HILL:

“These kind of issues have a powerful symbolic hold on religious voters and could cost [Obama] votes in liberal working-class areas that would otherwise go toward the Democrat,” said Julian Zelizer, a professor of history and public affairs at Princeton University.

“[His] support is not deep enough that he can count on their loyalty regardless of his stand on these sorts of issues.”One former administration official went further, saying, “When you’re planning these types of decisions, you should never be surprised, and it seems like they were caught off guard a bit by the reaction of people like E.J Dionne.”

In a piece over the weekend, the Washington Post columnist, a fan of Obama, wrote that the administration “utterly botched” the issue and “threw his progressive Catholic allies under the bus,” giving more ammunition to those in the church who aim to derail the new healthcare law.

Douglas Kmiec, a prominent supporter of Obama in 2008 and the president’s former ambassador to Malta, said Monday that he might not support his reelection.

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/209017-obama-faces-backlash-over-birth-control-rule


CHURCH:

Wall Street Journal Op Ed on Religious Freedom

Religious freedom is the lifeblood of the American people, the cornerstone of American government. When the Founding Fathers determined that the innate rights of men and women should be enshrined in our Constitution, they so esteemed religious liberty that they made it the first freedom in the Bill of Rights.

In particular, the Founding Fathers fiercely defended the right of conscience. George Washington himself declared: "The conscientious scruples of all men should be treated with great delicacy and tenderness; and it is my wish and desire, that the laws may always be extensively accommodated to them." James Madison, a key defender of religious freedom and author of the First Amendment, said: "Conscience is the most sacred of all property."

Scarcely two weeks ago, in its Hosanna-Tabor decision upholding the right of churches to make ministerial hiring decisions, the Supreme Court unanimously and enthusiastically reaffirmed these longstanding and foundational principles of religious freedom. The court made clear that they include the right of religious institutions to control their internal affairs.

Yet the Obama administration has veered in the opposite direction. It has refused to exempt religious institutions that serve the common good—including Catholic schools, charities and hospitals—from its sweeping new health-care mandate that requires employers to purchase contraception, including abortion-producing drugs, and sterilization coverage for their employees.

http://www.usccb.org/about/media-rel...us-freedom.cfm

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

Since you may be the only person here with a confirmed uterus who cares about this topic, what do you see as the best outcome?

LMAO at the idea that my uterus is "confirmed," considering the context. Sorry. I thought it was funny.

The best outcome? That the Catholic hierarchy comes around to reality. But the church's thinking moves with the speed of a glacier.

In the meantime, people have gotten used to the idea that using contraception is normal, and they will continue to ignore the official teachings as they have for the past few decades.

Candidate Romney, for all of today's huffing and puffing about the issue, did the same thing in Massachusetts. I mean, isn't the guy going to take credit for anything he accomplished as that state's governor?

Oh, and Romney is lying when he claims that the morning-after pill is an "abortion pill." But no matter. It's all about "religious liberty."

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Originally Posted by summer in the fall

Since you may be the only person here with a confirmed uterus who cares about this topic, what do you see as a good outcome?

LMAO at the idea that my uterus is "confirmed," considering the context. Sorry. I thought it was funny.

Now that you put it that way, I can't stop laughing. LMFAO

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

The best outcome? That the Catholic hierarchy comes around to reality.

In other words, it moves through the media cycle...

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

But the church's thinking moves with the speed of a glacier.

True.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

In the meantime, people have gotten used to the idea that using contraception is normal, and they will continue to ignore the official teachings as they have for the past few decades.

So once it goes through the media cycle, like WMDs, folks will snap out of the trance...

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Candidate Romney, for all of today's huffing and puffing about the issue, did the same thing in Massachusetts. I mean, isn't the guy going to take credit for anything he accomplished as that state's governor?

That's fascinating. Particularly this line:

GOP Rivals Pounce on Romney’s ‘Assault on Religion’ Line

On the stump in Ohio, Gingrich also went after Romney. ”There’s been a lot of talk about the Obama administration’s attack on the Catholic church,” said Gingrich. “Well the fact is Gov. Romney insisted that Catholic hospitals give out abortion pills against their religious belief when he was governor. So you have a very similar pattern again. Over and over you get the same pattern.”
Mitt Romney continued his criticism of the Obama administration’s mandate to require institutions – including those with church-affiliations – to provide contraception under their health care plans.

So again, this about undermining Obama...or trying to.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Oh, and Romney is lying when he claims that the morning-after pill is an "abortion pill." But no matter. It's all about "religious liberty."

Hmmm...I was kinda hoping for a SCOTU showdown or a civil war based on contraception. A little disappointing. Maybe it'll still blow up and it'll be the impetus needed to finally get the single payer...

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Another reality check:

Well, well, well. Interesting split between Catholics and Evangelicals. I hope the White House saw this poll. I'm beginning to think there may be hope for the good ole USA yet. And by the way, James, where are you? Isolated on this one, it seems. . .

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

...
The best outcome? That the Catholic hierarchy comes around to reality. But the church's thinking moves with the speed of a glacier.

In the meantime, people have gotten used to the idea that using contraception is normal, and they will continue to ignore the official teachings as they have for the past few decades.

Candidate Romney, for all of today's huffing and puffing about the issue, did the same thing in Massachusetts. I mean, isn't the guy going to take credit for anything he accomplished as that state's governor?

Oh, and Romney is lying when he claims that the morning-after pill is an "abortion pill." But no matter. It's all about "religious liberty."

I think that the likely outcomes are 1. Obama backs off; 2. There is a protracted court battle;
3. The Catholic Church gets out of hospital business; 4. The Catholic Church changes its views( in ~ 1000 years).

Looks like "Frothy Mixture" Santorum is winning Minnesota and Missouri.

I know. It's incredible. It looks as if Obama has a much better chance than I thought.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Hardly:
Public Divided Over Exemptions for Religiously Affiliated Colleges & Hospitals; Support Exemptions for Churches

Interesting that the poll's focus is on "churches" which ARE exempt.

I think the numbers will change as the 75% of Catholics that oppose the Church's stance on contraceptives, before this came up, will begin to figure out that this is about the hospitals and schools that employ thousands of non-Catholics (and perhaps themselves who have as high a use of contraceptives as the rest of the population and wouldn't that be nice if it was free).

They'll soften their opposition enough to be willing to listen to a compromise.

I believe that compromise is in the works and will either be announced this week or that a group has been formed to find one.

Such a compromise could become a big win for Obama in the longer run. He will be seen as being sensitive and willing to accommodating and taking leadership over modifying a decision by one of his department heads. He will need to be able to thread the needle (hopefully better than the Koman Foundation did) between the Church and women's groups. It will be tricky, but I think everyone on both sides wants this to go away - and as such, it likely will.

The best outcome is they work a deal and the House GOP stands clearly in the way. Better still for the GOP presidential midgets get in an ugly one-upmanship on showing their intransigence and belligerence to a compromise that 75% of Catholics want.

Got my fingers crossed, and my popcorn.

Originally Posted by Odin

Looks like "Frothy Mixture" Santorum is winning Minnesota and Missouri.

Now, now Odin, let's keep that under the sheet, so to speak, for now.

Ricky is one of our three GOP friends who will be ripping Romney a new one all the way to convention.

Go, Ricky, go!!!

Hey Ricky, you're so fine -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvQex1RQ5G4

Mitt Romney's Super Bowl ad -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=CBgYqCsd_uw

Originally Posted by The Rani

Yes, and if Catholics really want to use contraception and get abortions, they can find another religion or break the rules ... and risk going to Hell, I suppose.
But that's their call, not anyone else's. Trying to frame it as a civil rights issue is kind of silly.

If it does become the law, Catholic groups will have to decide how to handle it. Probably the courts will eventually decide the matter, don't you think?
If they do, I have a feeling that they will rule the law to be unconstitutional.

White supremacy has never been a mandatory belief in any established religion.
Life beginning at conception has.

Business wise the solution is simple. The working people will simply loose their employment provided health insurance and then be forced by fed law (individual mandate) to aquire individual health insurance at their own expense. Ain't them there liberals supposed to be smart???

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

LMAO at the idea that my uterus is "confirmed," considering the context. Sorry. I thought it was funny.

The best outcome? That the Catholic hierarchy comes around to reality. But the church's thinking moves with the speed of a glacier.

In the meantime, people have gotten used to the idea that using contraception is normal, and they will continue to ignore the official teachings as they have for the past few decades.

Candidate Romney, for all of today's huffing and puffing about the issue, did the same thing in Massachusetts. I mean, isn't the guy going to take credit for anything he accomplished as that state's governor?

Oh, and Romney is lying when he claims that the morning-after pill is an "abortion pill." But no matter. It's all about "religious liberty."

Once again, this isn't about you and me or our personal views about birth control. This is about authority. As a so-called Christian, do you really want the government to have the authority to rule over your church or a government official to have the authority to dictate and control your preacher. THINK ABOUT IT KIFF. I mean, if the government says that killing certain people or groups is OK your preacher and church wouldn't have the power to oppose or preach that killing is bad.

CNN results, Republican caucuses and primaries:

Colorado

Santorum 40% -- Romney 35% -- Gingrich 13% -- Paul 12%. 100% of all precincts counted.

Minnesota

Santorum 45% -- Paul 27% -- Romney 17% -- Gingrich 11%. 86% counted.

Missouri

Santorum 55% -- Romney 25% -- Paul 12% -- Uncommitted 4% 99% counted.

Gingrich apparently was not on the ballot in Missouri.

In case you are curious, President Obama is running unopposed and is projected to win all delegates.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

The Court already has with Equal Employment Opportunites with a Religious organization. Voted it down 9-0. Can this Country really afford to lose each and every Catholic Hospital and Clinic in this country. I see a big firing event happening very soon before this law is fully implemented; so it will be by Volunteerism, Independent Contractor's and re-classification of 'Job Titles'. I am not a fan of the insititution called the Roman Catholic Church, but I am a fan of the Big Guy in the Sky.

But hey, I thought the Church were idiot's in supporting this ObamaCare legislation in the first place.

Dark Days indeed.

Well, if it actually goes through, the working class Democrats who elected him are going to end up being the idiots as they watch as their employment provided plans are disposed of and replaced with individual policies. Welcome to our world. Providing for individual insurance isn't easy and it ain't cheap either.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

Well, if it actually goes through, the working class Democrats who elected him are going to end up being the idiots as they watch as their employment provided plans are disposed of and replaced with individual policies. Welcome to our world. Providing for individual insurance isn't easy and it ain't cheap either.

That is why we need a tax-funded public option.

American corporations find that doing the manufacturing in Canada profitable for the simple reason that a public system can be even more cost-effective than the profit-driven private bureaucracy that we have.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Obviously there is very little excuse for unwanted pregnancies nowadays. I know no birth control method is foolproof, but I can't understand why the right wing is so opposed to it.

Right wingers don't like the government sticking its nose where they think or believe the governments nose doesn't belong. Do you get it?